Let me start by saying I am a casual reloader who mainly loads 38 Special and 357 Magnum. Due to lack of time, I dont do as much reloading as I'd like, however I am still plenty experienced in reloading. That said, since I'm under a "stay at home" order, I have plenty of free time when I'm not actively logged in and working remote.

Tonight, I sat down at my bench to size and de-prime some once fired 38 brass, that I've collected from recent range trips. Four or five of the boxes of brass I have on hand presently are new (within the last couple months) CCI Blazer brand, a brand which makes up a large percentage of the brass I've used over the last 7 or 8 years with no issue. These boxes of brass however I'm dismayed to find are different from the rest: they dont have the groove just above the cartridge rim, and thus will not fit into my shell holder. Nothing else seems different, just the lack of the groove. It is still boxer primed, so I can in theory still reload it.

Has anyone else encountered this? Is this a new standard for which I can source a different shell holder, or is a new tactic to keep people from reloading their brass? Attached is a picture of the brass (right), next to a nickel plated Remington case (left) for reference.

Thoughts?

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I've been reloading .38 Special since 1964 and I've never seen that. What is the headstamp on that brass? CCI/Speer has excellent customer service; if it's their brass, I'd call them on Monday and ask them about it. I don't think they're trying to discourage reloading since they sell tons of primers and bullets, lots of it to me over the years.

I may give them a call if they're even open... I've got four boxes just like this, all headstamped Blazer 38 Spl. It's all from the same place, the house brand at ome of the local ranges I frequent. That particular range does not allow reloaded ammo to be used, you dont think they would purposely order cartridges that cant be reloaded so people cant sneak around the rules would they? Would CCI even make such a thing?

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Its headstamped Blazer, but made by CCI, their name is on the box

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I hate to see that but I am set for life on 38 brass so it don't matter to me. Would a different shell holder work? <Just thinking>

Is it possible it's a .38 Long Colt, or something similar?
It obviously fired in SOMEBODY's gun.
Does it have the CCI head stamp? If so, it is probably a screw-up because CCI is not known for making ammo in oddball calibers, to my knowledge at least.

I just have the one shell holder currently for 38, is there another case of similar design that's close that I should try?

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Will look in a while. I have a complete set. What loader are you using? I use Dillon but have a set of Rcbs and Lee. MIC THE RIM. In the photo the rim looks thicker to me and that would be like a high primer? Put some in your gun and see if the cylinder will bind. If you have a scale weigh and see if heavier. It may be something stronger with a reinforced web?

It's 38 Special for sure, I bought it new at the range, and fired it from my own 686, 15-3, and Colt Troop 357. The brass is CCI Blazer ammo, headstamped "Blazer 38 SPL".

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Using a RCBS #6, an old one at that. The press and reloading stuff actually belongs to my grandad, stuff he bought back in the 60s, a mixture of RCBS and Ohaus gear. He doesn't shoot much at all anymore (he's 88), and over the last 10 years, I've been doing the majority of the reloading. I do on occasion still get him out to the range, and even at 88, he is still a better shooter than I am.

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Loaded hundreds of Rem-Umc .38spcl cases with no extractor groove. Used a old Lyman shellholder I've had for 50 years.

I'm guessing that brass wouldn't play well with my M52.

OK-We are talking brand new ammo not the old stuff. The 38 is a straight wall case so if you turn it upside down and it fits the shell holder the problem is the rim? The next size RCBS is a X1. It is close to same size but allows about .002 more for the rim best I can measure. The #6 <what the book calls for>I measured looks like it should work. IS the rim larger? I just dug through a box of military UMC and it looks like the rest but I don't use because of crimped primers. <Remington and Winchester will work but hard to seat.

If the rim was much larger it wouldn’t fit in a recessed cylinder. I think. Very odd.

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No gold. Only lead. Bobby

38 special S&W is not recessed. In the photo the brass at the top of the case looks larger? I will wait until the poster measures and comments on the measure of his findings.

I'd give them a call. Looks like it just missed a finishing step in production to me.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Update: I called CCI and asked them, the answer was not quite what I expected. They have no idea why the groove would or would not be there, but according to the person I spoke with, he says that groove is not part of the cartridge specification (pretty sure that's not correct), and thus doesn't need to be there. I suspect they removed it as a cost-cutting measure in production, probably saves them a fraction of a penny for each case produced.

They told me it's not their problem, and I need to call RCBS or the other reloading supply companies and ask them for a reference for a different shell holder that might work.

I guess I'm going to avoid buying Blazer Ammo from now on...

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Not suggesting this is the case, but it almost looks like it was made to fit a tight fit moon clip...

This post piqued my interest so I dug out all my boxes of 38 spl and could not find any without the groove. However, the width iof the groove varied considerable among different headstamps.

Regardless, I miked the diameter of the case (next to the groove) and it conformed nicely with the opening on all of my 3 shell holders. In other words, the brass fit into the shellholder and the shellholder came no where near the groove.

Unless the diameter of these cases were significantly wider than normal, they would fit in my shellholders.

Been shooting 38 Spl for nearly fifty years and never seen cases like that.

It's for a .38 special rimfire!!

Randy

There is no requirement for the grove for 38 special or 357 magnum on the SAAMI standards for either cartridge. it’s up to the makers of the brass if they put one in and they can make their own standards of the dimensions if they do put one in. Your answer from CCI is correct.

Look up the industry standards for these cartridges at saami.org

I mentioned this a few months ago with a lot of once fired brass I got. When I went to load some moon clips, I noticed that the Blazer brass did not have the groove. So I use them in the revolvers I load with loose rounds. Good Luck.

Never seen such a thing. Almost makes me think its a factory error.

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Heavily armed old man.

I believe what you are looking at is a canaleur which is used when a jacketed bullet is seated ....the canaleur squeezes the crimp groove on the bullet to give it a secure fit. I used to shoot bullseye matches and I’ve loaded thousands of 38 some with caneleures some without......no difference. Load ‘em up and enjoy them!

Take a look at my picture with the first post, I'm not talking about the canaleur, there's a distinct groove cut into the case just above (or below in my pic be cause the cases are upside down) the case rim. All of my 38 and 357 brass have this groove, except for these 5 boxes from Blazer. I'm pretty sure that they removed the groove to save a tiny bit of money in manufacturing of the cases.

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Now I see what you’re talking about. I don’t know but if I had to guess I would think that it might be to aid extraction or more likely to be used with moon clips

I read some reviews of Starline brass and one person states that .025 thick moon clips work extremely well with these cases and they do have the groove.

Have you tried the empty brass case in the handguns you use? If there is a problem there, send the brass back and request a replacement. If you find no other reason to NOT use these cases without the usual groove, I or someone else with a lathe can fix the situation. As a last resort you are welcome to mail me one of the brass cases and your shell holder and I will fix it for you at not cost. PM if you want to go that way.

In over 50 years of reloading, I have never seen a 38 Special brass without that usual groove at the rim. I have a book of SAMMI drawings for cartridges. I may not be able to find it readily. But, I'm going to try. I feel certain that the SAMMI blueprint for that cartridge shows a rim groove.

Hornady manual shows the rebated web or the case on the left of your photo. I've never seen the case on the right. I shoot range brass and have just about every head stamp on planet earth but don't have anything like that case on the right. I just checked 5 different head stamped cases and they all have the rebated web. Blazer brass isn't a great candidate for reloading, if it's truly brass to begin with.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Bob- can you load these? What loader are you using? Can you measure the head thickness and width? They may be a problem in a 52 or other bottom feeders.

No, but there are plenty of folks with a recessed cylinder (.357 mag) that just might shoot a .38 SPCL now and then.

My curiosity got the better of me, and I went looking at my brass stash. I couldn't find any Blazer .38 SPCL, but I did find Blazer and CCI .357 MAG brass. They both had the normal groove at the rim.

If I hands on one I think I could find the problem.<if there is a problem> It is not going to effect me but would like to find out what the fuss is about. You would think anyone that reloads would have something to measure with.

I'm not sure how calibrated my old eyes are...but it appears perhaps the rim is a tad bit thicker

I'll almost bet that's it.

Been loading 38 specials for nearly 30 years, and have never seen a casing like the one on the right. I can see it not working in my Dillon shellplate for 38/357, but maybe in my Lee shell holders? Maybe?

It's very odd to me, but I'm going to have to go root through my brass & factory stuff to try to find a match.

Take a look at the following photos.

The trim thickness is not the problem. I can slide the rim about half of the way into the shell holder before it hangs up. It seems to be hitting a spot on the upper flange of the holder that is tighter than the case body's width exceeds the width of the flange. Picture 1 shows a hang-up case, Picture 2 shows a fully seat case in the shell holder.

Here's the measurements to back this up:

Distance between the flanges on the shellholder: 0.365" (Picture 3)

Diameter of a Blazer Brass Case without the groove, just ahead of the Rim: 0.376" (Picture 4)

Diameter of a random Winchester brass case, measured in the groove just ahead of the rim: 0.358" (picture 5)

Thickness of Blazer Brass Rim: 0.051" (picture 6)

Thickness of Winchester Brass Rim: 0.053" (picture 7)

Diameter of Blazer Brass Rim: 0.434" (picture 8)

Diameter of Winchester Rim: 0.436" (picture 9)



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Please see my post #37 for your answer.

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I guess Sammi doesn't require or consider the groove as necessary in the specs.

Attached Images

38SpecSammi.jpg (72.2 KB, 25 views)

It's a RCBS #6

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I think it is your shell holder. Where yours is .365-mine is .384. I can flip the case upside down and the mouth will go to the bottom of the holder like I suggested try in post 13. I am using a #6 RCBS to check. GOOD PHOTOS --The fired case is .375 on the bottom and .380 middle to mouth.

I have not had any issues with reloading these. I am using a RCBS Rock Chucker with the RCBS shell holder and I do not have any issues. As I reload my moon clips, when I come across one that is tight, I just set it aside one one of my other revolvers.

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YOU WIN THE PRIZE-- I see you are using a #1 holder which will work but the correct is #6 so a #1 or 1x will solve the puzzle. Thanks Bob. Gary

Mea Culpa; I stand corrected. I found my SAAMI drawings book and found that the 38 Special does not call for a standard recess groove. The drawing has a note to the affect that not all manufactures use a recess groove on this cartridge. And in the mean time, others have solved the OP's problem. It is obviously just a case of the wrong shell holder. Good deal. All's well that ends well.

...weren’t those calipers once made in Japan? I saw them used by QA folks at Mitsubishi, Nagoya, Japan. They were indeed expensive and some of the best.

They still are as far as I know. This set came from a friend whose father is a precision gauge dealer and repair shop, and even with a special friends discount, they still were not cheap.

People my disagree, but I've tried a bunch of different calipers from several different companies, and the Mitutoyo are the best for the money in my opinion. The build quality is nicer than Starrett's current offerings, a little bit better than the low end Brown and Sharpe's (their premium tier stuff is unbeatable though), and definitely beats the pants off of Fowler, though I have a 12" digital caliper from them that's pretty good. They also seem to be the favorites among the handful of machinists I've worked with as well.

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That cannot be a RCBS #1 shell holder, the #1 is for 32-20 and the like, which are a bit smaller in diameter at the base. Maybe it's a Lee #1 which is for 38/357, and their fitment is different.

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Mitutoyo are indeed fine tools and preferred by many in the trade. As a civilian toolmaker for U.S. Naval Aviation depot level repair, i can say that while we are issued some Mitutoyo tools, all our dial calipers have been Starret no. 120a for a while now.

Probably a case of being the lowest bidder lol, but the 120a has proven to be an accurate and perhaps as equally important DURABLE, dial caliper.

They are very much appreciated here in the aircraft shops.

Just had a look in my box (all our tools are issued, personally owned tools are not allowed), and this is what i currently have as far as calibrated measuring tools.

O.D. mics...1 Fowler, 2 Starrett, 1 Scherr-Tumico
Dial caliper- Starrett
Dial indicator- all Browne and Sharp BesTest
Depth mic- Scherr Tumico
2.25 dia. Dial indicator Starrett

My wrong on my 1x --It is a Lyman The #6 is RCBS. My Lee shell holders won't work with the RCBS. I was assuming Bob's #1 in post #42 was RCBS because he said it was. If you have steady hands you could dremel it?

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