Bulky Powder for 357

[cds43016]

My Stepson is developing an interest in reloading 357 Mag. I currently load 4.3 grains of 231 with a SNS 158 grain SWC coated bullet, Starline brass and CCI 500 primers. This is a very light but also very accurate load. I loaded many thousands of these over the years.

The only thing I don’t like about this load is that it doesn’t fill the case very well. It’s more of a dusting than a load. If you’re not careful a double charge or a squib load is hard to spot in such a long dark case with this load. It takes a quadruple charge to fill the case. Not a good combination for a new reloader.

I’m looking for a bulkier powder to use with this bullet that meters well.

I thought about Trail Boss since it is advertised as a bulky powder. The Hodgdon web site lists a load of 3.2 to 4.2 grains for a 158 grain lead bullet. If this fills the case better because of the powder’s doughnut shape, I wonder how well it would meter in my Lee Auto Drum Powder Measure. Also how well does such a light load fill the case?

Any other powder recommendations for this bullet and standard primers for a light load?

As always thanks in advance for your input.

[Fishslayer]

231 is a faster powder than you really want for true .357 Magnum performance.

I like 2400. You can use standard primers but my 686 no dash isn't really fond of them. It's fairly user friendly but will start leaving gobs of yellow moosh if you download it too far.

For powderpuff target loads I use Green Dot. It's about 1/3 more bulky than Bullseye. It doesn't fill the case but a double charge is fairly obvious if you're paying attention. It meters "OK" in my Auto Disc. 4gr under a 158gr cast or plated is my go to.

[iouri]

When I've started to reload I've picked 2400 for 357 for exactly this reason - double charge will overflow the case. Not as economical as 231, though.

[Kurusu]

If the point is downloading .357 Magnum, just use .38 SPL brass.

If not. VV N110 will give good performance starting at around 18 grs and it fills the case about 90%. It meters very well too.

[joe44va]

Trail Boss works well for me. Use about 90% fill and magnum primers.

[Nevada Ed]

The "Best" powder for a beginner is Trail Boss.
A full load in a .357 case with a 158 lead bullet hits around 800fps.

IMR4227 at 12 grs will put out around 980fps as well as a medium load of Green Dot at around 900fps but with this faster powder
I do check all the cases powder levels, before I reach for my bullets, using my single stage loader.

[Eddie Southgate]

FFFg or cartridge grade Pyrodex dipped . Elmer said start with Black Powder and go to smokeless after you feel confident that you know what you are doing .

[cowboy4evr]

The old " standby " Unique does a pretty good job . 7.0 grs was my carry load for many yrs . It does not fill the case , but a double charge is very easy to spot . 9-10 grs of Blue Dot does a good job of adding a lot of powder to the case and gives you good 357 performance . 4227 will give you the most case fill but it needs pretty high pressure to burn effectively . Regards, Paul

[glowe]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

The "Best" powder for a beginner is Trail Boss. A full load in a .357 case with a 158 lead bullet hits around 800fp . . .

Totally agree, since the OP stated light loading, there is not a better powder out there for that purpose. With the .357, you can load it right up to the base of the seated bullet and still not break 900 fps. Do not compress, but rather measure the exact depth of a seated bullet, then load a case to just under that line by hand and weigh the charge. I use a dipper and scale for most of my Trail Boss loads. Can't go wrong and definitely cannot double charge.

[CH4]

For poking holes in paper and beer cans, it’s hard to beat Trail Boss

[Univibe]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

If the point is downloading .357 Magnum, just use .38 SPL brass.

If not. VV N110 will give good performance starting at around 18 grs and it fills the case about 90%. It meters very well too.

No, keep using .357 brass and download it to .38 spec, or anything in between. I use only .357 brass and I download my rounds.

Use a slow powder like AA#9, 2400, or IMR 4227 for the full house loads. Unique or AA#5 is better for midrange loads (1000 fps or so).

[Rogeronimo]

I use 3N38 at max. Stuffs the case, doesn't start a grass fire. Might be saltier than what you're after.

[BE Mike]

Filling the case shouldn't be THE determining factor. You have already been given two top choices (Unique or 2400). If your stepson is responsible enough to shoot a handgun safely, then these powders will be fine. When I first started reloading, it was .38 SPL with Hercules Bullseye. There is way too much thought given these days to doing everything we can to keep people from making mistakes. Just tell your stepson to be careful and not have any distractions while reloading.

[38SPL HV]

In the 357 Magnum, I like Unique and cast bullets for velocities from 950 - 1,100 FPS in my Ruger 4 5/8 inch Blackhawk. I like 2400 for 1,100 - 1,200 FPS (you can crank them up a bit more of course but I prefer “entry level” 357 Mag loads).

Unique and 2400 are all you need for your 357 Magnum needs. I’ve tried other powders but keep coming back to these reliable and time honored powders...plus there is tons of load data for both

[HorizontalMike]

I use Vihtavuori N105 for all of my .357 158xtp loads. N105 has a relatively high VMD of 0.0725 and it fills a .357 cartridge rather full. IMO, that is important in that it makes a "double load" rather impossible and shows/overflows immediately in such an incidence.

Additionally, I buy 8-12lb at a time, in order to make sure that my N105 is from the "same batch/lot". That way once a .357 load is perfected, I do not have to worry about variances between lots. I do the same with HS6 and my .38 loads, maintaining a large store of a single lot of powder.

For more info, go to the VV website for load data.

As others have mentioned, compare multiple manuals just to keep abreast of loading trends. I use the Lyman 49th and 50th manuals as well as the Richard Lee "Modern Reloading". Granted, the Lee manual is derived from multiple sources, however it serves well when comparing it to the other sources you should acquire...

[glowe]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

. . . There is way too much thought given these days to doing everything we can to keep people from making mistakes. Just tell your stepson to be careful and not have any distractions while reloading.

Have to totally disagree about trusting a teen or pre-teen step-son to do everything correctly when just starting to reload! [I]Just tell your stepson to be careful!?!?!?!?/I] Anything that can go wrong will go wrong is my motto. At the very least, make sure you check the cases before the bullet seating stage. After-all you are not talking about a minor issue when double charging 357 brass. It is your hand and/or your stepson's hand at the least that are at risk!

I will never shoot anything that someone else reloads, even if they have done it for decades. The biggest reasons for that is that I have made a handful (no pun intended) of mistakes over the past 40 years of reloading and I know it can happen. I also do not want anybody to feel responsible for anything that might happen on the range.

One suggestion would be to only use a single stage press to start and weigh out every powder charge. Working your way through reloading in batch stages help novice reloaders better understand the process. Sizing then checking, repriming then checking, belling the case & powder drop then checking, bullet seating & crimping then checking. When done in batches of 50, it allow one to carefully review the results of every step before moving on. I have started out several reloaders this way, having them do 100 cases at a time and I check their work before proceeding to the next step and finding errors with almost every novice, some minor and some potentially major.

To bring this to a close, I will review one instance when shooting with a friend. We were both shooting Uberti 44-40 Henry rifles. About 10 rounds into his first tube full of reloads, my friend and I heard a loud report. Checking his gun, the barrel had split open about half-way down! For those of you that are familiar with these rifles, a new barrel is about half the cost of the gun, not to mention a dangerous issue. We were practicing rapid fire rounds for a CASS event at a target just 25 yards downrange.

We went back and I started pulling his bullets of his remaining 40 reloads. I found 2 rounds with no powder and two with double charges. We all know that a primer alone can send a round partially down the barrel and can only assume it was followed up by a charged (or double charged bullet from a temporary plugged drop tube) bullet on a collision course about mid-way down the barrel. We reviewed his pulled target to find that all the cases he fired had struck the target, including a couple of not so round holes. Fortunately no injuries except to his wallet, but a costly mistake none the less.

[scooter123]

This is not a powder suggestion, it's simply a method that helps insure that an over/under charge is caught when it can be easily corrected.

I've always loaded with a single stage press because it produces enough ammunition for my needs and I enjoy the process of reloading. During the case charging stage I take the charged cases from the the powder measure and place them into trays saved from American Eagle 45 ACP. Then after I have filled all of the trays with charged cases I eyeball the powder levels of each case in the tray. Doing this takes almost no time at all and it makes it very easy to spot a deviant charge.

BTW, I have had some deviant charges. When I first started reloading I started with the Lee Perfect Powder Measure because they are cheap. This particular powder measure has a shut off feature that sounds like a good idea but it's prone to changing to the OFF position from the vibration of cycling the powder measure. Caught this the first time I used it because I saw the powder level in a tray of charged cases slowly dropping off to nothing. BTW, do NOT recommend this leaky piece of junk to anyone, they ARE NOT SAFE. What I recommend is the RCBS Competition powder measure, because it's easy to set up, doesn't leak or jam and works very well.

[cowboy4evr]

I started reloading using the LEE Classic loader kits in various calibers . I decided very quickly to slightly deviate from the instructions by using a loading block after dropping the powder charge so as to verify each case had powder .
About the LEE Perfect Powder Measure . I have one , it's the only powder measure I have . I never had that kind of problem with mine , the powder charges remained constant . It likes the flake powders best as the finer powders do leak a bit . I would not say that it's a piece of junk nor unsafe . It has it's pro's and con's , like everything else . Regards, Paul

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by glowe

Have to totally disagree about trusting a teen or pre-teen step-son to do everything correctly when just starting to reload! [I]Just tell your stepson to be careful!?!?!?!?/I] Anything that can go wrong will go wrong is my motto. At the very least, make sure you check the cases before the bullet seating stage. After-all you are not talking about a minor issue when double charging 357 brass. It is your hand and/or your stepson's hand at the least that are at risk!

I will never shoot anything that someone else reloads, even if they have done it for decades. The biggest reasons for that is that I have made a handful (no pun intended) of mistakes over the past 40 years of reloading and I know it can happen. I also do not want anybody to feel responsible for anything that might happen on the range.

One suggestion would be to only use a single stage press to start and weigh out every powder charge. Working your way through reloading in batch stages help novice reloaders better understand the process. Sizing then checking, repriming then checking, belling the case & powder drop then checking, bullet seating & crimping then checking. When done in batches of 50, it allow one to carefully review the results of every step before moving on. I have started out several reloaders this way, having them do 100 cases at a time and I check their work before proceeding to the next step and finding errors with almost every novice, some minor and some potentially major.

To bring this to a close, I will review one instance when shooting with a friend. We were both shooting Uberti 44-40 Henry rifles. About 10 rounds into his first tube full of reloads, my friend and I heard a loud report. Checking his gun, the barrel had split open about half-way down! For those of you that are familiar with these rifles, a new barrel is about half the cost of the gun, not to mention a dangerous issue. We were practicing rapid fire rounds for a CASS event at a target just 25 yards downrange.

We went back and I started pulling his bullets of his remaining 40 reloads. I found 2 rounds with no powder and two with double charges. We all know that a primer alone can send a round partially down the barrel and can only assume it was followed up by a charged (or double charged bullet from a temporary plugged drop tube) bullet on a collision course about mid-way down the barrel. We reviewed his pulled target to find that all the cases he fired had struck the target, including a couple of not so round holes. Fortunately no injuries except to his wallet, but a costly mistake none the less.

You are assuming that the stepson is a teen or pre-teen and even if he were, it is a matter of maturity and responsibility. The OP never indicated the age of the stepson. I never suggested that the stepson not get proper training in reloading fundamentals and safety. I'm suggesting that depending on a certain powder to increase safety, isn't necessary. As per your example, your buddy failed to charge a few cases. When the shooter didn't react to the lack of noise and recoil of the uncharged cartridge(s) and followed up with a properly charged cartridge it caused catastrophic failure. No fluffy powder would likely have prevented this. Be safe out there!

[gwpercle]

Don't rely on a "bulky" powder to keep you safe .
It's not going to help the "no powder " load ... that's just as dangerous .
Get a light and become both anal and ocd when it comes to getting powder in a case , check , double check and prior to seating the bullet check again . Make darn sure the right amount of powder is in there. You can't be too careful .
Gary

[Rule3]

Well, you are not actually load true 357 Mag loads so the HP38.Win 231 is fine.


Have your son actually look in each and every case. Use a flashlight and glasses if need. As mentioned put the cases in a reloading tray and lo0k at each one. Load single stage.
2400 powder is for real Mag loads not 38 special target loads.


Trail boss will fill the case up and its hard to blow up a 357 with it due to the bulk.Only problem is the little doughnuts float away
"Thus endth the lesson"

[mtgianni]

The advice I would give any new loader is to prime all inspected cases, charge with powder then immediately seat the bullet. I would not use a loading block until the first 100 were done. I don't think you can beat Unique and 2400 in the 357 revolvers.

[rwsmith]

Go over the filled cases with a flashlight to check the levels. I have a checklist of the necessary steps even though I check weights all through the process, sometimes I go for the seating die too quick and have to back up and do that essential check.

PS: I would closely supervise a younger person until I was confident they were keeping safety at the top. You don't have to stand over his shoulder, but at every stage inspect the work, primers and flare right, powder levels ok, bullet seating. Check them for chamber fit.

Oh, and as far as powder for .357 goes 2400 is my go to. With the bullet weights I use there's not much difference in the hottest powders. I generally don't go for max anymore, though it can be fun. And I use my .357 cases for .38 loads because when I switch to .357 loads I don't have to clean the crud rings at the range. Second is Unique for both .38 and .357. There are others as mentioned here, but Unique is so darn versatile.

[cds43016]

My stepson is an adult. He’s a very experienced shooter but never reloaded. I’m teaching him to load using a Lee Turret Press. The press is used single stage.

He’s charging the cases using a Lee Drum Powder Measure. The charged cases are put in a loading block. Every ten charges I have him weigh the charge before placing the case in the loading block.

When the loading block is full I have him visually check all the charges with a flashlight. Only then is a bullet placed on the case and loading proceeds.

Very safe, a great way to learn, build confidence and good habits, but also very slow.

I personally loaded thousands of 357 rounds on a Hornady AP press. I use a RCBS Powder Check Die to verify the charge since I can’t see the charge inside the case. I also load 9 mm on this press. In addition to the powder check die, I can visually see the 9mm charge before placing the bullet on the case. Indeed, the way my press is set up I can see the charge in two cases at the same time as a comparative reference. A double charge will almost overfill the case.

Charges are checked about every 50 rounds for 9mm, much more frequently for 357. Very safe for 9mm, not as good for 357 since there is only one powder check. It just takes one moment of inattention and trouble.

Before or if I move him to the progressive press for 357, I want to replicate what I have for 9mm. I would feel safer even for myself with a bulker load on a progressive. Even reloaders with many decades of experience can make a mistake, not just a new reloader.

I just punch paper and don’t need or want full power loads. Accuracy is more important. I use coated lead bullets. The hole in the paper is the same size no matter how fast the bullet is moving or what its’s made of. A light load is all we need but one that allows us to visually check the level of the charge in the case as backup to the powder check die. A double charge should be visually obvious. The powder check die has saved me more than once.

Trail Boss seems like a place to start. Given its shape, I wonder how well it meters. It looks like it’s mostly made of air given the charge weight and volume. Do I need magnum primers? Naturally, I have thousands of standard primers.

I like the load I already have for 357 and have a single load for all my 9mm guns. I use one powder and one size primer for all my reloading. This keeps inventory and set up simple. I like to shoot, and reloading is a necessary part of that. I reload to shoot, not shoot to reload. Plan B is to stay with a single stage for 357 and just use the progressive for 9mm even for me. Slower but volume is now far less for me with the 357 than it used to be and is becoming less and less. I shoot and reload far more 9mm (thousands).

I’m a very careful reloader but it seems the older I get the simpler and safer I like things to be. Much depends on the direction he wants to go and how serious he is. I got a feeling though Trail Boss is in my future.

Thanks!

[Rule3]

No, you do not need Mag primers with Trail Boss.


Hodgdon online used a Mag primer for every load that has the word"magnum" I called then years ago about this it was just for constancy.
I have loaded thousands of 357 Mag on a LCTP with the Auto Disc and Auto Drum, Once confident with the powder measure I do not look in every one. You gotta trust the equipment at some point.
You can not double charge with TB so a Kaboom is not possible. A squib from no powder, maybe, but if you are not rapid firing then no problem.

[cds43016]

Originally Posted by Rule3

No, you do not need Mag primers with Trail Boss.


Hodgdon online used a Mag primer for every load that has the word"magnum" I called then years ago about this it was just for constancy.
I have loaded thousands of 357 Mag on a LCTP with the Auto Disc and Auto Drum, Once confident with the powder measure I do not look in every one. You gotta trust the equipment at some point.
You can not double charge with TB so a Kaboom is not possible. A squib from no powder, maybe, but if you are not rapid firing then no problem.

I made the same call to Hodgdon years ago and got the same answer. They recommend magnum primers for consistency. Even my 231 load which I got from them recommends magnum primers. I use standard primers with no problem. It all depends on the powder. I wasn’t sure about Trail Boss because of its large volume. I will follow up with them just to be sure with this powder. There seems to be some difference of opinion in this tread but I think standard primers are OK.

I trust but verify my equipment. I will never put a bullet on a case without at least one verification of the powder level, better yet two.

Several years ago, my Lee Auto Drum had a part fail internally. It would throw a series of light charges and then an overcharge. The powder check die caught it immediately. If I wasn’t paying attention or wasn’t using a powder check die, I hate to think of what could have happened. A lesson I will never forget. All things mechanical can fail. Lee repaired the measure at no charge.

A progressive press with a tall case like the 357 with moderate charges presents some unique problems and requires maximum diligence. Loading the 357 single stage allows for several levels of verification and I have no concern with lighter loads. It’s just slow.

I have no concern loading the 9mm on the progressive, since the low case allows for several levels of powder verification. With a bulker powder hopefully, I can replicate my 9mm experience on the 357.

[BE Mike]

I don't think a responsible adult needs to be lead around by the hand and given a "fail safe" powder. As long as he gets training in safe reloading techniques, he should be cut loose to do his thing. My thinking is pretty much like a manual safety on a gun. If a person is trained to keep a gun pointed in a safe direction all the time, not put his finger on the trigger until ready to fire and not leave a loaded firearm laying around where the uninitiated can get to it, a mechanical manual safety really isn't something that is necessary. Safety is in the head of a well-trained individual and not "fail safe" techniques or gadgets.

[Rule3]

Hodgdon


158 g lswc



38 special max with 4.2 gr TB uses a SPP


357 Mag with the same bullet uses 4.2 TB and a SPM


It doesn't need a Magnum Primer. It's a very fast burning powder.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by cds43016

Any other powder recommendations for this bullet and standard primers for a light load?

Originally Posted by cowboy4evr

The old " standby " Unique does a pretty good job .

^^^This. While many folks grumble that Unique doesn't meter well, it meters well by volume and it shoots well that way. Variances of .1gr one way or the other does not impact accuracy nor does it endanger anyone. Generally readily available.

[CWS&W]

Originally Posted by cowboy4evr

4227 will give you the most case fill but it needs pretty high pressure to burn effectively . Regards, Paul

How would you give it pretty high pressure? With a tight crimp? Or a longer barrel?

[SLT223]

Originally Posted by CWS&W

How would you give it pretty high pressure? With a tight crimp? Or a longer barrel?

Compressed charge, heavy bullet, tight roll crimp...and it will still leave unburned kernels. I've given up on 4227 in 357. I have some left, and they'll get run through the 1892 because they'll lock up an S&W. It's that messy.

That being said, it is still very accurate.

[Nevada Ed]

Originally Posted by SLT223

Compressed charge, heavy bullet, tight roll crimp...and it will still leave unburned kernels. I've given up on 4227 in 357. I have some left, and they'll get run through the 1892 because they'll lock up an S&W. It's that messy.

That being said, it is still very accurate.

IMR4227 locked up my snub nose J frame shooting a lead 158 Lswc bullet so bad, I had to take it home, to get it apart.

Flakes all over the place and under the ejection star.

My 686 6" will swallow it and not jamb but I do get a lot of "Fly Back" particles and it is a mess to look at after shooting 30 rounds..........
yes it is too slow for the .357 but it is accurate with a 158 lead bullet at 780fps.

[Rule3]

The OP is looking for mouse fart loads not "magnum loads"
4227 is not relevant

[Nightowl]

Trail Boss was designed specifically for the cowboy action crowd who were loading light loads of fast burning powder in very large cases, like the 44 Special and .44 Magnum, .44-40. It is a great powder for that purpose, it gives moderate velocity with a lot of volume in the case. A double charge is virtually impossible, as the powder will spill over out of the case and a bullet cannot be inserted.
The downside is that it uses more volume, so you get fewer loads per canister, making it more expensive to use. I like it in my .44 Magnum cases for a light load that shoots really well.

[cowboy4evr]

For me the down side to trail boss is the cost . Those bottles don’t hold a pound, they are only 9 ounces. Just one ounce over 1/2 lb . Regards Paul

[Groo01]

Originally Posted by cds43016

I made the same call to Hodgdon years ago and got the same answer. They recommend magnum primers for consistency. Even my 231 load which I got from them recommends magnum primers. I use standard primers with no problem. It all depends on the powder. I wasn’t sure about Trail Boss because of its large volume. I will follow up with them just to be sure with this powder. There seems to be some difference of opinion in this tread but I think standard primers are OK.

I trust but verify my equipment. I will never put a bullet on a case without at least one verification of the powder level, better yet two.

Several years ago, my Lee Auto Drum had a part fail internally. It would throw a series of light charges and then an overcharge. The powder check die caught it immediately. If I wasn’t paying attention or wasn’t using a powder check die, I hate to think of what could have happened. A lesson I will never forget. All things mechanical can fail. Lee repaired the measure at no charge.

A progressive press with a tall case like the 357 with moderate charges presents some unique problems and requires maximum diligence. Loading the 357 single stage allows for several levels of verification and I have no concern with lighter loads. It’s just slow.

I have no concern loading the 9mm on the progressive, since the low case allows for several levels of powder verification. With a bulker powder hopefully, I can replicate my 9mm experience on the 357.

Groo here
Although Trailboss is a faster powder, because of the "fluffyness" of
the powder , it seems to like to be loaded like BP..
Full or nearly full case, HEAVY, crimp/ bullet pull, and Hot or Magnum primers.
We load 41 mag to "police" level loads with this formula.
And 5 different guns shoot the load "tight and round"
As to powder measures a little variation in volume is ok due to the
"Fluff vs weight " effect......
I contend the correct way to load Trailboss is by volume not weight.
Very hard to over fill a case .....

[Turn4811]

Back in the 70's my dad started me with Blue Dot in 38 cases on a Single stage press with 122gr FN lead to be shot in a Ruger Speed Six . It filled the case about half full.