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Old 02-23-2020, 09:19 PM
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Default .45 HBWC in 45 acp?

Somewhere in the past working at an LGS I bought some .45 HBWC, 190 gr in .454 dia from an estate that came in. Don’t have a 45 Colt, would like to use them in 45 acp. Can they be loaded flush with the case mouth or in one of the 2 grooves? I use 231 only in handgun loads.

Can use in any of 4 revolvers in .45 acp in the safe or a CZ 97 that went to Cajun gun works for an accuracy upgrade. Larry
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:22 PM
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45 ACP takes .451 or .452 diameter.
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:02 PM
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Somewhere in the past working at an LGS I bought some .45 HBWC, 190 gr in .454 dia from an estate that came in. Dont have a 45 Colt, would like to use them in 45 acp. Can they be loaded flush with the case mouth or in one of the 2 grooves? I use 231 only in handgun loads.

Can use in any of 4 revolvers in .45 acp in the safe or a CZ 97 that went to Cajun gun works for an accuracy upgrade. Larry
Are they hard cast? Or soft swagged?

They look cast, but the pictures could be deceiving

Either way you can use them

Since they are sized for the 45 Long Colt, there is the possibility of heavy leading of the barrel

Your best bet for performance is to load them long into the 45ACP casings, just so the lube groove is in the case and use them in the revolvers. The cylinder throats will size down soft swagged lead very nicely. If they are hard cast you will have to see how they react

It needs to be a mid-range load. High pressure loads cause HBWCs to have the skirts torn off and left in the barrel. The only possible way to go over pressure with this projectile is to fire a second round while a skirt still remains in the barrel. Even with that, you would not reach a point where catastrophic pressure would occur

Just about 5 grains of 231 should be close. Start around 4.4 grains and work up.
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:51 PM
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As noted above, use 'em in a Revolver. The US 1917 and the earlier Model 25 S&Ws have fairly large throats (.454-.456) in their charge holes, so the .454" diameter would be advantageous in those two revolvers.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:18 AM
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45 ACP takes .451 or .452 diameter.
Not if it's in a revolver.. Use what chambers and fits the cylinder.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:22 AM
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If you load them on the bottom groove They should approximate a 185 SWC I would start with 1 WW231 load of 5.3 grains and work up or down from there. You don't want to go too fast a "Blow" the skirt on the hollow base. Out of any 45 ACP revolver they should be fantastic!

If you wand to try flush seated wadcutters, I would be guessing, but 3.5 of WW231 looks like as good of place to start as any. After you fire one, look for all the normal pressure signs AND check the barrel: lots of unburnt powder was too low of charge & almost no unburnt powder you are probably there, or even faster than normal wadcutter velocities (some guns run dirty, some clean, with normal 231 loads, gauge cleanliness by previous experience in that gun!)

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Old 02-24-2020, 06:24 AM
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No- it will not feed unless you have an over size chamber, I have one 45 acp I have to size to .451. When you load that bullet the case will swell. Load one and check with your case gauge or take your barrel and do the plunk test. It has to drop in and fit flush with the barrel and have a little wiggle. Then you can worry about feeding. Looking at the bullet it should handle 900 fps without a problem and would be fun to bench rest.

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Old 02-24-2020, 09:51 AM
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Thanks for the replies, have some experimenting to do. All but one of the .45 acp revolvers in the safe are 625s. Only bought the HBWCs because I never saw them before. In the loading manual downstairs , 5.0 grains of 231 seemed a good common safe charge between the 180 gr & 200 gr lead bullets listed. I weighed 3 of the HBWCs on the powder scale to see what the weight is, the box wasnt marked.

Like the idea of trying to seat them flush so they can be used in the CZ 97 hopefully eliminating feeding problems. The 97 is crazy accurate, its my high end.45 auto costing way less then some of the big name 1911s out there.

Will use the single stage press trying to find a load before putting them on the Dillon.

Anyone else can chime in so there are more ideas to work with. Thanks, Larry
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:06 PM
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That is probably a swagged bullet so keep it around 700-750 fps for accuracy.
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Old 02-24-2020, 12:58 PM
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Those would be great in my 25-5 with large throats. A pinch of BE and a guy might have a good PPC gun.
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Old 02-24-2020, 05:41 PM
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Revolvers ... maybe yes , depending on cylinder throat dimensions .
I have one revolver that will not chamber any rounds loaded with cast bullets sized .452" , unless it is sized .451" the round will not fully chamber . Throats and bbl measure .451" but that's an unusually tight revolver .

1911... ??? If the rounds chamber they may not feed on the other hand I had a Star Model PS 45 acp that would chamber and feed the Lyman # 452491 45 revolver SWC bullet with no modifications...
So you just don't know until you try them out .

Give them both a try might be a fun experiment !
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:30 PM
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Depends mainly on whether a slightly larger bullet diameter creates a cartridge which won't fit into the chambers. It should have some slight looseness and slide into the chambers easily. You want a little slop to allow the case to expand slightly to release the bullet. Not a good idea if you have to force the cartridge into the chamber, as that will raise chamber pressure.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:34 PM
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Not trying to be stupid but I tried to measure the diameter of the holes in the front of the cylinder. No way near .451, more like .448 on 2 guns. Either I am doing something wrong or are my calipers are off. Larry
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:40 AM
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A jacketed bullet should be .451. Pull one and see how it fits in the throat. If the wad cutters are .454 swagged they will go down the barrel anyway--just check every few shots for leading. If you lived next door I would loan you a sizer. I am thinking around 2.5 of Bullseye if seated flush.

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Old 02-29-2020, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
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Not trying to be stupid but I tried to measure the diameter of the holes in the front of the cylinder. No way near .451, more like .448 on 2 guns. Either I am doing something wrong or are my calipers are off. Larry
The chamber mouths are round, the sides of your calipher blades are flat. You get something like this: (I Try using only the tips and realize you're still going to be approximate, not right on the money. Accurately measuring holes is done with pin gauges for a reason.

Looking at the length of those bullets but being unable to measure them, I'd be reluctant to try to seat them flush with the case mouth as you're reducing effective case volume. Match them up with some truncated cone shape 230 gr and see where the base of the bullet would be if seated flush. Load tables are based on the assumption that the base of the bullet is going to establish a given case volume. Flush seating of a wadcutter designed for a much longer case is going to make major changes in case volume.
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:01 PM
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Never knew about pin gauges! Duh! Retired from body work. So being Polish, I pounded a bullet thru the cylinder of 2 guns and got a .451 reading. As I was setting up the Dillon 550 for 180 gr SWC I seated one of the DEWC’s in a case. Got one of the revolvers out and it would not chamber. Guess resizing is in the future.

I doubt if any will be loaded flush with the case mouth, afraid of high pressure even with the hollow base. Thanks for the offer 4barrel, loading HBWC in .32 & .38 and want to shoot them in .45 acp also. Larry
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Old 02-29-2020, 07:40 PM
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Hi Larry,

It's a huge advantage in the 25 and 625 revolvers in 45 ACP if your cast bullets can provide a press fit into the throats.
These revolvers don't have throats in the conventional sense.
Whereas you find a gentle conical transition from the chamber area forward to the throat (think 38 Special, etc), with the ACP it's a hard shoulder with no transition between chamber and throats. Of course, this is necessary for headspace purposes when using a rimless case. Unfortunately, often this sharp shoulder will shave off a bit of lead, which is not good for accuracy. Also, it builds up making continued shooting more difficult...chambers get gummed up, cartridges don't fully seat, and the cylinder becomes difficult to turn as the casehead rubs against the recoil shield.
A press fit cast bullet will get the bullet started and aligned with the throat, kind of like your Hmmerli free pistol when closing the breech presses the driving band of the 22 LR bullet into the throat of the barrel. This is a bit different than DWALT's concern about the cartridge itself being tight in the chamber.

Do any if your revolvers allow those HBWCs to be dropped or pressed through the cylinder throats?

Jim

PS: cool bullets! Wish I had the mold!

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Old 02-29-2020, 08:09 PM
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Hi Jim, the 180 gr SWCs downstairs can be pounded through the cylinder easily and the HBWCs mentioned here wont start. The one HBWC loaded into a case would not fit in a cylinder. The diameter is too big. Trying to borrow a Lee sizer, may have to buy one.

Gonna load 50 180 gr SWCs, what is a good crimp measurement? Tuesday morning at the range may be .45 acp day.

Oh yeah Jim, the Hammerli free pistol is up & running for Tuesday morning also. Thanks for your help on the Hammerli, using break free clp till I get some watch oil. Larry
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Old 03-01-2020, 10:06 PM
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Looks like .452 will be the size I will be shooting. Good friend just cast some bullets in .45 yesterday and will lend me his sizer. Larry
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:06 PM
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I know everyone had a hard time sleeping till you heard the conclusion to this thread. The .45 HBWC’s won’t work. Seated one sticking out by the forward groove. The step in the cylinder for the .45 case stopped it from goin in the cylinder. Done playing, the sizing to .452 would have been OK. Would really like to have shot them out of the 625PC. Oh well, Larry
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Old 03-19-2020, 08:40 AM
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Sorry to hear they did not work for you.

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Old 03-19-2020, 09:57 AM
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Not a total waste of time ...you have proven that .454 bullets won't work in your 45 acp revolvers .
But save them because you just never know what handgun will walk into your life and might need a .454 dia. bullet .
I went my entire shooting and reloading life (50+ years) not owning a 9mm Luger pistol , never cared for it , about 3 years ago my Dad walks in and hands me a WWII era Walther P-38 and says I don't have any use for this anymore , you take it . All of a sudden I'm a 9mm Luger owner and that unused set of CH 9mm reloading dies (bought in 1969) got put to use ... I rather like the little round now .
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Old 03-19-2020, 11:34 AM
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Actually tried one seated to the top of the case and will try 3.0 gr of 231 before giving up. Still intrigued with shooting them. Need abt an hour of play time, Larry
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:37 PM
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Back again with some rounds to shoot. Loaded 5 rounds with 3.0 gr 231 and 6 with 3.5. Will shoot them Tuesday morning paying special attention that the bullet exists the barrel. Not sure what to expect. If this works, the rest of the bullets will be sized to .452 and a mass reloading effort will be started. Thanks for your ideas of starting loads with the bullet seated even with the top of the case.

I tried the full moon clip with 6 rounds in the cylinder , they went in and the cylinder turned freely. Took a lot of wiggling to get them in, not like round nose bullets with a .45 acp revolver. Larry
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Old 03-21-2020, 08:59 PM
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Hope things work out. In what revolver are you using them?

I load a 240 grain WC and chamfered chambers help get them down in.

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Old 03-22-2020, 09:05 PM
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Hi Kevin, have 3 625’s right now and will try them in a CZ 97 that went to Cajun gun works to be accurized. Come on Tuesday morning at the Coronavirus shoot, Larry
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Old 03-22-2020, 09:19 PM
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Load a dummy.
Run dummy through sizing die.
Should chamber in revolver if not overlength.
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Old 03-26-2020, 06:51 AM
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Larry, how did they work for you?

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Old 03-26-2020, 07:46 AM
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Ended up on Monday night they shut the club down for everything so I didnt get a chance to shoot them. Cant even go just to sit and BS!! Wish I could shoot 4 rounds in the back yard, 2 of each powder charge to see if they clear the barrel. Have the Dillon set up for large primers and if I knew what powder charge would would work I could be loading a bunch up then change to small primers for .38 & .32.

At NOSC we shoot a double action revolver league for 8 weeks and that is postponed till?? Love shooting that also, challenging match. Larry
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:56 PM
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Been a while, the club reopened and I finally shot the HBWCs in .45 acp. Had 5 with 3.0 gr 231 and 6 with 3.5 gr of 231. The 3 gr loads were very mild shooting and The 3.5 gr had a little more recoil but were OK. Both were fairly accurate. When I went to change the target, the 3 gr bullets were on the floor. Not enough power to penetrate the conveyer belt covering the metal plates and bounced off the belt to where you walked. The 3.5 gr must have penetrated. Glad these worked.

Tried to shoot 180 gr SWC next and couldnt put them in the cylinder because of the ring created from firing the shorter over all length of the HBWCs. Scrubbed the cyl holes and everything was OK. The cylinder got dirty again so I quit shooting and went to a different gun. So they can be used in .45 acp which is great so I can shoot them up. Larry
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:40 PM
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In my experience, the 4506 series would probably feed those!
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Old 05-05-2020, 07:48 PM
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HOLD ON, Partner!
Surely you are going to use the excuse to purchase a .45 Colt caliber Revolver so you can use those bullets
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Old 05-06-2020, 01:13 PM
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Jebus35745 Jebus35745 is offline
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.45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp?  
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Jimmy, they work in the 45acp. Dont need another caliber to load for. I resized them to .452 to use in the acp. Larry
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Old 05-07-2020, 09:45 PM
StrawHat StrawHat is offline
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.45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp? .45 HBWC in 45 acp?  
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Isn’t it grand when a plan comes together?

Load them to 900 fps and use them for SD!

Kevin
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