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Old 04-30-2020, 12:26 AM
dla dla is offline
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Default Leading at muzzle with hitek coating?

I'm running Missouri Bullet Company 155gr coated lswc through my M&P40 2.0 Compact - 4" barrel. I ran them up to 1250fps and started getting leading in the last inch of barrel - completely clean before that. It looks like a classic lube failure. Anyone else have experience with hitek (hytek, hi tek, etc.) Coating?
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Old 04-30-2020, 03:23 AM
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Yes, I've run into it before. Actually with MBC's bullets, 44s.

When I had issues with them they attributed it to a couple things.

To me the spray on coating process is no better than the person doing it & can lead to inconsistencies.

You might just try lowering the powder charge a bit to see if that helps.

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Old 04-30-2020, 04:53 AM
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I ran into leading problems with Hi Tek coated bullets from SNS in the past, mainly with 44 caliber bullets. When I backed them down to 1000 ft/sec or less the leading went away.
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:53 AM
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I've had good luck with Missouri Bullet HiTek coated .38's and 9mm's. Had the 9mm's up to around 1150 fps with no hint of coating transfer.

Check your powder choice. Some burn hotter than others. You want the cooler ones. TiteGroup is notorious for being hot. It's a good, cost effective powder but it does burn hot.
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Old 04-30-2020, 07:58 AM
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Make sure your not shaving off coating during seating. I had problems with this till I went to a "M" style expander plug. Makes more of a cup than a bell. For my Dillon 550, DAA "M" funnels do the same.
I generally like MBC bullets, but I've not been happy with some of the hi-tek coated I've gotten in the past. Wet a rag with acetone and rub a bullet. The coating should not soften or come off. Smack the bullet with a hammer. The coating should not crack or flake off. If it does...
Brazos precision 9mm after acetone and hammer treatment.

Last edited by Collo Rosso; 04-30-2020 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
Make sure your not shaving off coating during seating.
Really good point. I'm going to go pull a few bullets and see if the coating is intact.

The lube is advertised as good for 2000+fps in rifles, so it is hard for me to fathom that the lube failed 3" into a 4" trip. And I was wanting to try coated bullets in 44mag later this year.
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Old 04-30-2020, 12:13 PM
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When using a conventional cast lead bullet/lube, when leading appears at the muzzle end of the barrel, it is most likely the lube "ran out" before bullet exits or didn't do it's job. Perhaps the coating "runs out", but I would consider it is only a 4" barrel. I believe if the bullet's coating was shaved, there would be leading down the entire length of the barrel, but it is definitely something to check. I never got into Hi-Tek coating but I have PCed many handgun and rifle bullets with good success (even in 30 cal rifles running 2,000+ fps and Magnum handguns running 1,300+ fps.). I have gotten fouling, but not leading in a few of my PCed bullets (9mm). I'd be interested is hearing the solution...

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Old 04-30-2020, 01:12 PM
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You sure it is "lead" and not just discoloration from the coating, carbon and dirt from the primers?. It would be interesting to find a bullet after it was shoot.
After torture testing several bullets with Hy Tec from MBC I doubt it is lead.
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Old 04-30-2020, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dla View Post
Anyone else have experience with hitek (hytek, hi tek, etc.) Coating?
Just wondering, are you using the Brinell 12's or Brinell 18's?

I use the MBC Hitek 12's in my .38 Special loads, and low end .357 loads, 800fps-900fps, The .38 level loads do not give me any leading at all. I use the Hitek 18's in my 9mm, and hotter .357 loads, 1000fps -1200fps. I do get an accumulation of "lead" with the 18's @ 1200fps after about 75 rounds at the upper end of the velocity range, but no loss of accuracy over 100 rounds. At 1000fps, no leading at all. I wasn't shocked or disappointed, as they are about the same as the Berry's plated bullets. They cost less.

I use Red Dot for the mild loads, and Unique or Herco for the 9mm and heavier .357 loads.
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Old 04-30-2020, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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You sure it is "lead" and not just discoloration from the coating, carbon and dirt from the primers?. It would be interesting to find a bullet after it was shoot.
After torture testing several bullets with Hy Tec from MBC I doubt it is lead.
Well if not lead, then it is something darn hard to scrub out. I'll take a dental pick to it next time and check more carefully. You have a point because it was deposited like blowby leading instead of streaking.
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Old 04-30-2020, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TMan51 View Post
Just wondering, are you using the Brinell 12's or Brinell 18's?

I use the MBC Hitek 12's in my .38 Special loads, and low end .357 loads, 800fps-900fps, The .38 level loads do not give me any leading at all. I use the Hitek 18's in my 9mm, and hotter .357 loads, 1000fps -1200fps. I do get an accumulation of "lead" with the 18's @ 1200fps after about 75 rounds at the upper end of the velocity range, but no loss of accuracy over 100 rounds. At 1000fps, no leading at all. I wasn't shocked or disappointed, as they are about the same as the Berry's plated bullets. They cost less.

I use Red Dot for the mild loads, and Unique or Herco for the 9mm and heavier .357 loads.
I'm using the brinnel 18 coated product. The first 3 inches of the barrel are clean - so bullet fit and obturation are fine.
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dla View Post
Really good point. I'm going to go pull a few bullets and see if the coating is intact.

The lube is advertised as good for 2000+fps in rifles, so it is hard for me to fathom that the lube failed 3" into a 4" trip. And I was wanting to try coated bullets in 44mag later this year.
I shoot HT coated & also do my own. If the coating is cured properly, should have no issues. Size still matters, so 0.401" would be the minimum. If you shave the coating during seating, you can get leading.
In my exp, HT doesn't make it much past 1500fps before accuracy drops off. I tried some in my 6.8 @ 2000fps, shot patterns at 50y.
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:49 PM
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Well if not lead, then it is something darn hard to scrub out. I'll take a dental pick to it next time and check more carefully. You have a point because it was deposited like blowby leading instead of streaking.
I scraped some off of the top of a land - lead. Took me awhile to find a dental pick

So it is definitely leading - I'll pull some bullets and see if I'm scraping the coating off.
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Old 04-30-2020, 06:16 PM
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Default I've had good luck.....

....with Missouri's hy tek coating. No leading going on. Mostly .38/.357 and 9mm. Some .44 mag.
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Old 05-01-2020, 12:17 AM
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Get yourself a .40 cal bore mop and some real copper Chore Boy. Make sure the bore mop is a snug fit. Wrap a couple of strands around the bore mop and run it in and out of the barrel. The lead will come out as a sparkling dust so be sure to do this outdoors. It should only take a few scrubs and less than a minute.

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Old 05-01-2020, 12:30 AM
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I've run Missouri, SNS, Brazos and Summers HyTek Bullets over 1500fps in revolvers and lever actions with no leading at all. I did try some Bayou a year or so back and started getting some leading running just over 1000fps. I think I just go a bad batch of bullets as I could scrape the coating off with the edge of a knife. I took the rest of that batch and loaded them really light and had no problems. The main reason I use HyTek is I can load them as hot as jacketed and barrel is just as clean, so I'm betting the OP has either got a bad batch which could happen or the coating is getting scratched during loading.
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Old 05-01-2020, 01:18 PM
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Default Hy Tek seems to be consistent....

...however, early on I ordered some powder coated bullets. They were so awful I never ordered powder coated again. Not a fair assessment, but I figured if things could go so badly wrong with the process, I'd try something else. I was so happy with the Hy Tek I never went back.
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Old 05-01-2020, 04:36 PM
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I pulled the following bullets - coating seems intact:


I dug these out of the berm - notice the lack of engraving and the erosion of the base edges:


Here is leading viewed from the breech:


And viewed from the muzzle:


I believe I have a simple case of undersized bullets. They measure 0.401", but I don't know how to measure a 5 land/groove bore.

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Old 05-01-2020, 06:40 PM
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Great photos of your issue! So, if the bullets aren't shaved as your photos suggest, and you are using the 18 Brinell, then it looks pretty much like blow by. You may have to slow them down a tad. I've had great success with the MBC Hy Tek, 12 Brinell, in .38 (158 g. SWC) up to +P velocities and in .44 Special (240 g. SWC), but no real magnums. Good luck figuring this out and let us know what you find.
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Old 05-01-2020, 06:52 PM
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I had that problem with a recent batch of Bayou Bullets. It wasn’t leading, but a coating of the coating material. Very difficult to remove. I contacted the company, excellent CS by the way, and they said was improperly applied coating on the bullets. They replaced them, and all is well.
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Old 05-01-2020, 07:24 PM
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Looks like lead! Out of curiosity dla, rub the bullet with acetone (if you have any), then smash it with a hammer. I'm thinking the coating isn't staying put looking at those fired bullets. The coating is gone from the bands.
Are these .001" over the barrel? I see only one bullet with a land groove.

Last edited by Collo Rosso; 05-01-2020 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 05-01-2020, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
Looks like lead! Out of curiosity dla, rub the bullet with acetone (if you have any), then smash it with a hammer. I'm thinking the coating isn't staying put looking at those fired bullets. The coating is gone from the bands.
Are these .001" over the barrel? I see only one bullet with a land groove.
There is a basic problem with these bullets - they measure .401" with the coating. So likely .400" without.

The coating gets blown off in the first 2", but this part of the barrel stays clean because the coating turns to smoke. Once the coating is gone, the blowby increases and erodes the lead, depositing it in the grooves. After the grooves fill, the barrel is a smoothbore and no more engraving happens.

So either the coating isnt sticking like it should, or MBC is coating undersized bullets. I'm thinking the latter. I would coat a .401" bullet, not try to make a .400" bullet larger by coating it.

Last edited by dla; 05-01-2020 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 05-01-2020, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
Looks like lead! Out of curiosity dla, rub the bullet with acetone (if you have any), then smash it with a hammer. I'm thinking the coating isn't staying put looking at those fired bullets. The coating is gone from the bands.
Are these .001" over the barrel? I see only one bullet with a land groove.
Rubbed with acetone and love tapped with a 3lb hammer.
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Old 05-02-2020, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
To me the spray on coating process is no better than the person doing it & can lead to inconsistencies.
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I contacted the company, excellent CS by the way, and they said was improperly applied coating on the bullets. They replaced them, and all is well.
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...but I figured if things could go so badly wrong with the process, I'd try something else.
MBC told me, after I complained, that they replaced the guy doing the coating.

Subsequent batches I got had similar trouble.

I quit buying coated bullets altogether.

Clearly they still have a problem with the process.

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Old 05-02-2020, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
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You sure it is "lead" and not just discoloration from the coating, carbon and dirt from the primers?. It would be interesting to find a bullet after it was shoot.
After torture testing several bullets with Hy Tec from MBC I doubt it is lead.
"It would be interesting to find a bullet after it was shot." I stack 4 or 5 plastic gallon jugs filled with water back to back. Shoot at a safe distance. Retrieve bullet from last penetrated jug and inspect. We call this a "water catch" in my neck of the woods. This has been the method I use to inspect my DIY bullet coating performance.
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Old 05-02-2020, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
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Rubbed with acetone and love tapped with a 3lb hammer.
As I understand it, bullets are coated, then sized. The coating isn't a thousandth of an inch thick.
When you rubbed it with acetone, did the rag turn gold? Looks like it lost some of the coating in the picture. I'm thinking this is your problem.
Brazos sells sample packs and he usually ships pretty fast. I'm getting into 10mm and got a sample pack delivered in a week a couple weeks ago. Notice I'm spending your money!
Curious if any difference when you test the Brazos bullet.
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Old 05-02-2020, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
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As I understand it, bullets are coated, then sized. The coating isn't a thousandth of an inch thick.
When you rubbed it with acetone, did the rag turn gold? Looks like it lost some of the coating in the picture. I'm thinking this is your problem.
Brazos sells sample packs and he usually ships pretty fast. I'm getting into 10mm and got a sample pack delivered in a week a couple weeks ago. Notice I'm spending your money!
Curious if any difference when you test the Brazos bullet.
I'll take a look at their product. In the mean time, I have some LLA coated bullets drying in the garage. If LLA cures the leading, (and I think it will), then the MBC hi tek coating sucks. If the LLA-coated fodder continues to lead, then I know the bullets are undersized for my bore - and I'll buy from someone who can supply .402.

I hate LLA, (don't like 45-45-10 either), but the stuff works.
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Old 05-02-2020, 05:00 PM
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I loaded some of the hi tek coated 155gr lswc to 1050fps pushed by Silhouette - still leads at the muzzle.

I also ordered some Brazos .402" hi tek coated - 180gr.
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Old 05-02-2020, 07:48 PM
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dla, you do know that MBC will sell oversized bullets too, if you send them an email about it first. I did that with some 44 mag bullets I ordered from them a while ago, sized .431 and it checked out with my dial caliper too.
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Old 05-02-2020, 08:19 PM
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dla, you do know that MBC will sell oversized bullets too, if you send them an email about it first. I did that with some 44 mag bullets I ordered from them a while ago, sized .431 and it checked out with my dial caliper too.
Good to know - thanks!
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:14 AM
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I'm running Missouri Bullet Company 155gr coated lswc through my M&P40 2.0 Compact - 4" barrel. I ran them up to 1250fps and started getting leading in the last inch of barrel - completely clean before that. It looks like a classic lube failure. Anyone else have experience with hitek (hytek, hi tek, etc.) Coating?
I just reread the original post... 40s&w in a 4" barrel semi-auto ran up to 1250fps? Wow! I went through a couple load data sights and your above every max load in FPS I could find, and the ones that did list a barrel length, it was was 5".
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Collo Rosso View Post
I just reread the original post... 40s&w in a 4" barrel semi-auto ran up to 1250fps? Wow! I went through a couple load data sights and your above every max load in FPS I could find, and the ones that did list a barrel length, it was was 5".
Hodgdon load data shows Longshot to nearly 1300fps at a shorter COL - 4" barrel. A 155gr @1200+fps is pretty common with the slower powders (power pistol, hs6, longshot, bluedot, 800x).
Whether or not you need a 155gr @1300fps is another question.
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Old 05-03-2020, 01:44 PM
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Exclamation You can say THAT again!

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Originally Posted by dla View Post
Hodgdon load data shows Longshot to nearly 1300fps at a shorter COL - 4" barrel. A 155gr @1200+fps is pretty common with the slower powders (power pistol, hs6, longshot, bluedot, 800x).
Whether or not you need a 155gr @1300fps is another question.
That's Buffalo Bore Country, IMHO...!
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Old 05-04-2020, 06:42 PM
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For those interested, Iordered a sample pack of .45 ACP 200 swc from Brazos on the 30th, and they arrived today (Monday). Pretty quick, especially over a weekend. Anyway, I pulled five at random, and they were all spot on .452. Two of them were 205 grains, and three were 204. Look great, can’t wait to try them.
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Old 05-04-2020, 06:53 PM
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I know you should not have to and it is some trouble but if you get stuck with a batch of these bullets you cannot use try a coat of ALOX and then shoot them.This has worked for me in some situations like you are reporting.
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  #36  
Old 05-05-2020, 12:05 PM
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I know you should not have to and it is some trouble but if you get stuck with a batch of these bullets you cannot use try a coat of ALOX and then shoot them.This has worked for me in some situations like you are reporting.
You're right. I loaded up a bunch of alox coated. Just have some chores to do before I can find out the results.
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:31 PM
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By chance have you contacted Brad at MBC??
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Old 05-05-2020, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mikld View Post
When using a conventional cast lead bullet/lube, when leading appears at the muzzle end of the barrel, it is most likely the lube "ran out" before bullet exits or didn't do it's job. Perhaps the coating "runs out", but I would consider it is only a 4" barrel. I believe if the bullet's coating was shaved, there would be leading down the entire length of the barrel, but it is definitely something to check. I never got into Hi-Tek coating but I have PCed many handgun and rifle bullets with good success (even in 30 cal rifles running 2,000+ fps and Magnum handguns running 1,300+ fps.). I have gotten fouling, but not leading in a few of my PCed bullets (9mm). I'd be interested is hearing the solution...
A properly lubed(not painted) cast bullet should leave a lube "star" on the the muzzle when everything is correct.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:08 PM
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S&W 44mag lube star:

Last edited by dla; 05-05-2020 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:58 PM
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Default The conclusion

Leading dissappeared with a coating of Alox. I ran these alox coated 155gr lswc to 1350fps. I don't intend to run that fast long-term - I've throttled them back. But it was interesting to see what Longshot can do. I was able to load these out to 1.16" - can't do that with all bullet profiles.

Here's what I've learned:
  1. MBC's Hi Tek coating sucks - It completely burns away before the end of the barrel.
  2. The MBC bullets are slightly undersized. I think a basic problem is that they are coated first, then sized, resulting in a complete dependence on the coating to seal the bore.
  3. I am giving Brazo's 180gr product a shot next - I have ordered .402". We'll see how well the coating works as a lube when it isn't subjected to blowby. And applied by someone else. I didn't like their 155gr bullet profile because I can't load them as long.
  4. Alox, as much as I dislike the stuff, does the job. If I sour on this Hi Tek coating, I'll mix up some more 45-45-10.

Thanks to everyone for you helpful input!

I've got MBC's 125gr 9-cone Hi Tek coated to try next.

Last edited by dla; 05-07-2020 at 12:01 AM.
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  #41  
Old 05-07-2020, 12:08 AM
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Odd. I've never had an issue with the Hi-Tek stuff from MBC.

I shoot a lot of the 125gn Cone bullets out of my Browning hi powers. The key is to make sure you have enough case bell at the mouth to not shave off the coating on seating.
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  #42  
Old 05-07-2020, 09:12 AM
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I shoot HT coated & also do my own. If the coating is cured nicely, should haven't any troubles. Size nonetheless subjects, so 0.401" will be the minimal for Leadership coaching. If you shave the coating for the duration of seating, you can get leading.
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Old 05-07-2020, 10:36 AM
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Odd. I've never had an issue with the Hi-Tek stuff from MBC.

I shoot a lot of the 125gn Cone bullets out of my Browning hi powers. The key is to make sure you have enough case bell at the mouth to not shave off the coating on seating.

Thousands of customers and millions of bullets can't be right.
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Old 05-08-2020, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
You sure it is "lead" and not just discoloration from the coating, carbon and dirt from the primers?. It would be interesting to find a bullet after it was shoot.
After torture testing several bullets with Hy Tec from MBC I doubt it is lead.
Your coating looks much thicker than mine.
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Old 05-10-2020, 12:16 PM
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Got my order from Brazos. They shipped the wrong profile and the wrong diameter.

But at least their Hi Tek coating looks better than Missouri Bullet Company's.

Also, the Monkeys at the post office manage to tear open Brazo's packaging, spilling some bullets. The USPS attached a little note and rewrapped. I've got to figure out how many bullets (of the wrong profile and wrong diameter) I received.
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Old 05-10-2020, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dla View Post
Got my order from Brazos. They shipped the wrong profile and the wrong diameter.

But at least their Hi Tek coating looks better than Missouri Bullet Company's.

Also, the Monkeys at the post office manage to tear open Brazo's packaging, spilling some bullets. The USPS attached a little note and rewrapped. I've got to figure out how many bullets (of the wrong profile and wrong diameter) I received.

Maybe you should just give up and cast and coat your own bullets, Then the would meet your specifications.


I asked if you ever contacted MBC but you did not say. Perhaps you did get some bullets that were not coated correctly, but to say MBC sucks based on your one situation is a bit much. Now Brazos sucks as well as USPS who ar3e monkeys?,??

I believe the owner of MBC, Brad shoots 10mm, he would certainly like to know if you got some poorly coated bullets
In some post in this thread, "spraying" was mentioned. The coating is not sprayed it is more or less dipped and then dipped again. They are sized after coating as it does increase the diameter a fraction. It is the correct way.
On many other reloading forums, MBC has an excellent reputation and offers a small discount to members of those forums. Their website is far and above Brazos to see what you are ordering.
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Old 05-10-2020, 02:45 PM
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I believe the owner of MBC, Brad shoots 10mm, he would certainly like to know if you got some poorly coated bullets
.
I'll let him know. Didn't make sense to contact him till I'd done my homework. This isn't my first rodeo...

The Brazos slip up is a classic case of someone in the shipping department having a brain fluff. The downside is that returns are a pain to ship (but only $7-$8). When it comes to shipping lead, it pays to do it right the first time.

The USPS issue is the first time I've seen them mangle a package that bad. Brazos put 500+ bullets in a heavy plastic bag and then into a small mailer and taped it heavily. There was just one spot where they didnt run the tape far enough and that is where the package opened.

Nice that you like to wave the pom-poms for your faves
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  #48  
Old 05-11-2020, 08:28 AM
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I'll let him know. Didn't make sense to contact him till I'd done my homework. This isn't my first rodeo...



Nice that you like to wave the pom-poms for your faves



Not at all waving fro them, I and many others have had no issue with the company, just don't like to see a bashing of any company without giving them a chance, People bash Midway, Brownells you name it. for some isolated incident. Gotta look at the whole picture.
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Old 05-11-2020, 05:53 PM
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No problem here with MBC hi-tek bullets. Trikerider
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Old 05-11-2020, 06:08 PM
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Update on the Brazos order. I used their "contact us" on their website. Attached some pictures to show the problem. Next day I get notice that they are shipping the correct stuff free of charge.
I really appreciate this because packaging and shipping bullets for returns is a pain in the tushie.
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