.38 S&W is a new-to-me caliber. I loaded my first set of test rounds and shot them yesterday.

Details: Colt Police Positive 4" barrel - made in 1912. HP-38. Missouri Bullet Company 145gr Hi-Tek coated - .361 diameter. Lee dies.

The only data I could find on the 145gr was at Hodgdon's website. They list 2.2-2.5gr of HP-38; with a COL of 1.200".

To get my cartridges to fit I had to load them shorter than Hodgdon: 1.145". I loaded 2.2gr and 2.3gr.

The 2.3gr had the best performance in terms of velocity consistency. The average speed seen from the 2.3gr rounds was 670 ft/sec.

At Hodgdon's max they report 630 ft/sec. Do you think 670 ft/sec is too fast for this bullet and bullet weight? I did some Googling to see what others are getting from lead 145gr and I *think* I'm concluding 670 is probably OK - but maybe slightly on the high side.

If it matters - I'm not going to be shooting this very much. I inherited the gun; I really like it; and I like it when a relatively old gun is able to go "bang" due to reloading efforts on my part.

Thanks.

OR

you can still find factory loaded ammo with some searching. I look for sales and generally can find some when I want it. You won't hurt that gun by shooting a box thru it once in a while.

__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Inherited from my Grandfather. Colt Police Positive. I've got 6 shots for it and I'm going to shoot it and make a wall wall hanger because it has a spring that is split. Mine dates from the '30's I think.

Have fun shooting yours.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

There are at least three factory loadings that I have seen, maybe four. Remington is a bit pricey. One brand was offered at $19.95 all depends on where you find it. I have one box of brass that has been fired 6 times after the original loading. I secured about 1000 pcs of Starline brass and have processed about half of it. That being sized it, trimmed it, and loaded most of it. I discovered Missouri Bullets and looked no further, opting for the coated version. My guns are from the 20s so being 100 years old, no need to hot rod them. I have other guns for that. This evening, I am loading up a box of shot shells as one of these little I frame guns are my trout fishing guns. See another post on this project if you have an interest. Have my eye on a bit newer Smith in this caliber but am still on the fence. I think it is a J frame. Don't know why I am drawn to this little gem but I am. Good Luck.

I don't think 670 fps is too fast for a 145 gr bullet.

quoted From Wikipedia

As aditional info. I have shot Fiocchi's 145 gr .38 S&W in my Enfield Mk 2, which is sighted for the 38/200 load, and it shoots about 1 foot lower than point of aim at 25 meters. So I think the Fiocchi load must be going much faster than the 620 fps of the 380/200 load.

I have some 200 gr cast bullets to try. But I still haven't used them.

__________________
Expect the unexpected

I owned a s&w 33-1 to load and keep the wear off my great grandmother's h&r top break, but after messing with the dies could not get the bullets to seat properly without crushing brass. I gave up and sold off my components and the 33-1. Have 2 boxes of factory if I want to give the h&r some love now and then. Otherwise it's another heirloom to pass to my son.

So long as the revolver has a solid frame (not one of the old top break models), the .38 S&W cartridge can easily be reloaded to duplicate .38 Special performance, i.e, a MV around 800 ft/sec. With one exception I know of (Buffalo Bore), all commercial .38 S&W ammunition sold today is loaded very lightly so it will be safe for use in the early top break revolvers. The Lyman lead bullet handbook has many load recipes for the .38 S&W, but they are all on the mild side. BTW, ordinary .357-.358 lead bullets as used for the .38 Special will perform about as well as .360-.361 bullets. My personal favorite handload for a solid frame .38 S&W revolver uses a 125 grain .358 lead bullet at a MV of almost 1000 ft/sec, ballistically similar to the Buffalo Bore loading. That is getting close to the 9mm.

My go to book is Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers published before WWII. Bullet weight from 147 - 150 grains - all lead round nose. Factory loadings ran from 2.0 - 2.3 grains of Bullseye. A friend who had a Victory type Smith in 38 S&W asked me to load some for him. Still have not tried them, but per Hatcher should be around 710-730 fps. This is what I loaded up with 160 grain SWC's and 148 grain hollow base WC's, sitting atop 2.3 grains of Bullseye.

Attached Images

38S&W loads.JPG (229.1 KB, 28 views)

Awesome responses folks.

Thanks so much!

OR

I did some testing back in 2013 and posted a narrative about it just for fun. Thought it was here on S&W Forum. Can't find it now, so will retread it. The "copy n' paste" needs an edit clean up, but don't have time to go back through it just now. Maybe I'll straighten it up later ... or maybe not.



An ancient handgun cartridge, the .38 S&W was developed, surprisingly enough, by Smith & Wesson in 1875 and first marketed in their .38 Single Action First Model, a top-break, spur trigger revolver. It proved to be a very popular round in its heyday, being featured in revolvers both of quality make and in the inexpensive suicide specials. This popularity didn’t wane to any significant degree until after World War II. Originally charged with black powder, it easily survived the transition to smokeless powder with its popularity intact. Colt appropriated the design, naming their version the .38 New Police. The British military establishment embraced it as the .38/200, loading it with an abnormally heavy 200 grain bullet and pronouncing it to be equal in effectiveness to the .455 Webley. Saying it’s so doesn’t make it so, but the Empire made use of the cartridge for the next 32 years.

Until recent years countless thousands of top break .38 S&W revolvers lurked in bureau drawers and on closet shelves. I am of the opinion that most of these may be now found lurking at the next Dallas Market Hall Gun Show or a show nearest you. The twentieth century saw some really nice .38 S&W revolvers brought out that still could serve as a collectible shooter, historical military curiosity, or could even be pressed into service as a close-in defense weapon.

Performance? Not the Worst Handgun One Could Be Stuck With.


The Baltimore City Police apparently though enough of the .38 S&W to arm its policemen with the aforementioned Smith & Wesson Single Action First Model, which served them from 1876 until 1917.

The stubby .38 is roundly sneered at by all who even bother to comment on it. Modern factory loads as provided by Remington and Winchester are anemic out of concerns that certain reckless elements in the gun fraternity (like your author) will fire their product in the many weak, black powder era, top break revolvers. This practice has been warned against for years. I’ll be frank. I have never heard of anyone blowing himself up firing the suicide specials, however I’ll add my caution to refrain from firing them too. Bits of iron in one’s head are an unnecessary impediment to good health and the wrong way to get one’s daily allowance. For myself, before I traded it away I enjoyed the use of a Smith & Wesson .38 Double Action Second Model for some years, the factory letter of which indicated it was shipped to Simmons Hardware, Chicago, Illinois in 1882. This was a spunky little revolver. The trigger pull, both single and double action, was much heavier than a modern product from that firm. It stayed tight for the years that I owned it, probably firing 5 or 6 boxes of ammo during that time. It was my first small concealable handgun and I used to carry it when arrowhead hunting or fishing. It proved handy to dispatch a copperhead snake on one occasion.

I would feel about as well armed with a .38 S&W revolver as with a .380 auto. The best way to utilize it would be as a “face gun”. One might look at the .38 S&W revolver as “fists in an aerosol can.” It’d be easier and safer to “spray” one’s assailant in the face with some .38 lead than to close with him in order to throw a punch. The slugs are relatively heavy at 146 grains and most loads I’ve encountered contain bullets of very soft lead. The blow inflicted by such a bullet at short range would be distressing to say the least and very likely disabling as well.

A “high performance” option for the .38 S&W owner would be the 200 grain lead round nosed bullet. I obtained a quantity of old Western 200 grain copper plated factory loads a few years ago. These were much more impressive than current factory fodder and were wonderfully accurate in my Webley Mark IV. Unfortunately they are no longer manufactured.

A “low performance” load is the similar, yet very slightly smaller in diameter, .38 Short Colt. This load can be used in revolvers chambered for .38 S&W but there is no particular advantage in doing so. Featuring a 125 grain bullet, it stumbles from the barrel with all the velocity that could be provided by a wrist rocket sling shot.


The .38 S&W shown with the .38 Short Colt.

In some of the relatively modern solid frame revolvers the .38 S& W could be improved by judicious handloading. I would willingly use such handloads in the British military top break revolvers such as the Webley or the Enfield or the 20th century solid frame swing-out cylinder models of Colt or Smith & Wesson make. Of course one will carefully work up any handloads in any .38 S&W or for that matter any firearm, won’t one?

The .38 S&W doesn’t share the .38 Special’s dimensions being slightly larger in diameter. The .38 S&W bullet has a diameter of .359 -.360 and a case diameter of .386. The .38 Special’s bullet diameter runs .357 and the case is .379. Sometimes the .38 S&W may be chambered in .38 Special guns and may be fired in perfect safety. Sometimes they won’t quite fit and forcing the issue will result in a stuck cartridge and the need to find something to prod them out of the cylinder.



The Inevitable Ballistics Chart

2-inch barrel

146 grain factory load 728 fps
200 grain factory load 737 fps
130 grain.38 Short Colt load 610 fps
British military 178 grain load (published data) 630 fps
Handload 158 grain lead SWC/Unique 739 fps

Two manufacturers who still load .38 S&W are Remington and Winchester. Buffalo Bore has only recently added a rather peppy loading of .38 S&W to their high-performance cartridge line-up, a 125 grain lead semi-wadcutter with an advertised velocity of 1000 fps. While it's hard to imagine a company taking up the .38 S&W at this late date, I applaud their efforts and intend to get enough of this ammunition to conduct tests.
www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350

I have three revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W: another Smith & Wesson .38 DA from 1888, a Colt Bankers' Special snub and a Webley Mark IV with the standard 5 inch barrel. The Colt and the Webley reliably and eagerly function with all loads I’ve fired. The Webley is quite accurate but requires the heavy 200 grain bullets to impact the target in accordance with the sight picture. Brought out in 1927, the Banker’s Special must have been marketed to wimpy bankers who could not manage the recoil of the Detective Special taking the .38 Special cartridge, which was also brought out by Colt about the same time. The Banker’s Special, which was built on the Police Positive frame, was also marketed in .22 for the sissiest of bankers. The .22 variation is quite scarce.


Should You Shoot Yours?


Good, usable revolvers in .38 S&W include:

British military top-break revolvers

Enfield (some mfg’d at Albion Motors)
Webley Mk IV

Smith & Wesson models

Perfected Model (S&W’s last top break design)
.38 S&W chambered Victory, Military & Police (WWII British contract revolvers)
Regulation Police
Terrier
Model 11 (fat chance of finding one)
Model 32
Model 33

Colt models

New Police
Police Positive
Bankers' Special
Detective Special (some few were made in .38 S&W)
Official Police (a few produced on the eve of WW II for a British contract)
Model 1873 Single Action Army (Yeah, you saw right - a few were so chambered)

Ruger Service Six (probably the very strongest of .38 S&W revolvers)

MODERN Harrington & Richardson top break models

Model 925/935 Defender (mfg’d from 1964 to1986-stay away from 19th century H&R’s)

Though I would shoot the 19th century Smith & Wesson break-open revolver to a limited extent I can’t recommend it to the Forum readership. Any other brand (and there are jillions of names) of these break-open revolvers should be retired to a display case. This includes the Belgian or other Continental European makes.

This modest cartridge may not be on the cutting edge of handgun technology but it played its own part in taming the American West and was in wide use throughout the world in bygone times. I confess to wishing that a few updated loads would be introduced for it but consider myself lucky that it is still loaded at all. If one owns a revolver chambered for the .38 S&W, give it some range time. Just for fun.

Several series of handloads were tested over the chronograph screens over a couple of hours late Saturday afternoon and a couple more hours late Sunday afternoon.

Loads were not uniformly tested in 10-round series due to constraints dictated by the supply of 200 grain bullets but rather were tested in 6 to 10 round series. Therefore standard deviations may be less than truly meaningful in all instances but they were calculated.

Cartridge cases used for these tests consisted primarily of Remington (R - P headstamped) nickel plated cases with one additional box of older Remington-UMC brass cases also used.

In all tests, the cartridge cases gave normal ejection and exhibited normal primers except for the heavy Unique and Herco load when fired in the Webley. A single pierced primer apiece for each load was observed. It was noted that the firing pin has some roughness that needs smoothing, nonetheless this could be an indication that pressure was straining things a bit.

Loading these long and heavy bullets in the .38 S&W is not for the careless handloader with haphazard habits and no attention to detail.

It was arbitrarily determined to disregard the recommended .38 S&W cartridge overall length of 1.20" when producing handloads using long 200 grain bullets. Measurements taken of factory loads proved even shorter, coming in at 1.170". If the seating die was adjusted to factory .38 S&W cartridge lengths in preparation to seat 200 grain bullets, then a compressed or near-compressed powder charge would result. Considering the range of fast-burning powders useful for handloading the .38 S&W, compressing a charge of powder with the bullet would very likely cause a high-pressure event to perhaps dismal conclusions if the resulting loaded cartridge was fired.

A cartridge overall length of 1.273 was settled on as a proper compromise between allowing enough internal space to accommodate all powder charges while insuring the bullets would not crowd the the chamber mouths of the cylinders of the test revolvers.

Each and every powder charge thrown was hand-weighed and any correction was adjusted for. This may have contributed to the pleasingly small extreme spreads generally seen throughout the tests. Old reference works on the .38 S&W indicate it had a reputation for great accuracy and some target arms were turned out by the premier handgun manufacturers of the later 19th century. Perhaps the .38 S&W's extremely small case capacity coupled with low operating pressures contributes to uniformity and makes it a now-unheralded choice for accuracy work if housed in a well-made gun.

And so we come to the Mother Of All Chronograph Testing of the .38 S&W with an emphasis on the 200 grain bullet.

Colt Bankers' Special with 2-inch barrel

Factory Load: Winchester 145 grain round-nose lead

742 fps Muzzle Velocity
177 ft/lbs Muzzle Energy
55 fps Extreme Spread
22.6 Standard Deviation

Factory Load: Winchester 200 grain round-nose lead (probably pre-war ammunition)

647 fps MV
186 ft./lbs ME
18 fps ES
8.4 SD

Handloads used primarily centered around experimentation with a 100 round batch of 200 grain .360" diameter cast lead round-nose bullets.

158 grain .358" cast lead semi-wadcutter, 2.5 grains Red Dot (from a batch loaded 11/23/95)

738 fps MV
191 ft./lbs. ME
25 fps ES
10.1 SD

200 grain Remington .358" lead round-nose, 3.1 grains Unique (from a batch loaded 11/16/95)

741 fps MV
244 ft./lbs. ME
80 fps ES
20.3 SD

All the following loads were produced with a 200 grain cast lead bullet as kindly provided by
LouisianaMan. This bullet differed from the Remington 200 grain component bullet in having a slightly more blunt nose profile.

2.0 grains Red Dot

620 fps MV
170 ft./lbs ME
37 fps ES
15.6 SD

2.2 grains W231

644 fps MV
189 ft./lbs ME
24 fps ES
10.3 SD

2.3 grains Green Dot

635 fps MV
179 ft./lbs. ME
30 ES
12.0 SD

2.4 grains (new) Unique

614 fps MV
167 ft./lbs. ME
59 fps ES
59.7 SD

2.7 grains Herco

Was attempted unsuccessfully. The chronograph gave "no-reads" and on three occasions bullets were stuck in the barrels of both revolvers just ahead of the forcing cones. This load is too light.


"Performance" .38 S&W Loading

The following loads could be considered as unofficial .38 S&W "+P" loads. These would only be suitable in quality late vintage Colt and Smith & Wesson solid-frame revolvers having swing out cylinders, in the Webley and Enfield .38/200 revolvers produced for British military contracts, or their commercial equivalents. Commercial Webley .38 revolvers were produced for many years prior to the adoption of the very similar military issue Enfield No. 2 Mk I in 1931. Early Webley .38 revolvers probably should not be fired using such loads. Any use of these loads in any 19th century revolver of top-break design would very likely come to grief.

A side-by-side test of "old" Unique and this new "cleaner burning" Unique was conducted during this part of the testing in order to discover any differences between the two. While it could only be an indication of lot-to-lot variations, when examined with results from similar chronograph tests in the .38 Special and the .45 ACP it tends to indicate that the new formulation of Unique is a bit more energetic. Old familiar Unique load data for a reloader's favorite cartridges should be retested by working up.

So-called "+P" efforts with the 200 grain bullet in the Colt

3.0 grains "Old" Unique

644 fps MV
184 ft./lbs ME
72 ES
30.3 SD

3.0 grains "New" Unique

689 fps MV
210 ft./lbs. ME
19 ES
7.1 SD

3.3 grains Herco

767 fps MV
261 ft./lbs. ME
31 fps ES
15.1 SD




Webley Mark VI with 5-inch barrel

Factory Load: Winchester 145 grain round-nose lead

712 fps MV
163 ft./lbs. ME
75 fps ES
32.2 SD

Factory Load: Winchester 200 grain round-nose lead
638 fps MV
187 ft./lbs. ME
42 fps ES
18.1 SD


Handloads

158 grain .358" cast lead semi-wadcutter, 2.5 grains Red Dot

714 fps MV
179 ft./lbs.
58 fps ES
24.1 SD

200 grain Remington lead round-nose; 3.1 grains Unique

725 fps MV
233 ft./lbs. ME
59 fps ES
26.0 SD

Handloads with 200 grain bullet provided by LouisianaMan

2.0 grains Red Dot

620 fps MV
170 ft./lbs ME
37 ES
15.6 SD

2.2 grains W231

603 fps MV
162 ft./lbs. ME
19 ES
10.5 SD

2.3 grains Green Dot

595 fps MV
157 ft./lbs. ME
40 ES
18.7 SD

2.4 grains (New) Unique

575 fps MV
147 ft./lbs. ME
10 fps ES
4.7 SD

So-called "+P" efforts with the 200 grain bullet in the Webley

3.0 grains "Old" Unique

635 fps MV
179 ft./lbs. ME
54 fps ES
25.4 SD

3.0 grains "New" Unique

659 fps MV
193 ft./lbs. ME
56 fps ES
20.4 SD

3.3 grains Herco

726 fps MV
234 ft./lbs. ME
52 fps ES
20.5 SD

Some Observations

These were velocity tests only. Penetration tests in water-filled gallon milk jugs and other "non-tests" will be conducted at a future date.

I was surprised to find that the 5-inch barrel of the Webley consistently clocked slower velocities than the 2-inch snub Colt. An examination of the Webley showed a somewhat larger barrel/cylinder gap than I had remembered in the revolver. End-shake was apparent and the revolver could benefit from a shim.

It was curious how the light charge of Herco was a bust, too weak to propel the bullet reliably yet the maximum charge of Herco used gave the 200 grain bullet the highest velocities of the day. When one considers that the difference between the two charges is only 6/10ths of a grain it becomes apparent that cartridges with very small case capacities have less room for error.

Webley bore diameter slugs .360". Colt bore diameter slugs .359".

I've loaded .358" 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullets in the .38 S&W for years, using them in both of the test revolvers and enjoying perfect satisfaction at ranges to 15 yards. These bullets group quite well despite what is sometimes claimed on firearms forums about shooting undersized .38 Special bullets through the larger .38 S&W bore.

The Webley loves the 200 grain bullet and shoots it accurately and to point of aim. The lighter 145 grain factory loads and the 158 grain handloads shoot low. The Colt shoots the 200 grain bullet 8-10 inches high at 10 yards.

I cannot explain why the old 200 grain Remington .38 Special bullet used with 3.1 grains of Unique (741 fps from the Colt), as loaded in 1995, registered such a higher velocity when fired in the same chronograph session as the two different lots of Unique loaded to 3.0 (the fastest lot of Unique at 689 fps as fired from the Colt ). Bullet was different than LouisianaMan's batch in the following ways: diameter .002 smaller, bullet was longer, lube is different and the crimp may have been heavier on the Remington bullet (don't remember 18 years later).

Only a moderate crimp was utilized with this batch of 200 grain .38 S&W handloads. The case mouth was turned into the bottom of the second driving band just enough to maintain tension. No bullets jumped their crimps. Of course even with these heavy bullet loads the recoil of the revolvers is more of a push than an abrupt impulse.

I sometimes refer to the Bankers' Special as "the plucky little Colt" and it lived up to it's nickname during the test. It churned through the entire test with nary a bobble or complaint. With the 3.3 grains of Herco, it felt much like the Detective Special in recoil. The square butt frame makes it a non-issue.

To Summarize

The average runt .380 automatic pistol holds the same number of cartridges as the Bankers' Special. The .380 bullets typically weigh 100 grains or less, giving the pistol a 600 grain payload when fully loaded. One the other hand, the very compact Bankers' Special revolver can be loaded with 1200 grains of heavy lead and fling the bullets to adequate velocities.

Even the 5-shot Smith & Wesson Models 32 and 33, Terriers, Regulation Police, and general run of I-Frame and J-Frame .38 S&W revolvers can field 1000 grains of lead. Of course one has to reload the .38 S&W to gain performance of this sort.

What all this means is that the .38 S&W reigns supreme and the .380 eats dirt!

I have never before seen a picture of factory 38S&W ammo with a 200 grain bullet before. Thank you bmcgilvray!

Some great information within. I have a 8lb keg of Unique from about 1985. Old enough? I need to print this infor out.
THANKS

Probably the most widespread use of the .38 S&W cartridge was by the British Commonwealth military during WWII and later. The British military replaced their .455 revolvers after WWI (in the late 1920s) with the Enfield .380 top break revolver, designed for a cartridge nearly identical, dimensionally and ballistically, to the ancient .38 S&W cartridge. In some ways, this was a mysterious choice, as by that time there were numerous revolver cartridges (such a the .38 Special) which would have offered superior performance and certainly better semiautomatic handguns. Be that as it may, they called the new cartridge the .380 Revolver, Mark I. Initially, it had a 200 grain lead bullet, the idea being that the longer bullet would be more unstable, yawing in body tissue and producing increased damage. Just prior to WWII, the bullet was changed to a 178 grain FMJ bullet (resulting in the .380 Mark II cartridge) to comply with the requirements of the 1899 Hague Convention prohibiting use of "expanding bullets" in warfare. While ".38/200" has been tossed around a lot in reference to both the .380 Mark I/II cartridge and the revolvers firing it, it was not an officially-used designation for either.

Would that load be ok in a Terrier if used for carry purposes?

__________________
Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760