OP
DeplorabusUnum
Member
OK, now I at least have to try out a couple of flame thrower loads from the pistol.
Re-loading for new 357 toys
- Thread starter DeplorabusUnum
- Start date
From my own experience with reloading the 357 Magnum and a S&W Model 19-3 (4 inch barrel). Bullseye is hard to beat for low velocity, plinking, and target loads. 148 grain lead wadcutter or 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter bullets with a light to medium load of Bullseye is hard to beat.
For mid-range loads, duplicating full power 38 Special and 38 Special +P or just a bit beyond 38 Special +P velocity, a 158 grain hard cast lead semi-wadcutter and a medium to full charge of Unique are hard to beat.
For full power 357 Magnum loads, I'd go with a 158 grain jacketed hollow point bullet. H-110/W-296 is the powder for absolute maximum velocity, but it will produce a massive fireball and will lead to barrel forcing cone erosion. H-110/W-296 is a powder that cannot be reduced very much from full charge weights, it tends to suffer from erratic burning with charges less than 5% below maximum. No, reduced charges are not likely to detonate and explode, but you will see a lot of unburned or partially combusted powder granules and a wide spread in velocity. I think 2400, even though you will not see the absolute fastest velocities, is a more forgiving and versatile powder. It might be a little easier on the thin forcing cone too.
All of my reloads for my 357 revolvers are in 357 Magnum brass and the only time you need magnum primers would be for using the powders that are the hardest to ignite, those being H-110/W-296, HS-6, and HS-7.
A word about bullet weight and the pre-Classic Model 19/66. The older 19/66 forcing cones have a very thin spot at the bottom of the cone. This area can crack, which will ruin the barrel. Using magnum loads with bullets of less than 140 grains in weight seems to be the leading culprit of cracked forcing cones.
For mid-range loads, duplicating full power 38 Special and 38 Special +P or just a bit beyond 38 Special +P velocity, a 158 grain hard cast lead semi-wadcutter and a medium to full charge of Unique are hard to beat.
For full power 357 Magnum loads, I'd go with a 158 grain jacketed hollow point bullet. H-110/W-296 is the powder for absolute maximum velocity, but it will produce a massive fireball and will lead to barrel forcing cone erosion. H-110/W-296 is a powder that cannot be reduced very much from full charge weights, it tends to suffer from erratic burning with charges less than 5% below maximum. No, reduced charges are not likely to detonate and explode, but you will see a lot of unburned or partially combusted powder granules and a wide spread in velocity. I think 2400, even though you will not see the absolute fastest velocities, is a more forgiving and versatile powder. It might be a little easier on the thin forcing cone too.
All of my reloads for my 357 revolvers are in 357 Magnum brass and the only time you need magnum primers would be for using the powders that are the hardest to ignite, those being H-110/W-296, HS-6, and HS-7.
A word about bullet weight and the pre-Classic Model 19/66. The older 19/66 forcing cones have a very thin spot at the bottom of the cone. This area can crack, which will ruin the barrel. Using magnum loads with bullets of less than 140 grains in weight seems to be the leading culprit of cracked forcing cones.
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I'm not a big fan of H110 / Win 296 in S&W K frame revolvers.
125 gra bullets have taken the rap for excessive forcing cone erosion and cracked forcing cones in Model 19s in particular, and the internet myth is that this is due to the shorter bullet allowing gas to pass the bullet in the cylinder, arrive at the forcing cone and pre-heat it before the bullet arrives, causing the forcing cone to crack.
There are serious and fatal flaws in that hypothesis.
1) Anyone who ever stayed awake in a thermodynamics class can pretty well figure out that there just isn't enough time for that gas and plasma to transfer any significant heat.
2) 110 grain bullets use heavier charges of any given powder and are even shorter in length, yet those bullets are not associated with forcing cone cracks.
3) cracks don't magically happen, the form due to a stress riser, and the largest single cause of a stress riser is forcing cone erosion.
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The 125 gr bullets were associated with forcing cracks due to the convergence of a few different factors at more or less the same point in time:
- The 125 gr JHP load became very popular in law enforcement circles and largely replaced other 158 gr loads;
- Powder makers started making very economical and quick to produce colloidal ball powders using surplus naval gun powder; and
- Many police departments that in the past had trained with .38 Special and used .357 Magnum only for duty use, now used .357 Magnum for training as well, increasing the percentage of .357 Magnum loads used in Model 19s and similar K frames from maybe 2% to 100%.
Why did that matter?
Comparatively slow burning colloidal ball pistol powders use large charges. Around 9 grains of a medium burn rate pistol powder like Unique is a maximum load for a 125 gr bullet in the .357 Magnum. In comparison around 21-22 grains is a max load for a coloidal ball powder used with a 125 gr bullet in the .357 Magnum. That's over twice the powder mass, and that means twice as much plasma flowing through the forcing cone with each shot. In addition, where a large percentage of the faster burning flake powders will be consumed before it ever reaches the forcing cone, the slower burning coloidal ball powders have a very high percentage of unburnt powder passing through the forcing cone. That forcing cone, heated by twice as much powder, and subject to abrasive un burnt and partially burnt powder passing through it experiences significantly more erosion.
Even when comparing ball powders in 125 gr and 158 gr loads, you'll see 15-16 grain max loads for the 158 gr bullets, and 21-22 grains for the 125 gr bullets. Those 125 gr loads are about 40% larger than the 158 gr loads and experience commensurately more forcing cone erosion.
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Thos ball powders get used as they do produce higher velocities, especially in 4, 6 and 8 inch barrels. However, they also produce a lot more recoil.
Consider 9 grains of Unique launching a 125 gr bullet at 1350 fps in a 3" Model 66 that weighs 36 oz.
Recoil Velocity: 13.4 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 6.3 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 0.9 lb•s
Now compare that to the same 125 gr bullet at the same 1350 fps launched with 21 grains of H110 in the same 36 oz Model 66:
Recoil Velocity: 17.0 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 10.1 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.2 lb•s
It produces:
27% more recoil velocity;
60% more recoil energy; and
33% more recoil impulse.
But no more bullet velocity.
That's because that greater mass of powder exits the muzzle at about 3 times the muzzle velocity of the bullet and even though it's in gas/plasma form it still retains all its mass.
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More to the point, it is true that you'll get greater velocity from the ball powder loads, but based on my chronograph results over the last 30 years loading .357 Magnum, in various barrel lengths you're talking about maybe 50-100 fps in a 4" or 6" barrel and you are talking about maybe 25-40 fps in a 2 1/2" or 3" barrel.
The juice just isn't worth the squeeze in a short barrel .357 Magnum.
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With that background, I'm not a fan of abusing my K frame or J Magnum frame .357s with H110 or Win 296.
I much prefer 9 grains of Unique under a well made 125 JHP for a self defense load. The Hornady 125 gr XTP will expand well with a 9.0 to 9.5 grain load Unique at a minimum of 1300 fps and it's an exceptionally accurate bullet and load with reasonable recoil in a 2 1/2", 3", or 4" revolver.
I'm also a fan of around 6 grains of Unique with a 158 gr cast LSWC which will give a velocity around 1000-1050 fps in a 2 1/2" to 4" revolver. It's a good target load when you want more than .38 Special velocities, and with a suitably soft LSWCHP it's not a bad self defense load.
125 gra bullets have taken the rap for excessive forcing cone erosion and cracked forcing cones in Model 19s in particular, and the internet myth is that this is due to the shorter bullet allowing gas to pass the bullet in the cylinder, arrive at the forcing cone and pre-heat it before the bullet arrives, causing the forcing cone to crack.
There are serious and fatal flaws in that hypothesis.
1) Anyone who ever stayed awake in a thermodynamics class can pretty well figure out that there just isn't enough time for that gas and plasma to transfer any significant heat.
2) 110 grain bullets use heavier charges of any given powder and are even shorter in length, yet those bullets are not associated with forcing cone cracks.
3) cracks don't magically happen, the form due to a stress riser, and the largest single cause of a stress riser is forcing cone erosion.
-----
The 125 gr bullets were associated with forcing cracks due to the convergence of a few different factors at more or less the same point in time:
- The 125 gr JHP load became very popular in law enforcement circles and largely replaced other 158 gr loads;
- Powder makers started making very economical and quick to produce colloidal ball powders using surplus naval gun powder; and
- Many police departments that in the past had trained with .38 Special and used .357 Magnum only for duty use, now used .357 Magnum for training as well, increasing the percentage of .357 Magnum loads used in Model 19s and similar K frames from maybe 2% to 100%.
Why did that matter?
Comparatively slow burning colloidal ball pistol powders use large charges. Around 9 grains of a medium burn rate pistol powder like Unique is a maximum load for a 125 gr bullet in the .357 Magnum. In comparison around 21-22 grains is a max load for a coloidal ball powder used with a 125 gr bullet in the .357 Magnum. That's over twice the powder mass, and that means twice as much plasma flowing through the forcing cone with each shot. In addition, where a large percentage of the faster burning flake powders will be consumed before it ever reaches the forcing cone, the slower burning coloidal ball powders have a very high percentage of unburnt powder passing through the forcing cone. That forcing cone, heated by twice as much powder, and subject to abrasive un burnt and partially burnt powder passing through it experiences significantly more erosion.
Even when comparing ball powders in 125 gr and 158 gr loads, you'll see 15-16 grain max loads for the 158 gr bullets, and 21-22 grains for the 125 gr bullets. Those 125 gr loads are about 40% larger than the 158 gr loads and experience commensurately more forcing cone erosion.
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Thos ball powders get used as they do produce higher velocities, especially in 4, 6 and 8 inch barrels. However, they also produce a lot more recoil.
Consider 9 grains of Unique launching a 125 gr bullet at 1350 fps in a 3" Model 66 that weighs 36 oz.
Recoil Velocity: 13.4 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 6.3 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 0.9 lb•s
Now compare that to the same 125 gr bullet at the same 1350 fps launched with 21 grains of H110 in the same 36 oz Model 66:
Recoil Velocity: 17.0 ft/s
Recoil Energy: 10.1 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.2 lb•s
It produces:
27% more recoil velocity;
60% more recoil energy; and
33% more recoil impulse.
But no more bullet velocity.
That's because that greater mass of powder exits the muzzle at about 3 times the muzzle velocity of the bullet and even though it's in gas/plasma form it still retains all its mass.
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More to the point, it is true that you'll get greater velocity from the ball powder loads, but based on my chronograph results over the last 30 years loading .357 Magnum, in various barrel lengths you're talking about maybe 50-100 fps in a 4" or 6" barrel and you are talking about maybe 25-40 fps in a 2 1/2" or 3" barrel.
The juice just isn't worth the squeeze in a short barrel .357 Magnum.
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With that background, I'm not a fan of abusing my K frame or J Magnum frame .357s with H110 or Win 296.
I much prefer 9 grains of Unique under a well made 125 JHP for a self defense load. The Hornady 125 gr XTP will expand well with a 9.0 to 9.5 grain load Unique at a minimum of 1300 fps and it's an exceptionally accurate bullet and load with reasonable recoil in a 2 1/2", 3", or 4" revolver.
I'm also a fan of around 6 grains of Unique with a 158 gr cast LSWC which will give a velocity around 1000-1050 fps in a 2 1/2" to 4" revolver. It's a good target load when you want more than .38 Special velocities, and with a suitably soft LSWCHP it's not a bad self defense load.
bigggbbruce
Member
My pet peeve...
Guns aren't toys.
Guns aren't toys.
Yes, I think trailboss is well worth it. A great/safe powder for fun plinking.
I don't think you really want to use any "Stinking" Trail Boss powder, that is hard to find and cost a little more than other powders, even though it is a great safe powder for beginner loaders and super light target loads.
Besides, it only gets "Fair" accuracy in my weapons...........
Besides, it only gets "Fair" accuracy in my weapons...........
Real simple recipes for 66-8.
148 gr WC 3.5 to 4 gr AA 2
125 gr truncated cone AA 5 6% under book max. Slams the shooting tree around pronto without having to wear plugs under earmuffs.
New K frames are as strong as the L-frames.
No quirks or limitations except SAAMI.
148 gr WC 3.5 to 4 gr AA 2
125 gr truncated cone AA 5 6% under book max. Slams the shooting tree around pronto without having to wear plugs under earmuffs.
New K frames are as strong as the L-frames.
No quirks or limitations except SAAMI.
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OP
DeplorabusUnum
Member
Great information. Thank you. I think I'll use the H110 primarily for the Henry rifle. Unique and CFE Pistol are probably going to give me good results in the 2.75" revolver.
OP
DeplorabusUnum
Member
Now that's an explanation you can sink your teeth into. Thank you! Would you load a LWC with the same powder charge as a plated WC?
OP
DeplorabusUnum
Member
I pretty much wanted Trail Boss for my 120 yr old 32-20 hand ejector. One double load in that old gal wouldn't be pretty.I don't think you really want to use any "Stinking" Trail Boss powder, that is hard to find and cost a little more than other powders, even though it is a great safe powder for beginner loaders and super light target loads.
Besides, it only gets "Fair" accuracy in my weapons...........
.38SuperMan
Member
I’ve been trying XTP 124gn hollow points. They were on sale pretty cheap so I bought 3 boxes to play with.
I picked up a bottle of H110 yesterday and thought I’d see what a heavier load was like. I loaded 21 grains under the 124 xtp and took 7 rounds to the range just to get a feel for them.
First, I’m in my 70’s and getting pretty arthritic and like lighter loads. I’m not super sensitive to recoil but don’t think I’d want to shoot these loads all day and certainly wouldn’t want to shoot them in a revolver. Second, in informal shooting I think
They were pretty accurate but only shooting from a rest will tell. Third, they shot very clean.
If I were a hunter this might be the right powder but I’m just too lazy to hunt. This old dog don’t hunt.
Back to my HS-6 or CFE Pistol and 158 JHP’s and coated 158 RNFP Acmes.
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fredj338
Member
I actually shoot quite a bit of wst in 9mm & 40 too. I just find BE filthy & the recoil impulse is sharper.
Yes, but it's complicated.
You want to match the pressure of the load to the alloy hardness. If the alloy is too soft for the pressure, it will obturate just fine, but you'll get some blow by and gas cutting, which will leave lead in the bore. In extreme cases, the bullet will "strip" in the rifling and you'll get both horrible leading and a bullet that won't spin enough to stabilize.
On the other hand, if the alloy is too hard, it will not obturate enough or soon enough in the bore and you'll get gas cutting and leading in the bore as the gas goes around the bullet.
Generally speaking using an alloy that is too hard os more common than using one that is too soft.
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Plated bullets usually have a very soft nearly pure lead core with a thin copper plating that really functions much like the lube on a cast or swaged lead bullet.
You can find heavy plated bullets that are designed for 1500-1800 fps, but they are usually for cartridges like the .30 carbine or .30-30 Win. Most regular thin plated bullets are not intended for more than about 1200-1250 fps - and that's only about 100-150 fps faster than what you can do with a soft swaged lead bullet using a good lubricant.
That 100-150 fps however can be significant. I'd love to see a thin plated 158 gr LSWCHP with a pure lead core as I could then launch them at around 1150-1200 fps and get excellent expansion without the leading issues that can be an issue with a swaged lead LSWCHP.
You can certainly drive harder lead alloys (like Lyman No 2, which
at a bhn of 15 is close to ideal for .357 Magnum pressures, or a slightly softer 1-20 tin/lead alloy with a bhn of around 10-11 which is great for mid range .357 magnum loads) faster, but then you run into expansion issues.
When I used to cast bullets, I'd use 9 pounds of clip on wheel weights alloyed with 1 pound of 50/50 bar solder to get an alloy close to Lyman No 2 at low cost. 1.5% to 2% tin content in the alloy also helps reduce the dross and gives you a much nicer fill in the mold.
Bullet diameter also makes a huge difference in terms of avoiding leading.
For example, I worked up a swaged soft lead158 gr LSWCHP load for my 2 1/2" Model 66 and 2 1/2" 686+ at around 1100 fps. The load shot very well, with excellent accuracy, excellent expansion and penetration, but it took some work to avoid leading issues. I ended up having to lube them and then tumble lube them in liquid Alox to be able to put 50 rounds down range with no leading.
However, when I bought a 3" 686+, the first time I tried the load in it, I had bullets going through the target sideways at 7 yards. The cylinder and bore dimensions were enough larget that the bullet just wasn't obturating enough in the bore to adequately engage the rifling, and it needed a larger diameter bullet. Basically it was the difference between a cylinder's chambers being cut with a new reamer to larger dimensions than occurs with an old reamer.
Generally speaking you want a bullet sized to fit the dimensions of the leade - being about .001" oversized seems to work well.
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Lately, I've gotten lazy and I've become a plated bullet fan as you can push a soft lead plated bullet harder than a soft lead non plated without leading issues. A lot of shooters like powder coated bullets for the same reasons.
OP
DeplorabusUnum
Member
Well today I loaded up some of the 158 gr XTPs. I made 50 for the Henry rifle with 16.5 gr of H110. For the revolver I used the same bullet with 6.6gr of Unique with standard primers. I'm still waiting on some lead bullets for some really gentle loads for the revolver. I'm really hoping my wife likes shooting it. If the Unique rounds are too much, I'll use some lead bullets with a small Bullseye or WST load. I appreciate you sharing your expertise in the science of launching projectiles down range. There is always more to learn! Happy shooting.
I load for several 357 revolvers and a Marlin 1894 rifle, and use the same load in them all.
4.5 grs of Universal with a 158 RNFP lubed from Missouri Bullets. Roughly 800 fps in the revolvers (4" barrels) and 1200 or so in the rifle. Great plinking loads. Everyone loves them.
All my Smiths are without the Hillary hole, 19, 66's, 586 and a 27.
4.5 grs of Universal with a 158 RNFP lubed from Missouri Bullets. Roughly 800 fps in the revolvers (4" barrels) and 1200 or so in the rifle. Great plinking loads. Everyone loves them.
All my Smiths are without the Hillary hole, 19, 66's, 586 and a 27.
Fast burning powders like Bullseye and Red Dot make great target loads in a .357 magnum revolver, although I usually load them in .38 Special brass. .38 Special brass is cheaper, and it reduces the excess case volume a bit. Some folks get concerned about a carbon ring in front of the shorter .38 case. I often shoot 200-300 rounds per range session, and I shoot frequently. I have never had an issue with a carbon ring. However, I also clean my revolvers and their chambers with powder solvent and a bronze brush after each range session.
I suspect that if you shot .38 Special extensively in a .357 Magnum AND never cleaned it, over time, carbon could start to both get hard and build up over time. But then it woudl just need more intensive cleaning to remove.
27 Man
Member
I have shot and reloaded.38 Special and .357 Mag since the early ‘70s. Bullseye, Unique and 2400 have covered all my needs.
STORMINORMAN
Member
Almost six years ago I tested out the new CFE Pistol powder in my revolver to see what it could do.
Here is a picture of some of my test loads for "MY" weapon.
Please work up to the full loads, if you feel the need.
Here is a picture of some of my test loads for "MY" weapon.
Please work up to the full loads, if you feel the need.
