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  #1  
Old 10-16-2020, 08:29 AM
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With the sporadic limited availablity of some calibers of ammunition over the past few years I've been approach several times and asked if I would load a few boxes of ammo. I've came up with a standard 2 part answer

1. I do not have an Ammunition Manufactures License and am not willing to risk fines/jail time.

2. If you would like some reloads you are welcome to use my equipment under my supervision but must supply your own brass, bullets, powder and primers. No takers on this to date.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:20 AM
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I don't have a problem loading for a few select friends but I've made it clear that it can't impact my personal supply of components.
At this time I've got a good supply of components with the exception of a few types of brass which I ask them to supply. Just had one of my friends bring me 2000 once fired .223 in exchange for 250 loaded rounds.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:23 AM
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Oh no, you're an unlicensed ammunition manufacturer but doing it anyway! Hopefully your friends don't turn you in. [/sarcasm] Do these friends have any idea what the laws are?
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:37 AM
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Check your liability coverage. Reloading for anyone other than yourself can end in your bankruptcy!!!!! I have never had any issues with my reloads in my guns, but would not put my reputation on the line and end up losing everything if someone's defective gun blows up. Besides, a responsible shooter should NEVER shoot reloads from anyone other than themselves.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:55 AM
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That all depends. I have a shooting buddy I served in the Army with. We both reload. We have been shooting together, casually, and at various matches for pert near fifty years. We have swapped ammo for one reason or another many times without a second thought.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker View Post
. . . We have swapped ammo for one reason or another many times without a second thought.
That is the problem. I have let people shoot my reloads in my guns only. We have no control how anyone else, friend or not, takes care of their guns. Disassembly for cleaning and forgetting to put it back together correctly or a defect that is not identified. The risk is still there and liability or not, how would you feel if anything went wrong?

My only experience with this was a couple of friends at the range were shooting each other's ammo and one was shooting a Uberti Henry. Well, during the course of speed-shooting at steel, the shooter apparently had a squib load and chambered another round and shot without realizing that there was a bullet lodged in the barrel. The result was a double hit of bullets right on target, but a split barrel. Well, what would you do? The other shooter who reloaded the ammo, ended up paying for a new barrel for his friend's Henry. If anyone has priced a barrel assembly for that model, it costs almost $500, plus gunsmith's fee to install. Fortunately, no injury occurred, but both shooter's no longer share their reloaded ammo!
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefdave View Post
...I do not have an Ammunition Manufactures License and am not willing to risk fines/jail time...
Sounds like a good policy.

When a long time friend and I go shooting weekly, we always shoot each others firearms knowing full well that both contain each others reloads.

That's about as close as I come.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy52 View Post
I don't have a problem loading for a few select friends but I've made it clear that it can't impact my personal supply of components.
At this time I've got a good supply of components with the exception of a few types of brass which I ask them to supply. Just had one of my friends bring me 2000 once fired .223 in exchange for 250 loaded rounds.
You just admitted to the gun world you broke the law! I hope "big bother" isn't reading this? I hope you aren't on facebook or twitter?
jcelect
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:50 AM
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I doubt the BATF would be hard pressed to charge anyone for reloading a few boxes of ammo for a friend for free or even "at cost."

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a) and 923 (a); 27 CFR 478.41]

No profit, personal use - no problem.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:09 AM
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I don't worry about a friend suing me, it's their family I worry about.

Think about some mud or snow in a barrel, rifle opens up and someone loses an eye or worse.

Nothing wrong with your load, but that's not going to matter when someone's out for blood.(Money)

Two fools meet when you load for someone else. The person loading and the person shooting someone's handloads.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:16 AM
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An old military adage about "pole vaulting over mouse turds" comes to mind.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:24 AM
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My reloads get shot in my guns only.

A buddy of mine recently joined me at the range and I haven't shot his Charter Bulldog yet. He has run out of 44 SPL ammo while I have plenty of my own 44 SPL reloads so he said bring some of mine so I could try it. Instead of possibly insulting him I pretended to have just forgotten to bring any 44 SPL. I don't load my 44 SPL too hot but if there is a gun most likely to blow up with 44 SPL it is a cheap lightweight gun like the Bulldog.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:38 AM
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I don't shoot any one else's reloads and I don't reload for anyone else. I've been approached to do so, but I decline as nicely as I can. I used to have a Manufacture FFL years ago. There was never an issue, but the risk was just too high. Back then, you had to have an FFL to buy components or ammo; things have changed since then!! :-)
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
I doubt the BATF would be hard pressed to charge anyone for reloading a few boxes of ammo for a friend for free or even "at cost."

Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a) and 923 (a); 27 CFR 478.41]

No profit, personal use - no problem.
There's the right answer, I do not reload for profit. Much the same if I work on a friends firearm if I'm not in it for the business then I don't require a FFL for gunsmithing.
As far as lability is concerned these are people I've known for many years and that doesn't bother me.
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcelect View Post
You just admitted to the gun world you broke the law! I hope "big bother" isn't reading this? I hope you aren't on facebook or twitter?
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Old 10-16-2020, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammer Jammer View Post
My reloads get shot in my guns only.

A buddy of mine recently joined me at the range and I haven't shot his Charter Bulldog yet. He has run out of 44 SPL ammo while I have plenty of my own 44 SPL reloads so he said bring some of mine so I could try it. Instead of possibly insulting him I pretended to have just forgotten to bring any 44 SPL. I don't load my 44 SPL too hot but if there is a gun most likely to blow up with 44 SPL it is a cheap lightweight gun like the Bulldog.
While the 44 Bulldog is lightweight I'd call it inexpensive rather than cheap. I use one for concealed carry with factory COP ammo. It would be more likely for my !00+ year old hand ejector to fail than the CA. Like you I load 44 Special on the light side.

Last edited by chiefdave; 10-16-2020 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:07 PM
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I too have had people in my gun club ask me to reload for them. They often say "I'll pay you". My stock answer is "No".
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:21 PM
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I do not shoot other's reloads

I don't let other's shoot mine.

There is NO exception ever.
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:58 PM
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I will not reload for anyone else except myself. I do not want the liability of a mistake on my part hurting someone else or their equipment. In the case of family, come over and I'll watch and instruct you on reloading your own ammo. Makes things simple, just the wisdom of KISS.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:29 PM
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Back when I was shooting USPSA, this was in the early 1990's, one of my friends who also shot matches with me wanted me to load ammo for him. I declined based on the liability issue if something bad happened and it turned out to be my reloads. I don't have that sort of liability insurance and I surely do not have a license to manufacture ammo. My reloads are for my use only.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oysterer View Post
I do not shoot other's reloads

I don't let other's shoot mine.

There is NO exception ever.
And I don't have to justify my choices to anyone.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:41 PM
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My son killed his first deer with ammo Iíd loaded.

That was 30 years ago, so I suspect that the statue of limitations has passed and I probably donít have to worry about imminent prosecution for that.

Sure hope they donít find out about the years since! 😀
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:19 PM
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I let my kids or friends shoot my reloads in my guns only.
Sell reloads? Or even give 'em away? NO WAY!
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:22 PM
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You won’t supply a few reloaded rounds to a friend in need?
You think your reloads are great for your gun but will blow up somebody else’s because they haven’t cleaned their gun?
Never use someone else’s reloads, no exception??
You guys sound like a swell bunch of old curmudgeons.

Pole vaulting over mouse turds, indeed.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:36 PM
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I do not sign the bread I give to friends.
How would anyone know?


Oh my.. I thought the title of the thread was re-loafing for friends.
Well then, I'll stop writing my name on the brass as 380s are small.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:38 PM
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I’ve had four people ask me and two hit me up on my offers. I will happily teach you how to handload. Get some bullets, primers, powder, and brass. I will let you use my equipment while I watch over you.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:42 PM
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A friend of mine Was a commercial reloader with the license, insurance (and attitude!)

I ask about his liability insurance, his response was: Every gun's owners manual tells you to "Shoot only new ammo of the correct cartridge AND DO NOT SHOOT RELOADS!", I make a quality reload to industry standards, if you violate the operators instructions, what does that have to do with me?

Is he an asswipe? Yes. Is he wrong? No!

I personally don't trust most gun owners with live ammo! I'm not going to give them ammo to accidentally shoot me with!

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Old 10-16-2020, 03:46 PM
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Pole vaulting over mouse turds, indeed.
I give you the benefit of the doubt: Google 'squib', combine that with very fast shooting in tactical competitions and the combination of the 2 can lead to very bad outcomes for the shooter and bystanders. I take the risk using my 'great' reloads but I don't need to create more risk for others on top of my own. If my reloads weren't great, I wouldn't consider them. I check every case with a light after powder drop and before seating.
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:59 PM
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What some reloaded ammunition. I have a spare press I will loan you and maybe even some dies. I will show you what you need to do and how.
I will also talk to you about which components you need to buy.

But, there is nowhere that says I can't let some one use my reloads. I just cannot sell them. It is like explosives. I can make and possess nitro glycerine for my own use. I can not sell it. (Per BATF_ Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturerís license)

Lots of people think they know the law that don't'

It is like buy a gun and giving it away as a gift. Lot of people believe you cannot do that. Yet it is 100% legal as far as the BATF and the 4473 is concerned. Simply read the instructions for the question 21.a on page4 of the form. You are the actual end user. Your use is giving it as a gift.


I have let people shoot my guns with my reloads and a very select few I might GIVE some reloads. Same people I might lend my truck too.

BTW you can ask all kinds of questions of the BATF and they will answer.

Not long ago some one freaked out because someone else removed the import markings on a J&G model 10s gunsmith special that were imported. I wrote them and they said it was legal to remove such markings

Their email address is fipb@atf.gov <fipb@atf.gov>;


As far as liability goes. I might BBQ some chicken and if I let somebody else eat any of it and they choke on a bone I could be sued!!!!!!!!!!

If you won't let a friend shot your reloads, I suggest you don't lend him your car either. They could have a wreck.

Last edited by steelslaver; 10-16-2020 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 05:46 PM
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A friend of mine was just gifted a 4506. It was filthy and I cleaned it. I am waiting on some new springs but I was going to give my friend 50 of my reloads just to take it for a spin. Ammo being so scarce right now. I generally don't let other people shoot my reloads but I figured it wouldn't be an issue. I weigh every single charge I throw right down to the 1/10th of a grain, so I'm not worried about squib or kaboom. Maybe I should rethink it.
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Old 10-16-2020, 05:55 PM
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I shoot others loads...I am not gonna load 9mm...so I have a very conscientious friend load them for me. He uses a Dillon 550 I gave him to use. There are a couple of guns I will not shoot reloads in though unless I load them. But They are essentially irreplaceable and worth more than a pristine Registered Magnum... But they are shotguns. I at one time loaded ammo commercially. I learned a lesson pretty quickly
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:09 PM
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You stated you received 2000 rds of brass for 250 loaded! Big bother refers to that as the "barter system(same as cash)" and that puts you "in the business"!
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:32 PM
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You stated you received 2000 rds of brass for 250 loaded! Big bother refers to that as the "barter system(same as cash)" and that puts you "in the business"!
jcelect
Yes I said that, didn't say it was in payment for however it was a donation for my effort...

Just received another 1000 rds of .223 brass today as a donation for my effort.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:37 PM
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I’m 70, some of you old Ladies need to get a life. I’m not loading for every body I know, but I would and do load for friends. We are a pretty tight group and are always engaged in building somebody’s garage, changing out a hot water tank ect. We don’t spend a lot of time obsessing over such matters. Don’t worry about a few bucks giving a friend a box of ammo either.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:43 PM
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You stated you received 2000 rds of brass for 250 loaded! Big bother refers to that as the "barter system(same as cash)" and that puts you "in the business"!
jcelect
I can gift say my brother all the reloads I want. He can gift me all the brass he wants, Returning a favor is not barter nor is the exchange of gifts. No witnesses, no receipts, no evidence. I wouldn't be telling the world about it though. First of all its nobody else's business. But, I think the BATF and the courts have better things to do that prosecute examples like this. Could they. Probably, but then, if they want to they can probably find a reason to charge just about anyone with something nit picky.

I'll buy if you fly doesn't make you into a delivery service business. But, you could call it barter. Look out the Department of Transportation is going to "Get cha"

If it was the way some people seem to think it was about half the people at a gun show would go to prison for something. That guy with the old 30-30 and 1/2 a box of shells. Off to the pen. He can sell the gun but not the ammo.

I mix up some tannerite and hand it to my buddy to go set on the hill side. I just manufactured and distributed explosives. Off to prison.

You gave you buddy an Advil. Your not license for that.

Possible yes. But, highly unlikely.

Last edited by steelslaver; 10-16-2020 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:51 PM
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If you have ever witnessed a perfectly good Smith & Wesson revolver blow up from improperly reloaded ammo it is not pretty.

Back in 1976 I was in LE Basic Academy. We were issued nickel Model 10's. One of my fellow recruits got into reloading. Brought some of his reloaded .38 special rounds to the range and decided to try them before the instructors arrived. Don't know what happened/problem but when he fired his service revolver it blew up. Blew out the top of the cylinder and blew the top strap off the frame. He didnt get canned but sure he had to reimburse the department for his revolver. Fortunately no one was injured.

We used to train with 3-D Brand remanufactured ammo but i have never shot any reloads otherwise.

If I reloaded i would not do so for others for reasons stayed above.

Last edited by VaTom; 10-16-2020 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:00 PM
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Iím 70, some of you old Ladies need to get a life. Iím not loading for every body I know, but I would and do load for friends. We are a pretty tight group and are always engaged in building somebodyís garage, changing out a hot water tank ect. We donít spend a lot of time obsessing over such matters. Donít worry about a few bucks giving a friend a box of ammo either.
I like your thinking and I'm a youngster of one year younger then you.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:16 PM
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Down here in hills we donít worry to much about licenses and permits and such. We sure donít worry about ďwhat ifĒ and some rookie that blows top out of revolver with a double dose of Bullseye. I sold thousands of rounds of 3d and Mountaineer reloads to law agencies for years without a problem. I know guys who wonít shoot lead bullets, others who wonít shoot hand loads at all. Lots of guys wonít buy a used gun. What can I say? Itís their business the other 99% of us take the ďriskĒ.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:23 PM
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My reloads are shot by myself and my kids only. Iíll gladly lend components and equipment to close friends, but draw the line at actually loading ammo for anyone.
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
What some reloaded ammunition. I have a spare press I will loan you and maybe even some dies. I will show you what you need to do and how.
I will also talk to you about which components you need to buy.

But, there is nowhere that says I can't let some one use my reloads. I just cannot sell them. It is like explosives. I can make and possess nitro glycerine for my own use. I can not sell it. (Per BATF_ Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturerís license)

Lots of people think they know the law that don't'

It is like buy a gun and giving it away as a gift. Lot of people believe you cannot do that. Yet it is 100% legal as far as the BATF and the 4473 is concerned. Simply read the instructions for the question 21.a on page4 of the form. You are the actual end user. Your use is giving it as a gift.


I have let people shoot my guns with my reloads and a very select few I might GIVE some reloads. Same people I might lend my truck too.

BTW you can ask all kinds of questions of the BATF and they will answer.

Not long ago some one freaked out because someone else removed the import markings on a J&G model 10s gunsmith special that were imported. I wrote them and they said it was legal to remove such markings

Their email address is fipb@atf.gov <fipb@atf.gov>;


As far as liability goes. I might BBQ some chicken and if I let somebody else eat any of it and they choke on a bone I could be sued!!!!!!!!!!

If you won't let a friend shot your reloads, I suggest you don't lend him your car either. They could have a wreck.
I won't lend my vehicle to anyone.

I did that one time too many and it cost me thousands!
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:49 PM
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You stated you received 2000 rds of brass for 250 loaded! Big bother refers to that as the "barter system(same as cash)" and that puts you "in the business"!
jcelect
"For profit or livelihood" Reimbursement for cost does not count.
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Old 10-16-2020, 09:06 PM
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"For profit or livelihood" Reimbursement for cost does not count.
Same phrase for a C&R FFL 03 license. You can dispose of a firearm, just not with a profit motive.
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Old 10-16-2020, 10:03 PM
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I have made the "Use My Equipment" offer more than 20 times, over 20 years,,

NEVER once have I had a taker,,

People are just flat out lazy,, heck back in the 1970's there were numerous people that reloaded for free, and even supplied the components.

I used a guy like that until I moved, in 1974, he would load ALL the 22-250 I wanted, I would swap 10 boxes at a time.

He just loved reloading, and he had a job that allowed him to do it during working hours.
it helped pass the time.
After a couple batches, I did start running to GreenTops, and picked up the components.
He refused any money for the effort,,

The friendship parameters have changed, since then,,
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Old 10-17-2020, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by VaTom View Post
If you have ever witnessed a perfectly good Smith & Wesson revolver blow up from improperly reloaded ammo it is not pretty.

Back in 1976 I was in LE Basic Academy. We were issued nickel Model 10's. One of my fellow recruits got into reloading. Brought some of his reloaded .38 special rounds to the range and decided to try them before the instructors arrived. Don't know what happened/problem but when he fired his service revolver it blew up. Blew out the top of the cylinder and blew the top strap off the frame. He didnt get canned but sure he had to reimburse the department for his revolver. Fortunately no one was injured.

We used to train with 3-D Brand remanufactured ammo but i have never shot any reloads otherwise.

If I reloaded i would not do so for others for reasons stayed above.
Clearly a double charge. When I started reloading 8 years ago, I bought a single stage press and weighed every charge. People said Iíd get bored with it and move up to progressive presses and weighing every 10 charges or so. Hasnít happened and never will. I weigh every single charge and seat the bullet immediately after I dump the powder. I might make a mistake reloading at some point, but itís never gonna be an over charge or undercharge. I also use the same powder for pistol calibers so never gonna use the wrong powder. I have a different thrower for rifle.

I donít make a habit of giving my reloads but if the person who shoots them is OK with it, Iím not worried Iím gonna blow up his gun.
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:13 AM
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As previously stated, loading ammunition for friends or family is not against the law, provided youíre not doing it for profit. Liability could be an issue if something goes wrong. Iíve given away lots of factory ammo to friends in need, but typically reserve reloaded ammo for myself. Iíve made exceptions for two people in 44 years of reloading and they were both my brothers. Iíd do it again in a heartbeat if they need more custom loads for their hunting rifles.

My brothers and I are very close and I exercise extreme care reloading. The chances of blowing up one of their guns and getting sued is about as close to zero as your can get.
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Old 10-17-2020, 10:37 AM
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. . . The chances of blowing up one of their guns and getting sued is about as close to zero as your can get.
Letting everyone load their own reloaded ammo and shoot it in their own firearms is the only true ZERO chance of liability.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:16 AM
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I won't lend my vehicle to anyone.

I did that one time too many and it cost me thousands!
There are very few people I will lend a car to. About the same number and imagine this just about the same people I would let have some hand loads.

I am not advocating for anyone to reload for anyone else. If you don't trust any of you friends to have good enough common sense to use them correctly in good equipment and believe they might sue you if something went wrong, I can understand that. I might wonder about your choice of friends a bit, but, just like the rest of it thats your business.

I have noticed that the RCBS jr press I have offered to others is still collecting dust. As I am a collector of lots of things shooting related and inherited my step dads reloading stuff I have plenty of gear. I am willing to lend some of it, help others cast bullets, explain and show them how to reload. The pawn shops always have dies and other stuff

Most people just don't shoot that much or want to make the effort.

The only way to have zero chance of liability in this world is to quit breathing. There is no such thing as Zero liability. I just try to keep my odds real low.

Like I said I create liability if I give away a piece of BBQed chicken. Somebody might choke on it or fall down the steps coming to the house. My home owners insurance does have limits. They could take everything!!!! But, I like to BBQ so I will accept the risks. Living life on the edge here.

Last edited by steelslaver; 10-17-2020 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:26 AM
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You are right. I will allow my friends to reload, but I will not reload for them. liability...
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Old 10-17-2020, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cadmike View Post
You wonít supply a few reloaded rounds to a friend in need?
You think your reloads are great for your gun but will blow up somebody elseís because they havenít cleaned their gun?
Never use someone elseís reloads, no exception??
You guys sound like a swell bunch of old curmudgeons.

Pole vaulting over mouse turds, indeed.
Sarcasm about a subject important to many is just childish.

If I make a mistake, I'm responsible for only my safety and my guns. I have been reloading for a few decades and have no Kabooms yet but "caca occurs". I would feel pretty bad if my faux pas got into my friend's favorite semi-custom rifle and ruined it. Not counting financial responsibility, I have friends that I wouldn't want to harm. The same if I use others' reloads. Perhaps my friend, the one that has waay more reloading experience, had a cold or headache when he loaded some rounds and made one round that he misread the scale, or dropped a double charge. I'm sure he would feel bad if his reload ruined/harmed my gun. What if my friend stumbled across the huge elk buck, the shot of a lifetime, and he only had one of my reloads and his only chance was one shot and my load went 6" over the trophy buck's back?

I guess being concerned with our or other's safety (and with a very simple remedy) makes us "old school" or gruffy curmudgeons that obsess over small responsible actions, well add my name to the list! But this is still a free country and there are no laws stating one must be responsible or safe, so I'll continue to use my standards and you can use yours...

But I have already given the above post more attention than it deserves, so, I'm done...

Last edited by mikld; 10-17-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 10-17-2020, 01:27 PM
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I don't share my reloads with anyone nor do I shoot anyone elses reloads.

For the same reason, no one packs my parachute for me, nor do I pack anyone elses.
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