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  #1  
Old 08-31-2020, 04:16 PM
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Default DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them?

First let me say I am NOT a reloader, just never found the time or money and now retired can find the time...but just not the desire to get into it properly, and my opinion is that a half-baked entry into reloading could spell disaster for me and/or my firearms.

With the above said I'll also state that I have never shot anybody's reloads in my guns. I always use factory ammo and have had years of fun so not changing now.

I've got literally thousands of rounds stashed that will last me years so I'm not worried over the shortage either.

Anyway.......to the questions, geared towards those of you that DO reload, and I am sure you do it very religiously because your safety depends on it.

1. With a Model 14 purchase years ago the sale came from a non-gun person trying to dispose of his dad's stuff. Along with the gun came 2 boxes of Remington ammo. One box was 95 grain, Semi-jacketed, hollow point. This box was given to another ammo collector on this forum years ago simply because of the labelling on the other box...I didn't trust it to be as the factory box said.

The box I still have has a "reloaders sticker" stuck on one of the end flaps and it says: "5.1 grains Bullseye, CCI SP primer, 1400 fps". The factory box end flap reads 158 gr LRN.

So my basic question 1 is does this claimed velocity match up to anything you guys see or have ever loaded for? ALL of my stash of factory ammo in 38 (Remington UMC, American Eagle, Fiocchi, Winchester, Magtech, PMC Bronze, etc.) is at 800, 810 and these are mostly 130, 132 gr. FMJ, or 158 gr. FMC-F at 755 fps.

Question 2; What to do with this stuff? I don't want to just dump questionable loaded rounds on anyone. i.e. if I won't shoot it....I don't think anyone else should either, which leads to question 3: Is it even safe in your expert opinion to shoot at the listed charge (don't know how the reloader came up with 1400 fps).

I hate to invest in a bullet puller just to dump the powder and dump the empty brass in the range bucket my next trip but is that's the only safe way....I'll probably go that way.

Sorry for the long epistle but this box of 50, dated 1974, sits in my stash of 38 and I really don't want sons or daughters grabbing it by mistake some day, so I'm going to dispose of it some way.

P.S. If there had been 1 round missing from the box I would have surmised maybe the guy (or gal) blew up their 38 revolver, and that is why the Model 14 was unfired and pristine but alas all 5o look alike.

Thanks in advance from you expert reloaders to a non-reloader.
Any of you in or around central Virginia can have this box for free if you want to come get it. The box of 95 grain that I sent to another collector cost $10.98 for UPS but that was when I worked at a company that had twice daily UPS pickups and I could just reimburse the company.
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:24 PM
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The box I still have has a "reloaders sticker" stuck on one of the end flaps and it says: "5.1 grains Bullseye, CCI SP primer, 1400 fps". The factory box end flap reads 158 gr LRN.


that bullet with 5.1grs of Bullseye powder is data for a .........
.357 Magnum weapon.

Have fun.
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:35 PM
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I'm not an expert but I've done a lot of 38 Special Bullseye/158g LSWC, usually around 2.8 grains. 5.1 sounds like a lot more.

If you're not trying to save components, maybe you could just use a visegrips or pliers to pull the bullet out of the case?
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:42 PM
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That amount of Bullseye in a .38 special case with a 158 grain jacketed bullet is about 900fps.
I wouldn't trust anything about those reloads.
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:42 PM
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Where is the picture of the "reload label"


Just because someone used an original box, they are still "reloads" I have used factory boxes for reloads.


A reload is a reload. If that data is correct, it is a pretty stout load. No way would I uses a 38 +P load someone else loaded with BULLSEYE Very fast powder in a large case. You would have to pull several and weigh the powder. Then it is still a gamble.



Do you feel lucky? Well do ya"

Alliant data for a 38+P 158 gr LSWC bullet max is 3.9 grains!

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
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Old 08-31-2020, 04:59 PM
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Knowing they are probably junk a friend from the range should be able to run them up in a press, grab the bullet with vicegrips and lower the ram, which would pull the bullet. The time might be worth the brass but probably not.
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Old 08-31-2020, 05:10 PM
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I was given a sporterized P17 Enfield chambered in .30 Gibbs with 3 boxes of very old handloads. I did not trust that ammo any farther than I could throw them, so I took the ammo to my local PD and they accepted it for disposal.

Most PD's will do that as a public service for unwanted guns and ammo.
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Old 08-31-2020, 06:37 PM
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Well so far we have a tie. We have a major problem with the disposition of empty powder containers. Now with a box of 50 questionable reloads. I think the guy that couldn’t make up his mind about junking or selling his spent primers is still the winner.,
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:34 PM
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The only safe load with 5.1 grains of Bullseye in a 38 special I can find in a half dozen manuals is in the Lyman #49 with a 90 grain cast bullet at 1168 fps. All the rest of the data I can find says 5.1 grains is either an overload or a dangerous overload. There is no way that I would use these or want to be close to anyone who was going to try them.

Hopefully there is a forum member around Richmond that will help out and break this ammunition down for you. Or you might ask the Hanover sheriff’s department if they could safely dispose of them.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:38 PM
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Being a 38 case in a 38 special box..........

but with a 357 load.......

I would pull the bullets or at least destroy those handloads, so they don't find their way into a 38 special weapon, for everyone's safety !!

Saving the case and primers is an option.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:54 PM
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A reckless person might dispose of the questioned ammo by firing them in a .357 Mag, preferably a Ruger Blackhawk. A careful person would pull the bullets.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:00 PM
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Bury them, chuck them in the lake, or turn them into the police department.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:16 PM
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I'd not shoot them based solely on the fact they're someone else's reloads. I inherited a pistol last year and it came with reloads that a friend of my relative had given to him. I pulled the bullets and tossed the powder.

I know you don't want to pull them. Makes sense. Police department is a good idea. Your local recycling center might take ammo as part of their hazardous waste program.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:19 PM
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Give them to a handloader / bullet caster if you know one. With that small amount of ammo, he could pull the bullets with a kinetic puller and put the bullets in a lead scrap pile for use in making cast bullets. If the brass looked okay and wasn't mixed, he could knock out the primers and use the brass. Everything can be reused, but I'd probably pass on the powder and primers.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:20 PM
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Give them to me. I'll give them to my brother in law and tell him their for his Airweight.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:32 PM
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Depending on the quantity involved, I would simply use my inertia puller to disassemble the cartridges, salvaging the primed cases and bullets. Then reload them with a known propellant charge. If for some reason I couldn't do that, I'd just throw them in the garbage and let them get landfilled.

I recently came into 100 rounds of reloaded .45 Colt cartridges, labeled as to the bullet and charge weights, very well done and probably using new cases, as they looked new. I took two rounds, weighed them (digital scale) pulled the bullets and weighed the powder and bullets. Dead on as to what the label said. No way to determine what the powder was, but the propellant charge would have been safe for even a very fast powder, like Bullseye, etc. (in fact I think the label said that the powder was Bullseye). I then weighed every round, and every one was the same weight within a couple of grains, quick to do with a digital scale, took maybe 10 minutes. When I fired them, no mishaps.

No way I would have thrown away perfectly good primed cases and bullets.

If I didn't have an inertia puller or digital scale, I would have probably just put them in a box for possible future disassembly, along with a note saying not to shoot them.

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Old 08-31-2020, 09:32 PM
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Our local sheriff won’t take ammo any more. Used to... No mo.
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Old 09-01-2020, 07:59 AM
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Well.....................duh..........dumbo me! As Rule3 posted above (#5) "where is the pic of the sticker?"

I spent so much time composing the backstory...I didn't even include the right pics!

OK......so below please see 3 pics of the questionable reloads, or more better term would be "home-brewed" loads, because the box containing them is actually a Remington components box of empty cases, that I assume were then home loaded to the data on the sticker (i.e. the 1400 fps). Please note these are brass cases.

The other 2 photos are of a box of what appear to be Nickle or steel case 158 gr, LRN factory ammo so now I remember why I sequestered all 3 boxes that came with the gun from a guy who was not ever into guns, just wanted to get rid of dad's stuff found in an attic. Again the long tom Model 14 was mint and unfired but no one had a clue where or when this ammo came to be in the same old paper shopping bag as the gun, wooden presnetation case, docs, a Buckheimer holster that never had a gun inserted, and these 3 boxes of ammo. Anyway, the 95 grain stuff was shipped of to a vintage ammo collector on this forum some years ago. Because of the reload sticker seeming way out of line for a 38 Special, I just sequestered both boxes away from my normal ammo stash.

I did get a PM from a Member last night wanting me to ship to him, however the only UPS Terminal hub is not even close to me, so I'm probably going to either pull-em and junk the stuff, or try the local Sherriff to see if they will junk em.

The factory ammo just appears vintage, not reloaded..so old but should work...just to be sure maybe I'll run it through my Model 28-2, or 27-2, or Model 66....what do you all think?

By the way.........thank you to all for the many replies..I really had no clue about hand loads and reloading and even though I hate to see any box of 50 go to waste...it looks like the better solution for safety.
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Old 09-01-2020, 08:05 AM
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Just save them (especially the box) and put them in your gun room or whatever. It's only what? 1 or 2 box of bullets??
You belong to a range, give them to someone?
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Old 09-01-2020, 01:01 PM
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If I were a non reloader, I would find a friend that does reload and ask him to disassemble the reloads and dispose of the components or return them to you for future use. Or I would just put them in a box and store them near your shooting stuff to give to a friend or in case you try reloading, you will have at least some brass. (I have a box labeled "Deal with later" where I put my questionable handloads or mistakes. When I have nothing else to do I'll deal with the cartridge/components in the box, most often just pulling bullets and saving or disposing of components).

I have been reloading for a very long time with very, very few mistakes along the way and fortunately zero dangerous mistakes. The most common mistake is a "typo" when filling out my "load labels". Ninety nine percent of my errors are caught at time of happening, and all are normally caught before boxing up my reloads. Personally I won't shoot other's reloads, not that I don't trust my reloading friends, but just a quirk of mine and I certainly would not shoot old, unknown, possibly mislabeled reloads...
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Old 09-01-2020, 01:14 PM
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Watch the movie "RED" with Bruce Willis,,

At the beginning, he uses a cast iron skillet, some cooking oil,, on the stove, then add some bullets,,,

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Old 09-01-2020, 01:23 PM
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38 +P loads call for a max of 3.9 max of Bullseye. I would not even shoot those in my Ruger Blackhawk. Pull them or dispose of them before someone gets hurt is my opinion. Not worth messing around shooting those the down side is way to severe.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:10 PM
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Educated idiot so stupid stuff. For instance, an engineer I worked for loaded HOT 357 Magnum loads in 38 Special cases & was firing them in a Model 15!!! Don't know if her ever blew the gun or not because he soon got transferred to another plant.
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:46 AM
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DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them? DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them? DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them? DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them? DILEMA SOLVED - old 1974 "dealer reloads" - what to do with them?  
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Default Dilema Solved - gone from my stash

Just to close this thread out and maybe help others who have questionable ammo but don't reload.

A Forum member PM'd me and said ship the rounds to him because he takes care of pulling bullets and taking care of old ammo three times a week in exchange for free range time. He also tipped me that Fed-Ex allows ammo to be shipped via Ground at least domestically (CONUS) so I packed the two boxes up in a plain corrugated cardboard box, placed the ORM-D white-on-blue stickers and trotted off to Fed-Ex. Lo and behold...they were less then UPS price for similar shipment 2 years ago, and their central hub is only a couple miles from my house!

The reason I titled this thread "dealer reloads" in the first post was because when I moved here in 1988, I was told that some (not all) LGS (and there were many in those days) would sell "dealer reloads" in their stores with a range in house for customer use. One colleague of mine told me that those questionable 5.1 grain Bullseye may have been sold to the owner of that pristine Model 14-3. Anyway...I've personally never seen a dealer sell reloads in any of the States I've lived in for the past 55 years of firearms involvement, and I think the liability issue (especially in today's environment of legal beagles lurking around every tree) would outweigh any possible small profit to be gained.

So be it......thanks for all the replies and tips, as more than 1 commented.....inadvertent use of those overloaded 38 Specials could have spelled disaster.
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Old 09-03-2020, 07:54 AM
mikerjf mikerjf is offline
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38Sp 158g at 1400 fps? Label might as well just say BOOM!
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Old 09-03-2020, 10:56 AM
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I might put them in a fire then look for the lead in the cold ashes.

Last edited by max503; 09-03-2020 at 10:57 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-03-2020, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
Just to close this thread out and maybe help others who have questionable ammo but don't reload.

A Forum member PM'd me and said ship the rounds to him because he takes care of pulling bullets and taking care of old ammo three times a week in exchange for free range time. He also tipped me that Fed-Ex allows ammo to be shipped via Ground at least domestically (CONUS) so I packed the two boxes up in a plain corrugated cardboard box, placed the ORM-D white-on-blue stickers and trotted off to Fed-Ex. Lo and behold...they were less then UPS price for similar shipment 2 years ago, and their central hub is only a couple miles from my house!

The reason I titled this thread "dealer reloads" in the first post was because when I moved here in 1988, I was told that some (not all) LGS (and there were many in those days) would sell "dealer reloads" in their stores with a range in house for customer use. One colleague of mine told me that those questionable 5.1 grain Bullseye may have been sold to the owner of that pristine Model 14-3. Anyway...I've personally never seen a dealer sell reloads in any of the States I've lived in for the past 55 years of firearms involvement, and I think the liability issue (especially in today's environment of legal beagles lurking around every tree) would outweigh any possible small profit to be gained.

So be it......thanks for all the replies and tips, as more than 1 commented.....inadvertent use of those overloaded 38 Specials could have spelled disaster.
At least four dealers in Northern Ma would sell reloaded ammunition. Thats where I would get my reloads for range use.
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Old 09-04-2020, 05:10 PM
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Default Not Sure They Are Handloads

I can't say for certain because the pictures are not great and only show one side... BUT... from looking at the one cartridge in the photo I don't think that is a re-load. Here's why:

1. The cannalure in the case body is not flattened. A +P round will almost certainly flatten the cannalure a lot...

2. The case does not show any die marks on the case body... I have never seen a die that does not leave sizing marks on the case.

3. The bullet sure looks factory to me.

It may be there are re-loads mixed in the box... but a check of the case heads should tell if therer are.

If you can post some clear photos of more than one cartridge it would help answering the question.

FWIW

Chuck


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
First let me say I am NOT a reloader, just never found the time or money and now retired can find the time...but just not the desire to get into it properly, and my opinion is that a half-baked entry into reloading could spell disaster for me and/or my firearms.

With the above said I'll also state that I have never shot anybody's reloads in my guns. I always use factory ammo and have had years of fun so not changing now.

I've got literally thousands of rounds stashed that will last me years so I'm not worried over the shortage either.

Anyway.......to the questions, geared towards those of you that DO reload, and I am sure you do it very religiously because your safety depends on it.

1. With a Model 14 purchase years ago the sale came from a non-gun person trying to dispose of his dad's stuff. Along with the gun came 2 boxes of Remington ammo. One box was 95 grain, Semi-jacketed, hollow point. This box was given to another ammo collector on this forum years ago simply because of the labelling on the other box...I didn't trust it to be as the factory box said.

The box I still have has a "reloaders sticker" stuck on one of the end flaps and it says: "5.1 grains Bullseye, CCI SP primer, 1400 fps". The factory box end flap reads 158 gr LRN.

So my basic question 1 is does this claimed velocity match up to anything you guys see or have ever loaded for? ALL of my stash of factory ammo in 38 (Remington UMC, American Eagle, Fiocchi, Winchester, Magtech, PMC Bronze, etc.) is at 800, 810 and these are mostly 130, 132 gr. FMJ, or 158 gr. FMC-F at 755 fps.

Question 2; What to do with this stuff? I don't want to just dump questionable loaded rounds on anyone. i.e. if I won't shoot it....I don't think anyone else should either, which leads to question 3: Is it even safe in your expert opinion to shoot at the listed charge (don't know how the reloader came up with 1400 fps).

I hate to invest in a bullet puller just to dump the powder and dump the empty brass in the range bucket my next trip but is that's the only safe way....I'll probably go that way.

Sorry for the long epistle but this box of 50, dated 1974, sits in my stash of 38 and I really don't want sons or daughters grabbing it by mistake some day, so I'm going to dispose of it some way.

P.S. If there had been 1 round missing from the box I would have surmised maybe the guy (or gal) blew up their 38 revolver, and that is why the Model 14 was unfired and pristine but alas all 5o look alike.

Thanks in advance from you expert reloaders to a non-reloader.
Any of you in or around central Virginia can have this box for free if you want to come get it. The box of 95 grain that I sent to another collector cost $10.98 for UPS but that was when I worked at a company that had twice daily UPS pickups and I could just reimburse the company.
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Old 09-04-2020, 05:39 PM
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I don't think there is such a thing as dealer reloads. Every gun shop I know sells reloads taken in with guns will sell them as components. That said our LGS and gunshows sell re-manufactured ammo. I think Black hills and Hornaday started out that way, using once fired brass to manufacture their ammo,
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2020, 12:08 PM
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Thumbs up The "Load Answer" actual data

The green Remington "factory" ammo box was loaded with 3.5 ± 0.2 grains of powder (5 rounds checked). Each individual cartridge weighed 229.3 ± 0.6 grains. My conclusion is that those rounds can be fired in any 357 Magnum revolver safely.

The red Remington "Empty Cases" box was loaded with 3.4 ± 0.1 grains of powder (not 5.1 gr on reloader's label). Each individual cartridge weighed 230.1 ± 0.8 grains. My conclusion is that those rounds can be fired in any 357 Magnum revolver safely.

The indoor range that I work at has loaded and sold over 200K of handgun ammunition since mid-March for range use only. There are no "Out the door" ammo sales. The inventory of powder and large primers is sufficient. Small pistol primers are adequate if the next 1 million primer shipment arrives by early to mid-September as forecasted.

Normal frantic reloading activities will now resume for 9 MM and 38 Spl.

EDIT: These loads would be safe to shoot in a 38 Spl revolver. But I would rather shoot them in a heavier L-frame than a lighter K-frame with the 158 grain bullets. My preferred load for K-frames is 148 grain wadcutters and 2.8 to 3.0 grains of powder.
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  #31  
Old 09-06-2020, 08:27 AM
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Default Thanks Bob (Engineer1911) for the facts of this old ammo

Now I am glad I sent this ammo off to you rather than just "test my luck" by running those green box "factory" rounds through one of my older 38's (Model 10, 14, 36, 60, 637, or a 1942 Victory).

As I said previously, the man I got the Model 14-3 from never even knew the revolver existed in his Dad's stuff. The father had died long ago, mother too, son inheirited the house and everything in it, and years later when cleaning out the attic found a paper shopping bag containing the gun, an unused Buckheimer holster, a wooden presentation case, and the ammo..now sent to you and you found it OK for 357 Magnum use.

The man didn't know how his father got the gun, whether gift from someone, bought it,???? or even when. The guns serial number turned out to be 1974 so the ammo reloads, dated July 1974 seemed to fit but the 1400 fps was way off anybody I know's chart. I did think the green box appeared factory so I have been tempted time to time to send some of those "factory" rounds downrange from one of my 38"s.

Glad I didn't.....Had I known what you found out I probably would have run them through either my Model 27-2, Model 28 or maybe the Model 66.

Thanks for the investigation and posting the results....just goes to show: Don't trust any reloads except your own!
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Old 09-06-2020, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model520Fan View Post
A reckless person might dispose of the questioned ammo by firing them in a .357 Mag, preferably a Ruger Blackhawk. A careful person would pull the bullets.
I agree. Due to a scale error and a novice loader loading the powder I have fired 7.5 gr Bullseye in 38 case with 158 SWC. Melting the bullets, split cases, stuck cases, we ended up pulling down about 990 rounds. They were fired in S&W 19 back in 1986. We got lucky!! Be Safe,
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