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  #1  
Old 07-18-2020, 10:44 PM
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Default 130gr HST ...... help

I just ordered 200 Federal 130gr JHP HST bullets for reloading.

I like the OAL of 1.18" for this bullet in a 38 case and only have the
148 BBwc lead bullet as a bullet that seats as deep to match the case powder volume and pressures, that I have tested with eight powders.

The 148 is lead and the 130 is copper but they should be close in pressures but
I would like to talk to any one that has shot this 130gr JHP with the deep seating to double check the four starting loads that I have with Bullseye, w231, Green Dot and Unique just to be on the safe side,

Otherwise , I will shoot the loads and post later on, on the results.
Thanks.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 07-19-2020 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 07-19-2020, 02:19 PM
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Why seating so deep? S&W Model 52?
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Old 07-19-2020, 03:00 PM
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My goal is to duplicate the Federal 130gr HST load in my model 640. Iíve been searching the web for any information and found that several tests (Lucky Gunner for one) with factory ammunition from a 2Ē barrel yields about 825 to 850 FPS. Federal lists it at 890 FPS from a 4Ē vented barrel.

The problem is we have no reliable data at all. 130-135 grain information is for normally seated bullets but itís all we have to go on. Seating flush will increase pressure. So will jacketed bullets. Compressed powder can quickly lead to disaster.

All that in mind, I loaded some to test through a chronograph with Alliant BE-86. I started with 5.3 grains with an overall length of 1.18Ē. Thatís well below Alliantís maximum of 6.1 grains for a 130 grain round nose bullet. Five rounds averaged 950 FPS well over my goal. I am going to try a lighter load but I think I may have to go with a faster burn rate powder. The primers looked good and extraction was normal.

Keep me posted on your results and I invite anyone else to add to our knowledge.

To be continued.
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Old 07-19-2020, 06:36 PM
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The HST in the box is loaded as a plus+. It shoots well in my 60-15 and 637. I don't shoot it in my other 60's. I would think loaded to the cannalure, it would duplicate other 38 or +p loads for a jacketed bullet. Seated flush as a HST HS, I would load it as a plus+ just like the factory. A soft load with this bullet might not expand. I would work up loads with 231, Bullseye, and Unique.
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Old 07-19-2020, 07:01 PM
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I will try to load Federal Fac Dup. ammo for my " snub nose
if possible and only go to the "Can" if things don't work out.

Even with the short OAL and the very deep bullet seating there is
plenty of case volume for Bullseye powder and HS-6, if you have any.

It is just a new learning process with the deep seated bullet and
trying to get the powders to get around 831 fps for a J frame snub nose revolver.

I have two family members that think the J frame kicks a lot and if.......
this load can get from 800 to 830fps, it will make shooting a SD load, oh so much sweeter for these lady's.

Yes the 135 GD and 158 FBI are good SD loads if you can handle RECOIL well............
I am just trying to improve the wheel, a little.

I will also be loading my 686 6" to help speed up the full load test and then down load for the J frame if needed.

After ten test loads I should be getting an idea on the pressures and fps that will start forming a pattern.

Later.
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Old 07-19-2020, 08:08 PM
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PS;

The federal load shows a 100% case volume powder.........

I will try to get this but I don't know if the powders I have will do this and I don't think IMR4227 will have enough fps and be clean burning.

I might have to settle for a 90% case volume powder, but we will just have to see what happens, since I will not use Trail Boss with a JHP bullet intended for SD use.
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Old 07-19-2020, 09:27 PM
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Might be easier and just as effective to use .38 wadcutters.
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Old 07-19-2020, 11:04 PM
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I bought some off GB probably a year ago and loaded them up with 5.0 gr of Universal. Seated them flush just because I thought they looked really weird seated any other way. My Chronograph got stolen and the crooks took the case and my record book, but IIRC I was getting right around 1000fps out of a 3" K frame. Shot well, but nothing spectacular in the accuracy department. Was curious if they would keyhole like the old HBWC we used to load backwards. I did not get a keyhole out to 35 yards, but the accuracy fell off drastically after about 25 yards. I was never impressed with them because they would be extremely hard to reload a cylinder even with a speed loader. Did a very unscientific test with water jugs and wet newspaper and penetration and expansion was about the same a Golden Saber +P which was my carry load until I discovered the Lehigh bullets. I know one of the guys who was in on the development of the Lehigh bullets and won't go into all of the things I learned, its all on the web if you want to research it, but I'm convinced that the Lehigh Defense bullet is by far the way to go for a SD Load.
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Old 07-20-2020, 10:43 AM
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I have loaded lead WC bullets and LHP "FBI" bullets as well as LSP bullets, over the years in a treck for a good SD load for a 2" to a 6" 38 special.

Just not a happy camper with what I have seen in the expansion department, though the penetration is there and even a little more than needed.

Like I mentioned I have loaded the "FBI" load as well as the 135 Gold Dot and the 125 & 110 JHP light weight bullet loads but for now I really want to see if this Federal 130 "Micro" barrel bullet is the real deal, as it
was shown on the internet.

It is hard to use lead when you have pictures like these as proof.
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Old 07-20-2020, 01:05 PM
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Are you trying to control pressure/velocity with bullet seating depth?
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Old 07-20-2020, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
Are you trying to control pressure/velocity with bullet seating depth?
Federal has no loading data on this bullet or any other powder company, right now.

You can't control anything without data.

Any of us trying to load this bullet are in the dark and flying by the seat of our pants...................
until we get some numbers down on paper and a pattern starts to emerge.

We will put the puzzle together................
just that we are walking through a mine field right now with the really deep bullet seating and no powders listed right now.

Taking small steps with my J frame and larger ones with the 686 loads, right now.
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Old 07-20-2020, 05:06 PM
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Like Shultz, I know NOTHING... but occurs to me, could you use data from a similar (shorter) caliber that would have a similar case volume? Like 38 S&W, 38 short, or whatever it's called?
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Old 07-20-2020, 05:17 PM
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Has any one heard of any actual self defense use of the Federal 130 gr. HST?
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Old 07-20-2020, 05:18 PM
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Because they have such a long bearing surface, I used 158-g jacketed data for mine, and seated them to the cannelure. Thanks to covid, I haven't been out to shoot anything since FEB. But, I expect to keep all of my fingers after shooting a few of these with 158-g data. Picked mine up from Spectre Supply on GB, and just picked up 500 9-mil FMJ's from them. They're one of the few non-scalpers out there now.
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Old 07-20-2020, 05:42 PM
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Default I used Speer's 130 gr short barrel data

I used Speer's published 130gr gold dot short barrel loads with the bullet loaded to the cannelure and got almost published velocities from my 38-2 (850-870 RANGE). Seated deep, I got 925 fps with the max Power Pistol load and a too hot - I felt - 970 or so with the max AA-5 load. It had no pressure signs but .... I have changed from the 158 gr treasury load to the Power Pistol load for carry in the Bodyguard
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Old 07-20-2020, 05:48 PM
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People load wadcutters all the time. I was told the cannelure was for expansion prurposes. Working up to the claimed factory Federal velocity should result in the expansion shown in the various internet video tests. The bullet measures 0.603", approximately the same as a plated Berrys 148gr HBWC. The hollow base of the Berrys definitely adds volume. The hollow on the Federal wadcutter is in the front. I don't have any regular lead wadcutters to compare it to...

P.S. If someone would please be so kind as to measure the length of a standard lead 148gr wadcutter it might shed some further light on the subject of available (& comparable) case volume...?

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 07-21-2020 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Speling...? & a P.S.
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Old 07-20-2020, 07:37 PM
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Just a note here on BE86. I've been working with it a bit and it seems to have a burn rate just a smidgen faster than Unique. At least in .357 magnum, 9 mm & .45 ACP. .38 Spl loads seem a wee bit different, but that might be the cases I'm using in testing. Or the 125 gr Sierra JHP I've been working with.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:13 PM
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There is a lot of difference from a 135gr Gold Dot seat at a OAL of 1.45"where a full load of Unique powder flops around in the case.....

than this deep seated 130gr HST that has the Unique powder being a COMPRESSED LOAD !!

You don't even want to know how much Bullseye will fit into this case that
might come out to a 158% loading !!

This is a brand New Ball Game for all that enter the stadium.

Cuda, wuda, suda, ain't going to work with this bullet !!

on BE-86 powder;
I don't know if it is faster than Unique powder but.............
in a 9mm case with a big 147gr bullet you can get a lot more of this smaller grained powder into the case and come up with a LOT MORE fps.

In the .357 it is kin to w231 with the 125gr JHP and accurate.

Stay safe.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 07-20-2020 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:29 PM
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I have actually made up loads in 357Magnum seated flush 1150fps chronographed and shot into ballistics gel. Even at that speed they still held together but a bit of over penetration at 19-23inches for 5shots.
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Old 07-20-2020, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.revolverguy View Post
I have actually made up loads in 357Magnum seated flush 1150fps chronographed and shot into ballistics gel. Even at that speed they still held together but a bit of over penetration at 19-23inches for 5shots.
Hay;
that load works out PERFECT.........................
for the New York winter, heavy coat SD load.

Was that a standard 4" revolver ?

Nice to know it will reach 23" for the "Big Boys", since I wear a 42".

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 07-20-2020 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 07-20-2020, 09:30 PM
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19-23 inches because it was tested in 4inch and 6inch revolver. This was very hard can't find any wadcutter data for 357Magnum. But I was able to get from Federal that they would hold together up to about 1180fps.
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Old 07-20-2020, 11:17 PM
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Good info there! Thanks Mr Revolverguy
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Federal has no loading data on this bullet or any other powder company, right now.

You can't control anything without data.

Any of us trying to load this bullet are in the dark and flying by the seat of our pants...................
until we get some numbers down on paper and a pattern starts to emerge.

We will put the puzzle together................
just that we are walking through a mine field right now with the really deep bullet seating and no powders listed right now.

Taking small steps with my J frame and larger ones with the 686 loads, right now.
Every revolver bullet I've loaded, since 1969, I have seated bullets to the crimp groove or cannalure and went from there. 99% of the time I stayed there (5 revolver cartridges loaded in 6 revolvers, tens of thousands of rounds.). I just wondered why would anyone start a load work up with the bullets seated way deeper than the bullet is designed to be seated...
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Old 07-21-2020, 12:55 PM
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This is not a cannelure on these freedom pills. These are truly wad cutters and meant for 38spl and 38spl+p. That ring is there to prevent jacket lead seperation.
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:10 PM
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Lightbulb As he says...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.revolverguy View Post
This is not a cannelure on these freedom pills. These are truly wad cutters and meant for 38spl and 38spl+p. That ring is there to prevent jacket lead seperation.
This is designed by Federal to be loaded as a wadcutter. Not saying they CAN'T be loaded long: but, why...?

Cheers!

P.S. Will someone PLEASE measure the length of a standard lead 148gr wadcutter so it can be compared with the 0.603" measurement on this Federal bullet?

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 07-22-2020 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Spelin...?
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:22 PM
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.591 cast wadcutter, federal hst .605

FYI I did load my 357magnum loads long. I kept seating deeper and deeper until they would chamber in the cylinder.

In my 38spl +p load with HS-6 they are loaded flush.
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.revolverguy View Post
.591 cast wadcutter, federal hst .605

FYI I did load my 357magnum loads long. I kept seating deeper and deeper until they would chamber in the cylinder.

In my 38spl +p load with HS-6 they are loaded flush.
I would imagine that 0.014" is not going to pose a significant reduction in case volume with a bullet that weighs 18gr less to boot...?

Thanks & Cheers!
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:49 PM
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Lightbulb Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.revolverguy View Post
.591 cast wadcutter, federal hst .605

FYI I did load my 357magnum loads long. I kept seating deeper and deeper until they would chamber in the cylinder.

In my 38spl +p load with HS-6 they are loaded flush.
I would imagine that 0.014" difference would not result in a significant reduction in case volume with a bullet that weighs 18gr less to boot...?

Thanks & Cheers!

P.S. How did this duplicate (well, almost) happen?

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 07-21-2020 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Duh! A duplicate: How did THAT happen?
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Old 07-21-2020, 01:52 PM
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A 148gr HBwc from Speer is around .63" +/- in length.....
but it has a hollow base.

A 148 BBwc that I use, has a length of .57"......
but if you use the 1st crimp grove, the OAL is 1.25" and it will seat .47".
If you use a OAL of 1.16" this bullet will seat +/- .57"........
the same as the Federal 130 HST set at a OAL of 1.18"

So you can use the 148 BBwc to get an idea of what the 130 JHP will do in the recoil department and fps............
if you want to save the HST bullets until you are ready to get down to brass tacks?

I will testing in a few days............
just have to wait for the two fires in the area to pass or burn out and have the air clean up a little.

Later.
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Old 07-21-2020, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
This is designed by Federal to be loaded as a wadcutter. Not saying they CAN'T be loaded long: but, why...?

Fheers!

P.S. Will someone PLEASE measure the length of a standard lead 148gr wadcutter so it can be compared with the 0.603" measurement on this Federal bullet?
Just to clear things up.......................

This Federal 130gr HST that came out in May of 2017..............
is a "Micro" loading designed for a 38 "Short barrel" less than 3"............
with enough fps to still expand in a snub nose and meet a "+P loading" per Federal's engineer's.

The deep seating is done to improve ES and ignition as well as performance.

You don't have to follow Federals way of loading this style of bullet.................
just that I like do what the "Big Guys" do when they put ammo out on the market place, since there is generally a good reason and testing behind it's development.

Stay safe.

Edit;
picture of bullet stick out for the 130gr HST micro......
which depends on the case total length !!

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 07-24-2020 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:16 PM
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From the range that is.

Firearm: S&W model 640 Pro with 2 1/8Ē barrel

Components:
Federal 38 special brass cases
CCI 500 small pistol primers
130 grain HST bullets
1.18Ē overall length
Alliant BE-86 powder:

4.6 grains, 825fps, SD 12
4.8 grains, 861fps, SD 6
5.0 grains, 871fps, SD 12
5.3 grains, 950fps, SD 32

Hodgdon Titegroup:

3.2 grains, 727fps, SD 22
3.4 grains, 758fps, SD 9
3.6 grains, 809fps, SD 11

No pressure signs. All cases extracted ok & fired primers were normal. It looks to me that about 4.7 grains of BE-86 will pretty much duplicate the Federal load.
The Titegroup loads needs to be bumped up a little. Next time Iíll try 3.8 & 4.0 grains.
I did not shoot for accuracy but all the bullets impacted 4-6Ē low at 25 yards.

Hope this helps you!
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Old 07-22-2020, 11:05 AM
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Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
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Thank you for the first data with this bullet that has been in the dark.

It is always nice to have a little data to add to our log books, when there in none or very little, out there.

I am also loading, to see how much Recoil difference there if from the 130 "Micro"
than the 135 Gold Dot, that will come from my J frame, that I shoot.

Again, thanks for getting the ball rolling.

As a note;
with my mixed brass cases running from 1.14 to 1.15" in length
my first loads were set at a OAL of 1.22" for my first try.
When I put my "Good Glasses" on, I saw where a 1.18" oal might be factory setting, with a 1.15" case.

I might also have to "mike" my future cases for a better crimp at or after the bullets cylinder/Ogive spot..........
or heavens to bid, finally have to trim a .38 special case !! ??

Stay safe.

As for fps out of short barrels, here are some figures I found on
shooters trying the 130 HST factory ammo out in their weapons.
S&W642............ 804 fps
Kimber 2" ......... 824
S&W342 ........... 782 **
S&W638 ........... 831

800fps minimum ** to insure 100% bullet expansion.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 07-27-2020 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 07-22-2020, 09:30 PM
SquarePizza SquarePizza is offline
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I stayed with the speer GD as a model for all of the federal HSTs that I have been shooting. Been shooting these for almost a year and enjoy them.

Based past experiments I know that reducing case capacity can increase pressure that results in higher MV and lower ES. However, on defensive loads I never worried about ES. My precision rifles sure, but a defensive load that will see a make of 25 yards, not so much.
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