I have some 38 130 gr HST jacketed wad cutters that
need to run over 800 fps for proper expansion.

Revolvers shooting them will be Centennials, 442-2,
640-1 in .357, and 37-2.

Hornady 6th Edition, Volume 1, page 747 loads for the
140 gr XTP-HP show Power Pistol at about 6 grains
in the upper 800 fps to low 900 fps range. I should
be in the low 900's because the HST is 10 gr lighter.

I want to use my 6 gr of Herco "go to load" I use for
everything else:

45 acp 230 gr RNL
40 S&W 180 gr LFP
9mm 124 gr LRN
38 spl 158 gr SWC

BUT.... The Herco won't burn clean enough and
the unburned powder would be un-acceptable.

Anyone load the HST's ?

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never get out of the boat

Get some Unique powder or at least some w231for your loading test.

They worked for me with 125, 135 and 140gr JHP in my snubs.

There is a on target post from square pizza dated 4/2/2019 that ought to get you (the op) started in the right direction... There are a couple more in this forum about this specific bullet as well, but my tablet doesn't let me Search this site for some reason...?

Cheers!

Those HST bullets are hollow points loaded like wadcutters, but they are not wadcutters.

Get some Unique or Power Pistol

You require more powder, not less when the bullet weight is lighter. I suggest you use 125gr bullet data for the 130gr bullet if you can't find 130gr bullet data.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I am using 5.4gr Unique for my 130gr HST and they are working great. I used the speer loading data for 135gold dot short barrel.

My worry with the 130 HST is the long bearing surface, I was worried about it increasing pressure so I limited my loads to the 5.4gr. Honestly, it seems really mild and seems like it could be loaded to touch hotter.

On a side not, I have also made a mild 357mag load with 15.0gr of 4227 with the 130 HST and I really really like that in my 649. Its a mild shooter.

*edit* I also loaded my rounds to the crimping cannular and not like a wadcutter, figuring that it would make them easier to load via speed strip and also reduce pressure a bit.

5.8 grains of Unique = 925 fps
This is a +P and a maximum load .
Start at 5.2 grains and work up slowly in your gun.

My pet load in 38 special , in both J and K frame revolvers , is a
160 gr. cast lead wadcutter (Lyman #358432)
over 5.2 grains of Unique .

Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Just remember that from a bullet performance standpoint the purpose of that specific cannelure is to maintain a bond with the lead core for purposes of bullet integrity after expansion. Personally, I'm not sure I've ever seen any tests of these bullets vis-a-vis reloading COL. Doubt it would make a lot of difrerence, but... Just sayin'.

Cheers!

BUT.... The Herco won't burn clean enough and
the unburned powder would be un-acceptable

Have you tried this load with this powder? How much unburned powder are you seeing? Why is it unacceptable?

Great load Gary, plenty of punch. I’m partial myself to the 358495 and 3.5 grs BE for a “full wadcutter” load.

Are these what your talking about? If so, please tell me where you got them. Federal told me they don't sell just the bullet.

I did see them being sold on gun broker!

Thanks to a PM from a forum member I went on GB and found them. Bought 200 for 20 cents each delivered. That's not bad for a premium hollow point.
serger, what plug did you use to seat these? I'm thinking the wadcutter/flat nose plug worked fine. That's a big hollow point and you wouldn't want to deform it.
Now to figure out loads to get 800fps minimum, but not to fast. From what I saw with tests luckygunner did, to slow and they don't open or penetrate. To fast and they open to early and don't penetrate. If you hit it right they work great.

Read the previous posts and just go to Square Pizza's earlier post: a lot of info.

As far as the LuckyGunner article is concerned, that was the factory ammo. Frankly I found it to be most positive in both 4" and snub barrels. One bullet with some unexpanded petals doesn't seem too serious to me...? Especially looking at the other ones!

I fire my reloads in a 442, a Model 19-3 & a 66-1 in both +P and at some lower 357 mag velocities with no problems. Not chrono'ed or tested into gell, but certainly no problems.

Cheers!

I've chronoed the HST load in my Kimber 2" and they do 812 from that revolver in factory loading. Expand nicely and is an excellent first 6 up in a Snubby.

Hard to find, anyone know where I can order through the UPS or US Mail?

I was ordering it from target sports USA for about 70 cents a round before shipping. It's been out of stock for a few weeks now.

I loaded up some .38 SPL loads with 6.4 grains of Alliant Powder Pistol under a 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel bullet. They chrono'ed right around 800 fps. out of my 2" S&W 642. That charge should put your 130 gr. bullet about the same or a little bit faster. One thing, that you might already know however, is that you can't count on hollow point pistol bullets to expand as advertised, even with the right velocity.

Looking at the dates on this post, most at least 3 years old. Is there no reliable data available yet? I respect and consider what the most experienced posters that have worked/are working with the bullet say, but it would be a dream come true for some major source or heaven forbid, even FEDERAL to publish data with some of the more common powders... Universal, Unique, AA #5, HP 38, Bullseye and more. And that with "reasonable" barrel lengths...let's say 1 3/4 to 6 inches.

I did a test with 38 loads with the 130 HST micro bullet in my M49
with eleven different powders.

It boiled down to two powders for best fps and accuracy, in my revolver, that matched a factory loading.

Your revolver might not like these powders, but it is what worked for me, in the 830fps area with a low ES and POA.

I dropped my maximum charge data and you will need to work up
to see what your chrony and revolver likes best.

I tried a 1.22" oal when first testing, that was not a bad load, for accuracy.
However I did do better with the Factory OAL of 1.18" with no crimp
as my best accuracy and low ES loads in my J frame, since the
deep seating of this bullet, was enough to prevent its movement on recoil.

Try either Red Dot at 3.8 grs or BE-86 at 4.6 grs at a OAL of 1.18" for a 800fps loading.

PS:
I consider this bullet with Unique powder at 884fps MAXIMUM
for a light J frame revolver, for accuracy and recover time.

Good shooting.

I have loaded them successfully with all those powders, plus a few more as well. In both 38 Special & 357 Magnum brass, for 2" & 4" applications. If you are waiting for some entity to "publish" load data for that specific bullet...?

Good luck!

Cheers!

P.S. Since it occupies (at an 1.18" OAL) just about the same volume of a 38 Special case as the heavier 148gr lead wadcutters, that should be a pretty good hint at where your starting loads should be... You just have to work them up. And 2.7gr of Bullseye will not get you to expansion velocity, either.

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Sit Reloader Sentiret

this was my debacle asking several ammunition companies why i couldnt seat a 125 grain jhp deeper in a 357 to get better powder burn.

No one has ever talked about the issues of the seated bullet allowing alot of room for foriegn material to lodge

The problem with that is that Velocity numbers are what drives Sales. Want a powder to be considered the "hot ticket" for Velocity, they develop the load with an 8 inch barrel. BTW, I have a 357 Magnum load that is so light on the powder charge of H110 it's considered "too low" to be safe. Apparently if you load H110 too light it will explode. Someone needs to explain to me why a 410 load featuring H110 and loaded to 9000 psi doesn't blow up. Sometimes you need waders if you want to look at some articles on the Net, because there is a LOT of misinformation out there. Anyhow rant over. It happens my 14.6 grain charge of H110 with a 158 grain Hornady XTP may be considered unsafe by some on the net but it will produce a velocity of 1620 fps and sub 1 MOA accuracy all day long. In my 20 inch Winchester 1892. Point is barrel length can be critical for Velocity so factor that in any time you are scouting for a new powder to try out. Because thos numbers could be hiding behind an extra long barrel.

As this is 2023 where we are all seeing shortages of some powders due to Covid or Ukraine. So when I'm considering a new powder, or a replacement, the first thing to consider is whether that powder is available. So right off lets rule out Unique, Universal, International, and many other powders we once relied on. Instead you need to be looking for powders that are actually available.

Personally I've always liked Vihtavouri 3N37 because it's a powder with a near ideal match for 9mm bore ammunition. Note, the 38 special is a 9mm caliber. That near ideal match means that this powder is a bit of magic in terms of efficiency and it has ZERO position sensitivity. It is also VERY flexible, you can build 650 fps sleepers all the way up to 1200 fps near magnums. I have a personal load worked up for my 2 1/2 inch model 19 that produces 900 fps with a 140 grain bullet specifically to spare the forcing cone. I won't list it because it's technically not "legal" but the weight falls between the maximum for 38 special and the minimum for 357 Magnum in a Magnum case. It's also a rather soft shooting load.

Point is that Vihtavouri makes some excellent powders that are available and, due to the Covid price increases we have all seen, the Vihtavouri powders are currently price competitive with Hodgdon, Alliant, and Accurate powders.

@scooter123,
I'm not sure where you heard H110 will blow up but I highly doubt that!

When you download W296/H110 you get in burnt powder and erratic velocities. Your charge is low but if it makes you happy use it. If it were me I would use a slightly faster powder to achieve the same results without the possible problems a downloaded slow ball powder can exhibit.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

When loading with the slower powders like Blue Dot and 2400 in the 38 case
with this deep seated 130gr. JHP bullet, I was not happy with the POA
where my bullets were hitting my targets.

The slower 2400 powder at 715-840 fps had a ES of 126and were 3-4" away from my POA, at a close range.

I do not think that H110 powder would do any better, in the volume that is
available in the case, for developing a good load.

Good luck.

Western Powder load manual shows 5.8 gr start and 6.2 gr max of Ramshot Silloutte powder with a 125 gr XTP bullet. Velocity is 1039 and 1137 with no bbl length listed. Pressure is 16845 with a load length of 1.445".

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Front sight and squeeze

I hope all realize the subject of this thread was (originally?) the 130gr FEDERAL JHP-WC bullet...?

This (in Factory format) was described as the FEDERAL Personal Defense HST Micro 38 Special +P and was loaded to wadcutter length, the canellure being designed to assist in holding the jacket to the core for expansion purposes..

Using other 125-130gr load data for more "conventional" JHPs which typically protrude from the case mouth as a starting point can cause some serious issues as far as available case volume is concerned.

I used comparison with the more typical 148gr wadcutter-type bullet's placement in the case as the beginning point for load development. I have loaded these into 357 Magnum brass (and at higher velocities) and once mistakenly loaded what was a "start" magnum powder load (i.e., 4.6gr Bullseye) into 38 Special brass with these bullets.

Those loads shot just fine in my 357 Magnums and are clearly marked and identified as such for future use. My bad, but at least I caught it (!) and researched it before any test shots were fired.

A review of the many reviews of this Federal offering indicates to me that velocities much above the factory load are not really necessary as expansion and penetration as tested was excellent. I never did any testing as to what the effect of higher velocity (minor increases, BTW) was vis-a-vis bullet integrity and expansion because performance at factory levels seemed pretty good to begin with?

Just felt my experiences with reloading this bullet might help preclude someone from mistakenly loading some of these up with data that would fail to take into consideration the difference in the available case volumes between a more "conventional" JHP and this JHP-WC as it is significant...

Cheers!

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Sit Reloader Sentiret

Nevada Ed posted several threads on this bullet and I found them to be very informative and interesting as well. His labor was very well documented in these threads. THANX..................

I wouldn't be too quick to give up on the 6gr Herco loads. I'd load 6 and try them in my old Highway Patrolman or my R92 and see what I got...........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Thanks for the "Like"
but you do have to know if the loads you are making with this bullet, are for;

A K frame or heavier revolver, or a little J frame
that can NOT handle many of the above loads, safely !!

The Federal 130gr "Micro" bullet is a great SD bullet, when loaded correctly.

Have fun.

This is true in principle. The amount of powder decreases as bullet weight increases.
However, using same amount of powder will still push the lighter bullet faster.
Isn't the rule of thumb that it is OK to use the powder charge for the next HEAVIER weight bullet, but not the next LIGHTER weight bullet?

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

IMO the difference of 5gr in the bullet weight of 125gr and 130gr is insignificant. If you look @ the Hornady manual for many of their bullets the use the powder charge weigh for a range of bullet weights. Example, for the 30-06 the top of the page lists their bullets from 176gr to 180gr with all the same data.

If the bullet weight was greater I would not have given the same advice.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

It is true that 5gr is a pretty insignificant difference, especially if you aren't loading max charges. I just follow the rule of thumb I mentioned to err on the side of caution.

Another way of looking at it is that 5gr is 4% of the bullet's weight. I would never go even 4% above max charge either.

I always follow the 'better safe than sorry' principle.

But that's just me, I'm pretty cautious, maybe overly so.

YMMV.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

There is no such thing as over cautious. You should always do what you think is best and safe. What I think means nothing.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I have been lucky, all these years of shooting, shotgun, rifle, pistol and revolver loads, that I have made

and the worst thing that happened to me was,

a tiny sliver of copper jacket, went by my safety glasses and hit my left cheek,
drawing blood, from a .357 cylinder, that was out of timing.

Stay safe.

Try playing with Lomgshot and the 130-135 grain bullets.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

Speer Manual #15 Copyright 2018.

Depending on variables such as BC gap, crimp pressure, primers, 6.0 grains of PP should just break 800 fps from a 1.625" barrel

The Western powder manual lists a barrel length of 7.75 in. for .38 Spl. and +P loads, and 6 in. for 357 Magnum. Tiny print in the header for the caliber.

This bullet seats very deeply. If you use data for a 125 or 135 grain bullet seated normally in a 38 special seated deeply like a wad utter you’ll get astronomical pressure. I have suggested earlier and I will say again, You should read the threads posted by Nevada Ed. He loaded both for velocity and for shootability in compact 2 inch and heavy duty 6 inch revolvers. Be mindful of the reduced capacity and resulting higher pressure. I think everyone On this board is an adult you’re responsible, stay safe.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

This is correct. By radically reducing the internal case volume by deep seating the bullet, the pressure can rise to dangerous or disastrous levels. You must also consider the difference between the coefficient of friction between a lead and jacketed bullet. The jacketed bullet is harder to push down the barrel which, with the same load, will increase pressure also.

My goal was to duplicate the Federal factory ammunition. I loaded these bullets in 38 special cases to an overall length of 1.18” with several powders and loads. The best results:
4.8 grains of BE-86 yielded 836fps
3.8 grains of Titegroup yielded 835fps

These are averages of five shots each from a model 640 Pro and a model 642. I abandoned the project because the point of impact was nowhere near the point of aim and the accuracy was poor at best.

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SWCA #3526

Good thread. I bought 500 pulls of these a few years ago but never got around to loading any but maybe now I will.
Been having too much fun, and success with lead bullets. Good thread nonetheless.

Current Speer data has 135gr load data, not for this particular bullet obviously but 135gr GoldDots.