Ok I'm still studying my reload manuals, so maybe there is an official answer for this. I've dropped and measured over 3 dozen powder charges. I'm aiming for 6.9 grains, which is the lightest end of the load data. After some adjustments, I got a 10 charge average of 6.91gr with the lowest being 6.81 and the highest being 7.02gr. Is there such thing as an acceptable amount of deviation?

Of course, I'm not talking match grade. I'm talking consistent results at the range that matches or exceeds factory range ammo.

40 S& W, BTW

You don't say what powder or measure you're using. Some powders meter consistently, some don't and some measures are better than others.

1/10 is usually acceptable for general purpose ammo unless you're way out at the bleeding edge. Then you're in weigh every charge territory.

For reference, my ancient RCBS UniFlow gets a lot closer then a tenth with Accurate AA series powders. Blue Dot will fluctuate a tenth or even a little more.

For me, part of consistency is keeping the powder level in the measure up. I'll fill it, run it down maybe 1/3 and fill it again.

You're doing it right, taking time to test your setup.

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Freedom Is Not A "Loophole"

Your results will improve the more drops you make as your technique improves. You will get into a rhythm, tap at bottom, tap at top and you will see your results improve. I believe the common accepted variance, depending on powder is around .1 of a grain. Most scales will have that amount of variance also. That's why you tread carefully as you approach top loads until you have more experience.

As mentioned above, more info on powder and what measure you're using would help. Normal accepted variation of .1 (1/10th) grain for most powders. When I use Bullseye or TiteGroup I seldom see any variation from charge to charge. With Red Dot I will see .1 variation plus or minus.
Consistency is key when operating your powder measure, also make sure the powder level is kept at least 1/2 to 2/3 full in reservoir. So, if your target load is 6.9 grs; 6.8 - 7.0 would be an acceptable range. IMO :-)

I'm using a Lee Perfect Powder and Hodgdon Longshot. I was testing with just a minimum amount of powder. Tomorrow I'll fill the bottle and check again.

What trickler would you guys recommend?

When I first start, I find the measure is more consistent if I throw about ten "practice" charges and tap the hopper itself between throws. I don't load any of the throws, but dump them back in the hopper. If your hopper is a tall one, a baffle which keeps the weight of the tall column of powder off the cylinder helps too.
I'm with the other guys - a consistent +/- 0.1 grains is good enough, unless you're near the upper limit of safe charge or maybe benchrest, which I've never done. There are so many other variables; e.g., neck tension, crimp, case capacity, barrel heat, leading - that a tenth grain is pretty much moot for most shooting. Do watch out for a slow upward creep - I weigh one every ten to twenty throws to be sure my measure is stable. Historical experience with your measure and powder type will let you adjust that frequency as needed.

What are you using to measure 1/100 of a grain? 1/10gr is plenty accurate & no discernible diff can be seen in just 1/10gr with most powders & calibers. Even on max loads or bench rest, internal cae capacities can vary 3-4gr.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

One way to reduce any disparity in your charges is to maintain two or three powder measures. While it is initially expensive, if you've loaded for any length of time, you seem to accumulate them and good quality measures seem to last for a lifetime.

So for most revolver and pistol rounds (up to 12 to 14 grains): An old Redding with a small powder chamber. Even Unique measures well with this set up.

Mid size rifle (up to 35 some grains): An RCBS match rifle measure with a mid size chamber.

Larger rifle (up to magnums) an old Redding with the large rifle drum.

My Dillon loaders have both a pistol measure and a rifle measure to conform to what I'm loading on the press.

Using an appropriate measure you can measure very uniform charges of even the most recalcitrant powders like Unique, Blue Dot, SR 4759, etc.

As noted in the post above, you are probably better off weighing your cases and tossing the heaviest and the lightest ones out if you are shooting a very accurate rifle. While not necessary for standard loads, if you are a long range match shooter, it is more important than a slight variation in your powder charges.

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Keep your powder dry.

With a good powder measure, good technique, and perhaps a spherical powder IME you can expect most throws (80-90%) to vary +/-0.06gr from target . . . or from your average over a large number of throws. That's my experience using a Hornady measure, powders like H335 and W231/HP38.

Your extreme spread for 36 throws was 0.21gr, or for practical purposes +/-0.1gr. But you did not say how many charges were at the extremes. If only 2 were extreme, and all the rest were +/-0.06gr from your average, that would be very much in line with results I've seen. And that assumes that your scale is capable of repeatable measurements precise enough to tell you the truth.

Longshot is an irregularly shaped, flattened ball powder that I have no experience with. I would GUESS that results throwing that powder would not be as good as a with a pure spherical powder.

I've used a Lee Perfect measure when it was part or the AutoTrickler/AutoThrow attachment for the A&D FX120i, a high-quality scale. While most people would automatically assume the powder measure isn't very good simply because it's a "Lee", I didn't find anything really wrong with it except for occasional leaking. But I never measured its precision.

So you may not be too far away from "not bad". A powder change may tighten you up a little. And it's not impossible that a higher quality measure (Hornady and RCBS measures are pretty much identical) might help.

But you should look at what your target tells you when shooting from a rest. Using handguns with their short barrels and short range use, the powder variance may not make a visible difference.

To give you an idea of what it would take to get +/-0.02gr results . . . the price tag is close to $1,000. Many folks think that's crazy even for rifle reloading, and would say it's like using a 50 cal on chipmunks for handgun reloading.

Most scales are not as accurate as your measurements. The average warrantee is +/- 2/10ths grain. I have 7 scales I use certified check weights to verify their accuracy.

I have a 30 year old Hornady scale that for some odd reason is well within a 1/40th of a grain. (1/4 of 1/10) When weighing long range rounds (308 Win., 300 Win. Mag., & 338 Lapua) I weigh every charge of extruded powder. I can see the that the powder granules are different sizes. Substituting larger or smaller granules can tune a charge as accurate as your instruments can measure! But the case, primer, and bullet all have a plus or minus. You can load 10 identical rounds (within you scale's tolerances) and the gun still may not shoot well! It could be you, it could be the gun, but very commonly some components don't like each other! (substitutes can make a huge difference!)

They only way to know what will happen with a new load combination is to take it to the range and shoot it. Your most accurate load to date is the standard you try to beat.

For rifles: different lot numbers of powder can change how accurate your gun shoots, but it is a small percent! (When IMR 8208XBR came out, the first and third batches of that powder were great, batch #2, not so much!) When starting out, I recommend you stay with time proven loads (Just because it is safe to shoot does not mean it will shoot well!) I went through 6 different powders before I found a good powder for 1000 yard 338 Lapua Mag! (ended up using H-1000! .25 MOA @ 1000 yards!: that is 2.5 inches!) If I miss, it's me! not the gun or ammo!) All the powders I tried were highly recommended, by powder companies and magazine writers! 2 fellow shooters helped out with their pet loads.

For revolvers: the alloy of the cast bullet or the alloy of the jacket will make a big difference. Also when switching from lead to jacketed or switching back; get the gun's riffling completely free of the other metal!

Ivan

Your measure delivers a volume of powder.

Expecting the weight of the same volume to be exactly the same is expecting a lot.

The variations of shape and density of each particle can cause slight deviations in weight.

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Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

For tricky powders, Bluedot, Unique, Trailboss, etc, I’m in the habit of tapping the side of the throw each time prior to actuating the lever. I’ll also try to keep the powder volume at a similar level in the hopper. In my RCBS it does help.

I would suggest that you google Capability Study, 6 Sigma, and Standard Deviation. Dispensing powder is actually a Manufacturing Process that is quite easy to apply Statistics to. I have done capability studies on every single powder that I load with and knowing the Standard Deviation for each powder allows me to choose the powder and method for each application based on what I desire for that load. For example, Unique has a SD of 0.17 grains and using 6 Sigma this means the range of thrown charges will be +/- 3 Sigma (or +/- 3 times the SD). Since this means the deviation will be just a tick over +/- 1/2 grain I limit use for this powder to my 20 guage shotgun ammo because 1/2 grain in a 15 grain charge really isn't significant and in a 5 grain handgun charge it is significant.

I have been measuring with the balance and a small digital. The digital and balance are spot on with each other to the 1/10. Of course the 1/100 is an estimate on the balance. I grew up on vernier calipers, so I read the scale similarly.

You need to work on Consistency , consistent movements , forces , how the handle is operated , how hard the handle bumps the top and bottom stroke and most important ...is to keep the powder level at least 1/2 full ....put a mark on the hopper at halfway... when the powder level gets there , refill it ...
this helps greatly with consistent dropped weights .
Right now your way is giving you 0.21 grs. variances ....you want to get that down to 0.10 grs. variances between 10 charges.
When I got my first measure I just sat down and worked on my technique to get a perfectly consistent operation of the handle , the same movements and forces every time . That along with a minimum 1/2 full reservoir got me to 0.10 gr.
No magic about it , just develop a consistency of operation and practice .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

With Bullseye +/- .1 gr works well. Time spent trying to get more precise than that is better spent on sorting cases and bullets.

One observation I've made - as a reloading session goes on, the powder tends to settle in the hopper and the weight of thrown charges tends to creep up a bit. It may be throwing .2 or so heavier than it was at the start. I'm wondering if a baffle in the hopper would help.

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Common sense isn't so common.

I have long subscribed to the concept of averaging the weight of 10 charges. Getting identical weights from each throw of a powder measure is nearly impossible due to the measure throwing a specific volume, not a specific weight of powder. If your target is 6.9 grains and your 10 charge average is 6.91, then you have arrived at 6.9 grains. A variation from charge to charge of +/-0.05 grains will not be noticeable unless maybe to a benchrest rifle shooter.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Nothing contributes to powder measure shot to shot consistency as much as a powder baffle.
NOTHING!
I have a RCBS standard measure and two Lees (1 disk, 1 drum).
With a baffle, they are all dead on for consistency.

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I'm with her

I just goy back from a trip from Utah, where some of the guys are cerious about their shooting games.

You can put 2K out to get an elec. powder dumper and top it of with a trickler that gets to .004 for your loads past 1,000 yards.

However, most of us are happy with our under $200 scales, for our style of shooting.

FORGET the "average" method of 10 drops
It is meaningless. An average is just that an average. What if one drop was 6 and then one was 7 etc. The average is not what is in each case.The average would be 6.5 but one of those (6) would be an undercharge. If you do an average of 100 or 1,00 then you could have several that are way (weigh) off.


As mentioned weighing out to 1/100th of grain is also meaningless

Especially with a SLOW powder like Long shot. 6.9 or 7 or 7.1 you will not know the difference.

Don't get hung up on stats, SD and all that stuff.

Drop a powder charge weigh it, pour into a case, repeat untill you know what is going on. LOOK into each case to ensure the charge is in there.


Before someone with no actual experience(with it) whines about the LPPM. It is actually VERY accurate and doesn't leak(I tested it long ago with many powders and recorded ever drop. With stick powders it was better than my RCBS. Uniflow.

Summing up the good advice you have received above......A really good powder measure isn't cheap but is a must. Also, all of them must have a baffle installed. Some powders measure better than others. Your operating technique must be as exactly the same every time as much as you can master. Then the point I want to make......a slight variation in powder weight from cartridge to cartridge has about the least affect on accuracy of all the myriad of variables in putting a batch of reloads together. Caution must be observed when using very fast burning powders in small cases. Also, when loading rifle cartridges to the very max. The best accuracy for any loading is always obtained some where below maximum load. There are always exceptions to every generalization. You need to read everything you can about reloading. Some of the published books and articles should be read multiple times.

One last bon mot: Reloading is a situation where the Law of Diminishing Returns comes into play quite often and quickly.

A second bon mot I just remembered: Every firearm is different in small ways from any other. The individual firearm is a law unto itself when accuracy is the goal.

Even factory loads differ in volume, +/- a few tenths is not an issue.

Try using a baffle in side the powder reservoir to maintain a constant head over the measuring cylinder. You can make one easily out of cardboard. The best way to get charge consistency.

I have two Lyman 55 measures. I set them by throwing five charges and dividing by five. i.e. I if I want a five grain charge, I set my powder scale at 25 grains, then throw five charges. Adjust the measure until you throw five charges which weighs 25 grains.

In theory you're correct, but how likely is it that a powder measure would be that far off? Especially as you say the LPPM is very accurate.

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Support Fact Based Journalism.

Think of it this way. A +/- 0.1 grain deviation for a 5 grain pistol charge is only +/- 2%. For a typical 40 grain rifle charge, it represents far less than 1% (actually 0.25%).

Can someone post an illustration, picture or link to a baffle?

This 3-minute RCBS video shows a powder baffle, but does not say much about what it does.

The main function of the baffle is to keep the weight above the actual powder flow relatively constant, even as the overall powder level falls. That helps maintain uniform powder density and flow rates.

With the load you mentioned, .1 grain deviation isn't much and won't be a problem. However, if you later start loading a really fast powder in a small caliber such as .25, .32 or .380, your powder charge could be very small. A .1 grain deviation could be a problem. As an example, .25 ACP with a 35gr jacketed bullet and Titegroup starts at 1.5 gr with a 1.7 gr max according to the Hodgdon web site. Size matters.

As stated above a baffle & consistent technique helps a good bit . Ball powders are the most consistent when you're dispensing by volume , next would be short grained extruded like Vihtavouri powders , long grain extruded & larger flake powders are the hardest to get consistent drops with . Best to set measure to throw just short of your desired weight & finish off with a trickler . Like scales a good powder dispenser aint cheap . Consider that benchrest rifle shooters use thrown charges & you won't find their loads in a manual either , some are eyebrow raising . Most use Harrell powder measures that are extremely precise with selected propellants , but they are costly .

Estimates? You have a scale, it gives a weight, there is no estimate. To get 1/100th grain, you would have to tjrow 100 charges & then avg them. Again, even if you had a scale that accuraye, means nothing. Internal case volum varies as much as 3-4gr deoensing on caliber.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I ran some throws using as many of the tips as I could. I made a baffle out of cardboard similar to the one in the RCBS video (Thanks Twoboxer - is that your P51?) I practice consistent throws, zeroed my scales, added powder to 3/4 full. The first run produced throws that average 7.3. (7.27 on the digital) Max was 7.36 by the digital, minimum was 7.21. Most were 7.25 to 7.28. Bottom line with the baffle is that it was more consistent than yesterday.

Without the baffle with all other things equal, the throws were higher, averaging 7.60. Most were consistently 7.56 to 7.62.

My take away was a loaded bottle without baffle can result in consistently heavier loads - 3 grains heavier in this case. Both seem acceptable consistent with a full hopper but I would expect the non baffled to start out heavier and creep toward lighter as the level in the hopper decreased. I would expect the baffle to dampen this unless the powder level ran below the baffle.

Another thing I paid attention to this time was the uniformity of the powder. I would assume the smaller flakes could settle causing denser loads.

When my primed brass gets here, I'll be watching the powder and being very picky on the first few hundred until I can be comfortable. Maybe then I reduce to measuring every 10th.

Back in the good old days, before we had baffles, we just refilled the powder hopper more often, as in when the level dropped to half full, add powder. This resulted in a fairly consistent downward pressure on the powder at the bottom of the hopper. The baffle accomplishes the same thing, you just don't have to keep the volume of powder in the hopper as consistent.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

You do not NEED one. Just keep the powder measure (any brand) at least 3/4 full.


The powder measure is just a "hole" it fills if you have a baffle or not.


More depends on the Powder type. Long Shot meter very well as is it "fine" other flake powder like Unique not as well.

Who said anything about a *powder* trickler? There's a lot of old men out there

Among this group I'm a youngster, being a trickler has already taken on a new meaning!

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Real Eyes Realize Real Lies

Back in the old days, we used dippers, and who knows how off they were, and we survived.

I've found it easier to set my target throw weight by 1) adjusting the throw meter, 2) throwing 2-3 charges and returning the powder to the measure, 3) throwing 10 charges into a tared pan, and 4) looking for (eg) 69gr on my digital scale. Rinse, repeat. Otherwise, I find myself chasing the variation instead of the target. Just a thought, YMMV.

Again, what scale are you using that measures 1/100 gr? 7.25 is 7 & 25/100 gr.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I started with Lee dippers. If used correctly they are as accurate as a powder measure.


A "hole" is a hole
Volume measure is the same with a dipper of a hole in a powder measure.(once that volume is determined by WEIGHING! Dip and use a straight edge over the top, Do not shake or stir.

Fred, I have a small jewelry scale along with the balance scale. I'll be rounding to the tenth when throwing loads.

All you guys have been very helpful in teaching me the degree of accuracy I should strive for on regular reloads! I appreciate it.

Both my digital and beam scales have a precision of 0.1 grains. Actually, with my Redding beam scale I could estimate precision to within 0.05 grains, but there is no point in doing that for reloading purposes. As I earlier said, to determine the average weight of handgun charges thrown by my powder measure, I throw and weigh an aggregate of five charges (but usually 2 or 3 charges for heavier rifle loads).

If anyone needs a balance having a precision greater than 0.1 grain, he'd need to use a chemical lab analytical balance. They will easily achieve a precision of 1 milligram or better. Some are capable of 0.1 milligram (0.0001 gram) precision. (1 gram=15.4 grains so 1 milligram=.015 grains)

I got some CFE Pistol today and tested a few throws. This powder measures much more consistently 8.3 occasionally, but must were 8.4. I didn't take the time to adjust from my Longshot volume settings. Just for grins, I tried throws with a full hopper and a 1/4 hopper. It didn't make a noticable difference.

This new guy is beginning to learn more about powder shapes and size and its affect on charges.

Probably the best thing said in this entire thread. If you're not shooting for competition purposes but tend to be a bit anal (like most reloaders are), there is an awful lot of Much Ado About Nothing.

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SWCA #3546
SWHF #711

Unless you are trying to hit a max load I would not worry about it. For a pistol cartridge you are not going to get a big difference in accuracy with a variation like you talked about. If you want to get good with a pistol practice your dry firing and shoot more everything else is not going to make a big difference. Some of the other posters are right, the choice of powder does seem to affect the consistency of the amount dropped from a powder measure. Good luck and happy shooting.

Yes, I tend to be anal about little things like this, until I'm satisfied in my own mind. Then I am good with multiple throws with occasional checks. I am good with a .1 deviation. I am glad to learn more about what can affect this - powder types, amount of powder in hopper, throwing technique, etc. All good information.

I also tend to consult multiple sources -- books, forums, personal experiences, etc.. This forum seems to have a wealth of seasoned experience and I appreciate that.

In practice, no, none of this will have much effect on my shooting. Most of what I do is paper punching for fun, SD loads for EDC and home defense. My shooting skills are plenty sufficient for that. Mainly, I want to put a few more wrinkles of this brain and have some fun doing it.

Here is what I normally do for my "uber" accurate handloads.

I have an RCBS powder dispenser/baffle with micrometer adjustment added.

I set up my most trusted beam scale for the exact charge weight I desire.

I set up my RCBS powder dispenser to throw just a few tenths under the desired charge weight.

I then throw a charge then weigh it on the beam scale, then top off to an exact charge with a powder trickler.

I have yet to see a digital scale that will show 1/100th a grain's weight. (Not sayin they aren't out there.) Heck most will fluctuate even at 1/10th a grain's weight.

Differences in air pressure/breathing/minute vibrations will show on many digital scales even at 1/10th grain. And then even without environmental influences digital scales tend to fluctuate a tenth or two.

There used to be a big argument between the weight versus volume powder throwing camps with regards to accuracy. There are some really nice (volume) powder dispensers out there and will do quite nicely if you find the powders they tend to throw the most uniformly.

As I tend to use numerous different types of powders it is far easier for me to set my dispenser up to throw short and then top off with a trickler using a very reliable beam scale. No batteries or ac power needed, no fluctuations due to digital scales.

I have even taken my RCBS powder dispenser with micrometer adjustment to the range and used it there for several projects. I usually dial it it to the desired powder charge I and then simply load and fire. Probably not what the 1000yd+ guys would recommend but it's rare I get past 300yds any more.

I may still set out a digital scale while using my RCBS dispenser/beam scale/trickler method just to quickly check the occasional charge to verify nothing has gone severely amiss with the beam scale.

Your mileage may vary.

Not to start an argument on digital accuracy. I do know about weight standards, certified scales and certified calibration weights. I know about RFI, EFI, airflow, humidity, etc., etc. I know a truly accurate digital scale would cost $$$$

I do want you to know I'm not crazy (anymore than the rest of you lead breathing, heavy metal handling folks ) My digital scale does display to the 1/100 grain and it is showing accuracy at least to the 1/10 grain when compared to my balance.

[DISCLAIMER: This is in no way a recommendation to use a digital scale for load validation. An uncertified digital scale can be used as a reference only. Where precise measurements are required, a certified scale with valid proof of calibration must be used. *Paraphrase of ISO 9001:2015 Quality Standards*

Please take this post tongue-in-cheek

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Can I have you do me a huge favor?

Measure out a dead nuts 40gr load using your digital scale that measures to 1/100th a grain. Then remove from the digital scale the pan and powder.............then place it back on again 10 times and tell me how much it does or doesn't deviate from the first measurement each time.

Then, if you don't mind, please repeat the process with just a 5gr powder weight.

I am truly curious as to how repeatable such a scale is...............and if it is truly repeatable then what brand is it and what would one cost?

1 grain = 1/7000th of a pound.

You scale is measuring to a degree of 1/700000th of of a pound. Wow, if it is truly repeatable..........and somewhat affordable.

Usually I have to rely on a beam scale to show very minor deviations (above or below) 1/10th a grain accuracy. I've tried several "affordable" digital scales in the past but always went back to a beam for finer accuracy. Maybe things are changing with regards to digital scales?

Thanks in advance,
Dale

I'll give it a try. My guess, from what I have seen to date (I've had this scale for less that 2 weeks), is that it will be consistent to the tenth and vary plus or minus as much as .05.

I'll forewarn you. The results may be delayed. I should have a mailbox full of primed brass when I get home today. That could distract me

I couldn't think of a better distraction.........short of Kate Upton picking me up for lunch wearing a red dinner dress!

My experience with the few digital (1/10th grain capable) scales I have owned is even after warming up and calibration sometimes they tend to be +/- .1 grain, and sometimes as much as +/- .2gr. My cheapo tends to be just as accurate as the more inexpensive one, go figure......but to be honest I didn't spend a huge amount on the more expensive one.

Please take your time when performing the repeatability test, as I would prefer it to take a while longer and be more accurate, data wise, than to be hurried and less accurate.

If it is truly repeatable to within +/- .05gr then that would be as much as 8 times more accurate than what my digital scales typically give. If not overly expensive then it would be of interest.

What did the paperwork that came with the scale say it's accuracy was in grains? (Assuming it has an accuracy range stated.)

Dale

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