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Old 03-10-2020, 12:47 AM
38SPL HV 38SPL HV is offline
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Default 358429 in 357 Magnum cases

In the past, I loaded the Lyman 358429 in 357 Magnum cases over the front driver band to accommodate the “shorter” S&W Mod 28 cylinders. Never cared too much doing this...the OAL varied because of the roll crimp “pushing” the projectile slightly further into the case. I did chronograph the “over the shoulder” load with 11.0 grs 2400 and hit over 1,130 FPS in my Ruger 4 5/8 inch BH...the OAL was 1.540 as opposed to the 1.553 recommended by Lyman (crimping over the shoulder pushed the 358429 down from the suggested OAL 1.553 to 1.540).

I’ve since been loading the 358429 and crimping them in the crimp groove with 12.0 grs of 2400...they fit in the longer Ruger BH (New Model) cylinder (my S&W Model 28’s are long departed hopefully making their current owners very happy). Good and very accurate load and I intend to chronograph them in a couple of weeks when time allows.

Yes, Keith made the 358429 for 38 Special cases, perhaps I’ll just stick with this setup. My load in 38-44 with the 358429 uses 11.0 grs 2400...a very accurate and true 38-44 load, but for use ONLY in 357 Magnum or S&W Heavy Duty/Outdoorsman heavy frame revolvers. I color the primer red with a marker and put them in boxes marked “38-44 - USE ONLY in Ruger Blackhawk 357 Magnum”

Appreciate any of your experiences with the 358429 in 38-44 and 357 Magnums.

(Sorry if I’m constantly posting about 38/357 loads, they are the only revolvers I have. I did have 41 and 44 Magnums in the past but when you get a little “long in the tooth” as I, you like to throttle things down a bit to still enjoy this great pastime...thank you for your patience).

Here are pics of 358429 in 38-44 and 357 Mag (short and long) configurations.
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Old 03-10-2020, 01:41 AM
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I no longer load .357 but used the #358429 bullet quite a bit some years ago in several .357 revolvers. My old notes indicate two OALs: 1.55" and 1.59". Most accurate load was 13 grs. #2400 and a linotype bullet in a 6" M27.

I've also used the hollow point version, #358439 with an OAL of 1.59" and 12 grs. #2400 or 14 grs. 296. As I recall, the HP was slightly more accurate than the #358429, but that's not in my somewhat sketchy notes. No reason for the hollow point to be any more accurate; the difference may have been slight.

There's certainly nothing wrong with the #358429 bullet, but I pretty much got away from it altogether and began using the Hensley & Gibbs #51 160 grain SWC for both .38 Special and .357. It was a bit more accurate in both cartridges and it was designed specifically for the .357.

In the spirit of this thread, however, I may now have to cast up some #358429 bullets and prepare some .357 brass.
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Old 03-10-2020, 01:52 AM
38SPL HV 38SPL HV is offline
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Great post, thank you

Good night to all from Northern Nevada

Shoot straight tomorrow.
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:37 AM
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You have way more crimp than needed. Just look at a factory bullet and adjust accordingly. The brass will last a lot longer.

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Old 03-10-2020, 06:01 AM
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I have loaded that 358429 long and short. If I use A2400 I use 13.5 gr and a standard primer. [large frame revolvers] Loaded long my OAL is 1.640"-1.635" and most accurate in my guns at that charge weight. Now, with the same exact charge weight, loaded long it chrono's 1250fps, loaded short 1.545" the same charge gets 1360 fps. There is no change in the accuracy, both shoot 1-1 1/4" at 25 yds. My barrel lenghts are 6" and 6 1/2".
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
You have way more crimp than needed. Just look at a factory bullet and adjust accordingly. The brass will last a lot longer.
That's a lot more crimp than I use also, but if it works well for someone, that's fine. There are always exceptions and handloading "rules" sometimes aren't firm.
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:55 AM
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Great thread. The BH allows that bullet to be loaded right for the .357 S&W Mag. Never understood the shorter cylinder in the N-frame. Other than sleeving a .45 LC or .44 Mag. cylinder and trimming the barrel stub and rethroating, I don't know that there is anything to be done to have a longer cylinder in a N-frame. Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:40 AM
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I have used that bullet for yrs . My favorite load for many yrs was 7.0grs of Unique with the bullet loaded in a 357 case and crimped in the crimp groove . I found you can slow it down or speed it up and the accuracy was always great , for me . I had a 6" model 19 .
When I first got the Lyman 358429 mold in 2 cavity it would cast bullets measuring .355 , at it's best . I called Lyman and the gal said that's std . I waited a couple of months , called back again and got a different gal . She told me to send the mold back with a specimen cast . It came back 3 weeks later with a note saying it was undersize and they had recut it . Now , using Lyman #2 they drop @ .360 . I am needing to cast up another batch pretty soon . Regards, Paul

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Old 03-10-2020, 10:13 AM
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I understand about the throttling back. I rarely shoot full-charge .41s and .44s anymore, and when I do, it isn’t too many of them.

I never really took a shine to the 358429. The H&G 051 and the 358156 both outshoot it, at least for me. Also agree that crimping over the driving band is a huge nuisance if you’re trying to maintain a consistent OAL. A bit less crimp might be helpful in that regard. I bought a Lee FCD die to see if it would help minimize the problem. It didn’t. Roll, taper, or FCD - the varying OAL was a problem for me with all three, so I just gave up on the idea. I dislike using .38 cases in a .357 chamber, so I’ve just put the 358429 on the permanent no-fly list. Mr. Keith did pretty well with his .41 and .44 bullets. Two out of three is not terrible.

Lately I’ve been branching out a bit with the Lee 160 gr. flat-nose bullet, and some different powders I’ve not normally used in my “.357” loads, which really aren’t .357 loads at all, since they’re usually only going a bit over 1000 FPS. I’ve also tinkered with some full wadcutters in .357 cases, just to see what I come up with. .357 loading is fun and low-stress compared to the hard-kickers.

But back to your observation about moving away from bigger guns, I can certainly understand. If you’ve a few different bullet molds and a few different .357s, you can keep busy for a long time and have a lot of fun before you learn all there is to know.

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Old 03-10-2020, 12:50 PM
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My Ruger GP100's cylinder allows seating the 358429 in crimp groove. I use a good stiff charge of H110 and like the results.
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I have used that bullet for yrs . My favorite load for many yrs was 7.0grs of Unique with the bullet loaded in a 357 case and crimped in the crimp groove . I found you can slow it down or speed it up and the accuracy was always great , for me . I had a 6" model 19 .
When I first got the Lyman 358429 mold in 2 cavity it would cast bullets measuring .355 , at it's best . I called Lyman and the gal said that's std . I waited a couple of months , called back again and got a different gal . She told me to send the mold back with a specimen cast . It came back 3 weeks later with a note saying it was undersize and they had recut it . Now , using Lyman #2 they drop @ .360 . I am needing to cast up another batch pretty soon . Regards, Paul
I have two .360 molds --a 4 hole .360 Lyman and an over size .361 <Lucky>Lee and you can cast for a 38 S&W without resizing and tumble lube.
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Old 03-10-2020, 03:38 PM
38SPL HV 38SPL HV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
I have loaded that 358429 long and short. If I use A2400 I use 13.5 gr and a standard primer. [large frame revolvers] Loaded long my OAL is 1.640"-1.635" and most accurate in my guns at that charge weight. Now, with the same exact charge weight, loaded long it chrono's 1250fps, loaded short 1.545" the same charge gets 1360 fps. There is no change in the accuracy, both shoot 1-1 1/4" at 25 yds. My barrel lenghts are 6" and 6 1/2".
Right on money and thank you for the data...chronographing tells the truth - differences in OAL and impact to velocity (and pressure) becomes very apparent.
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Old 03-10-2020, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
You have way more crimp than needed. Just look at a factory bullet and adjust accordingly. The brass will last a lot longer.

I have found that when using cast bullets, 3/4 turn on my crimping die gives me better powder burn using 2400 powder, and improved ES/SDs. With my standard 38 Spl loads, 1/2 turn is adequate with Bullseye and WW231. I do use 3/4 turn in 38 Spl +P loads with Power Pistol to stop bullet creep in my S&W J frame Airweight. It works for me.

For reference, take a look at pic below of a factory Remington 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP load and it’s Remington applied heavy roll crimp. Common practice for lead and cast bullets earmarked for revolvers.
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Last edited by 38SPL HV; 03-10-2020 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:34 AM
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Crimping has given me pause in the past. So much that it caused me to purchase several used die sets from eBay. Redding Profile, both flavors of Lee, carbide and collet crimp dies, Hornady cowboy series and carbide and steel versions of RCBS, Pacific, and Redding. Tick marks on dies and press definitely helped in producing repeatable results. Segregated lots of brass by headstamp, and cartridge length also helped. Crimp applied to Remington brass and PMC brass are not the same in my experience. My go-to crimp die is from an old version of Redding that was pulled from a steel version resizer set. I screw the die down on a loaded case until it stops turning using the force applied by my thumb and pointer finger, I raise the press handle and turn the die down one tick mark less than half for standard loads, and half for heavy loads. I crimp and tighten lock ring and inspect the freshly crimped round for a slightly rolled in lip into crimp groove that doesn't catch the finger nail when dragged over.
My round about question is do you have any drama with projectiles being dimensionally changed by your crimp settings? I can imagine brass wall thickness and diameter of bullet will have bearing here. My crimp die was chosen by it being the crimp die that passed the largest pin guage of my dies tested. My bullets are sized to .358".

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Old 03-11-2020, 01:11 PM
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I found that the 158gr lead did well in my Mags and used the WC or RN bullets for my use.

One of my most accurate loads was a 158gr lead round nose at a OAL of 1.66" with 2400 powder doing 1039fps.
A warmer load of Green Dot at 1281 out of the 6" barrel was doable, also.

Good shooting.
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Old 03-12-2020, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38SPL HV View Post
I have found that when using cast bullets, 3/4 turn on my crimping die gives me better powder burn using 2400 powder, and improved ES/SDs. With my standard 38 Spl loads, 1/2 turn is adequate with Bullseye and WW231. I do use 3/4 turn in 38 Spl +P loads with Power Pistol to stop bullet creep in my S&W J frame Airweight. It works for me.

For reference, take a look at pic below of a factory Remington 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP load and it’s Remington applied heavy roll crimp. Common practice for lead and cast bullets earmarked for revolvers.
I got rid of my J frames because warm loads made my +p trigger finger bleed.

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-12-2020 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 03-12-2020, 05:11 PM
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My Blackhawk likes the 358429 but I tend to shoot more of the 180 and 160 wide flat noses because of 4 cavity molds vs 2 cavity. That bullet is also very accurate in a model 15.
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Old 03-17-2020, 06:48 PM
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I seated the 358429 to 1.553” OAL per Lyman’s reloading cast data and then tapered crimped with my Redding taper crimp die...there was absolutely no change in the OAL (as roll crimp had with this bullet over the forward edge).

I shot some rounds this morning in my Ruger Blackhawk and unfired rounds showed no bullet creep resulting from the taper crimp. I need to get to the range for accuracy and chronograph testing.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:44 PM
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OK, how about the 686 and other L-frame Smiths? Do they have long enough cylinders to take the '429 seated full out from the 357 as designed? I've always wondered why in the world the N-frame Smiths were built with short cylinders... it's almost like they were meant to be too limiting. I can't believe that the S&W engineers were unaware of the Keith design for his version of the 38-44/38 Extra Special that was already in existence.

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Old 03-18-2020, 11:24 AM
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L frame Smiths should be good to go with bullet crimped in its regular crimping groove but not 27/28s (older). I actually like the look of the “shorter” cylinders.

The 358429 crimped “long” will also not fit your Ruger SP101s. I’ll learned the hard way trying to load the long seated 358429 in my shorter cylinder SP101 and I wasted a trip to the range.

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Old 03-18-2020, 01:06 PM
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I have the 44 version, the 429421. Didn't know they made one in 357. I do have a Lee 170 grain SWC. It has worked well in all applications. I need to make more.
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Old 03-18-2020, 02:56 PM
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At the time, the #358429 was a .38 Special bullet only; it was not designed for the use in the .357 Magnum but was adapted for such use. The H&G #51 was designed specifically for the .357 Magnum. It still works at least as well as anything developed since.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:58 PM
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Not to hijack the thread , just an alternate thought . I had Tom @ Accurate mold make the Lyman 358156 bullet mold in plain base , san the gas check . It originally had a gas check . It was designed by Ray Thompson , has 2 crimp grooves . When loaded in a 38 special case and crimped in the lower crimp grooves it about equals the case capacity of a standard bullet loaded in a 357 case . It weighs in @ about 162 grs so it closely matches the Keith swc in weight , seated in the upper crimp groove and loaded in a 357 case it loads in N-frame revolvers . It is a real favorite , a very accurate bullet that I have cast thousands in the past . When I didn't have many 357 cases , but a bucket of 38's I did as Skeeter did , loaded it on top of 13.5grs of 2400 in a 38special case and crimped the bullet in the lower crimp groove to get 357 magnum performance . It was Charles " Skeeter " Skelton's favorite 357 bullet fired out of a 5" model 27 . Regards, Paul

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Old 03-18-2020, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
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Not to hijack the thread , just an alternate thought . I had Tom @ Accurate mold make the Lyman 358156 bullet mold in plain base , san the gas check . It originally had a gas check . It was designed by Ray Thompson , has 2 crimp grooves . When loaded in a 38 special case and crimped in the lower crimp grooves it about equals the case capacity of a standard bullet loaded in a 357 case . It weighs in @ about 162 grs so it closely matches the Keith swc in weight , seated in the upper crimp groove and loaded in a 357 case it loads in N-frame revolvers . It is a real favorite , a very accurate bullet that I have cast thousands in the past . When I didn't have many 357 cases , but a bucket of 38's I did as Skeeter did , loaded it on top of 13.5grs of 2400 in a 38special case and crimped the bullet in the lower crimp groove to get 357 magnum performance . It was Charles " Skeeter " Skelton's favorite 357 bullet fired out of a 5" model 27 . Regards, Paul
I really like the 358156 and have them in solid and HP versions. I also use the bottom crimp groove in 38-44 over 6.0 grs Unique or 11.0 grs 2400 for use only in 357 Magnum heavy frames. Great bullet but use it mainly for my 38-44 loads.
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