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Old 11-11-2020, 01:44 PM
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Default 2400 in a snub?

Iím interested in trying Elmerís heavy 38sp load which uses 2400. Is this pointless in a 2Ē bll? Iíve been using Bullseye, Unique, and Power Pistol to date.

I guess what Iím really wondering about is powder speed vs barrel length.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:05 PM
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I would guess you will get a nice flash when you shoot it,,
I have some 2400, the only gun that seemed to use its capabilities is my nephews Desert Eagle,, in 44MAG,,
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:11 PM
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I remember a test years ago in one of the gun magazines and if I remember right, they got the most velocity in a snub with 2400.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:13 PM
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Wear Your shades if You shoot at night.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:30 PM
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With my testing in my J frame snub nose revolver with a 158 gr. lead bullet........

a full load of 2400 powder did just, beat out Unique with a speed of 835 fps
but it could not match the vel. that Blue Dot put out into the 900's.

I ran out of my old 800-X powder. It might have given me some high fps also,but I will never know, since I don't have a need for it any more.

It is just that 2400 powder does so much BETTER in the .357 case, that I don't waste it any more in the short 38 case.
There are lots of powders that will reach +P loads in the 38 snub nose and even use half the amount of powder.

Have fun.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:34 PM
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Generally, the powder that produces highest velocity in a long barrel will produce the highest velocity in a short barrel. Again, "generally".
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:18 PM
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Thanks everyone... hmmm, adding Blue Dot to the think list...
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Old 11-11-2020, 07:25 PM
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As a note to powders that reach high fps in the 38 special loads....

If you have any "Old" manuals you will also see a lot of "Fac Dup" and high vel loads with the use of Herco powder.

For some reason it is not mentioned in todays manuals, I guess letting all the newer powders get some of the "Spotlight", and to help sales.
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Old 11-11-2020, 08:26 PM
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When I first started reloading for the .357 Magnum in the mid-seventies, I loaded some with Hercules 2400 powder. Despite using magnum primers I still had some unburned powder granules with 4 inch barrel revolvers. There was bright flash and loud muzzle blast. When shooting with a six inch barrel revolver, the flash was still there, but was not as pronounced. Additionally, there was more complete burning of powder with less unburned powder granules.

I got away from Hercules 2400 and Hodgson's 4227 because of this. I hope that 2400 works for you but keep in mind that there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

HTH.

JPJ
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Old 11-11-2020, 08:44 PM
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Probably be a good way to gravel the driveway. Even out of a 4" barrel 2400 doesn't really give a clean burn. Having shot thousands of rounds of 38s loaded with 2400, they shoot fine but there will be a lot of unburned powder.
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Old 11-11-2020, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
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Probably be a good way to gravel the driveway. Even out of a 4" barrel 2400 doesn't really give a clean burn. Having shot thousands of rounds of 38s loaded with 2400, they shoot fine but there will be a lot of unburned powder.
and IMR4227 is even worst than 2400 when it comes to un-burned powder and flakes that will get in and around the extractor and cause the cylinder to lock up or not work.

However a full cases will give you a "Standard" 38 special loading with 125 JHP and 158 lead bullets, if you want a full case of powder, before seating a bullet.
No way is there any chance of a double load to blow up your revolver !!

They will work, if that is all that you have, for making loads for the 38 special.
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Old 11-11-2020, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
Thanks everyone... hmmm, adding Blue Dot to the think list...
Might also consider adding HS6 to your think list. Donít forget a good firm crimp.
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:46 PM
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Our own bmcgilvrey tested 2400 in a 38 SPL years back. He also tested other powders, but commented "It will be noted that the slower powders still register the highest velocities in the short barrel." 2400 and SR4756 beat out Herco and Unique.

I have not bothered to check but please note that his load is almost certainly above current recommended max loadings.

His results:

158 Grain Lead SWC/11.5 Grains 2400

2-inch Barrel
MV 1037 fps
ME 377 ft./lbs.
ES 71 fps
SD 30.2 fps

4-inch Barrel
MV 1150 fps
ME 464 ft./lbs.
ES 50 fps
SD 26.8

6-inch Barrel
MV 1162 fps
ME 474 ft./lbs.
ES 58 fps
SD 22.2 fps

8 3/8-inch Barrel
MV 1102 fps
ME 426 ft./lbs.
ES 67 fps
SD 24.0 fps

Google "Four High-Performance .38 Special Handloads" if you want to read more.

Last edited by dr. mordo; 11-11-2020 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 11-12-2020, 02:26 AM
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I quit using 2400 because of unburned granules getting beneath the extractor. I have had very good results with Accurate #9 for full power 357 and 44 Mag loads (clean burn and less flash). I have not tried Accurate #7 in short barrel 357's but it may be a great powder for that application.
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Old 11-12-2020, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
Thanks everyone... hmmm, adding Blue Dot to the think list...
Good thinking. Blue Dot is one of the top performers in .38 Special, .357 magnum, and 9X19. Should do very well in many applications.

Only reason I'm not using Blue Dot now is that 8 lb. keg of Unique I picked up a few years ago. Another fine performer in .38 Special. Moderate range ammo, 158 cast SWC and 4.5 grains Unique. Old standby load 5.0 grains. For +P load bump it to 5.4 grains (I only use that in steel-frame K-frame or larger revolvers).

A little quick math shows me that 8 lbs. of Unique will provide me with about 11,000 rounds of .38 Special. Pretty economical!
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Old 11-12-2020, 08:07 AM
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Yes, I had found the bmcgilvrey post, that's one of the data points that first interested me.

While obviously harder on the gun, I wonder how much more velocity you'd get from Keith's 13.5g out of a 2"?

(Thinking in terms of woods loads... a 60 is a really convenient pocket gun for hiking.)
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Old 11-12-2020, 11:51 AM
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I like 2400 in 357, 44, and 45 Colt, but I'll stick with Unique for snub 38 loads. Less wasted powder and less flash.
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:28 PM
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If you're getting the desired velocity and accuracy is acceptable, don't worry about unburned powder with #2400 or anything else.
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:54 PM
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Even though many say that 2400 will get you the highest fps in a 2" 38 snub nose with a lead 158 gr. lead swcHP bullet.............

The faster burning powders are not to shabby and can pass the Factory data on their ammo box and reach a doable +P loading.

In my J frame snub nose I got the following;
Bullseye.......... 752 fps.
Red Dot .......... 800
w231 .............. 816
Green Dot ....... 822
Universal ......... 824
Unique ............ 861
Blue Dot .......... 851 reduced load c/o POA and Accuracy

Any load will work.............
and not leave powder flakes all over your shooting table.
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Old 11-12-2020, 01:51 PM
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Way back when I started reloading, loaded a lot of 2400 in 38 and 357 cases.
One day I was shooting on sandbags on a concrete range table.
I was shocked when I saw the amount of unburned powder on the table!
Probably from 4 inch barrels.
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Old 11-12-2020, 01:55 PM
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I might imagine you will be blowing a lot of unburned powder out the barrel
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Old 11-12-2020, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
Generally, the powder that produces highest velocity in a long barrel will produce the highest velocity in a short barrel. Again, "generally".
That's what I've always read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post

In my J frame snub nose I got the following;
Bullseye.......... 752 fps.
Red Dot .......... 800
w231 .............. 816
Green Dot ....... 822
Universal ......... 824
Unique ............ 861
Blue Dot .......... 851 reduced load c/o POA and Accuracy
When I started reloading .38SP & .45ACP Bullseye was unobtanium locally but all the data I looked at had Green Dot almost identical and I could get it. Nowadays I have plenty of Bullseye but probably 90% of my .38, 9mm & .45ACP is Green Dot.

I'll be looking at Blue Dot for my 125gr HP .38SP loads for sure.
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Old 11-13-2020, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
If you're getting the desired velocity and accuracy is acceptable, don't worry about unburned powder with #2400 or anything else.
Some of us are quite frugal and do not want to see anything wasted.
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:47 AM
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Default I don't get unburned powder with 2400....

...but I do get a lot of yellow/green/goldish colored dust all over everything which I presume is some sort of ash.

Oh, this is out of a 6" barrel so that may help with the unburned stuff. But that powder is strange. I'd expect black, brown, grey but YELLOW?
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Old 11-13-2020, 11:16 AM
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I have had issues with unburned Universal in virtually every caliber (yes I'm crimping), so I have decided I'm going to use magnum primers with it and work my loads up again.

Just something to consider if 2400 isn't completely burning for you.
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Old 11-13-2020, 11:16 AM
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Powder that burns outside the barrel produces a spectacular muzzle flash but is otherwise wasted. I started reloading 41 Magnum for a 4" M-57, 8 grains of Unique, 210 SWC, saw unburned powder, cut back to 7.5 grains, same good accuracy, no unburned powder.
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Old 11-13-2020, 01:29 PM
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I will not bother you with all the numbers in 38, 357 and 9mm loads but.........

I have found that a full load of Green Dot in a 3" to 5" 9mm barrel will reach or pass the "NATO" load with a 115 & 124 gr. FMJ , out of my weapons.

It also does well with my 12 Ga. trap loads.

If you run out of w231 and have GD......... try a few loads, in light target or full loads.
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Old 11-13-2020, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
...but I do get a lot of yellow/green/goldish colored dust all over everything which I presume is some sort of ash.

Oh, this is out of a 6" barrel so that may help with the unburned stuff. But that powder is strange. I'd expect black, brown, grey but YELLOW?
That's unburned powder. If you wanna see a ton of it try downloading H110!

I was getting that with my .357 2400 loads. Upped the charge by .2 gr & it stopped.
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Old 11-13-2020, 05:05 PM
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Default Aw man...

....sometimes brilliant muzzle flashes are FUN!
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Old 11-13-2020, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
I will not bother you with all the numbers in 38, 357 and 9mm loads but.........

I have found that a full load of Green Dot in a 3" to 5" 9mm barrel will reach or pass the "NATO" load with a 115 & 124 gr. FMJ , out of my weapons.

It also does well with my 12 Ga. trap loads.

If you run out of w231 and have GD......... try a few loads, in light target or full loads.
I've discovered Green Dot quite late in my reloading career.And the more I use it,the more I like it.While it won't give magnumlike velocities,it does an honest job in all non magnum calibers(.38Spl,9mm and my favorite in .45Colt;guess it would also be doing good in its acp brother).It burns clean and is accurate.Expect normal for the caliber velocity.
Next time you have a hard time getting your favorite powder for these calibers,give it a try.It is normally easily available and you might just like it(sounds like a commercial from the '60s LOL).
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Old 11-13-2020, 07:31 PM
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Ive been using a 358156 in .38 brass crimped in the 1st groove over 12.2 gr of 2400 with standard primers. They fit in my Ruger Speed Six .38 Special and the accuracy is excellent; as a matter of fact this load shoots awesome out of all my 357's too. No unburnt powder. Basically my go to mass production load now. Don't have a chrony; but I don't care how fast their going with that level of consistency! Absolutely no signs of pressure brass just falls out.
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Old 11-13-2020, 11:59 PM
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Several years back i chrono'd a friend's 12.5 2400 load with an Ideal 357446, crimped in the 2d lube groove in .38 spl case. 3" Ruger SP 101 showed 1158 fps avg, 4" S&W 686 showed 1219 fps. Both ES below 16, SD below 5. This load came from an article Skeeter Skelton wrote in the 70s about if he could only have one gun.
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Old 11-14-2020, 12:11 AM
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I believe Skeeters article was using the Lyman 358156 gas checked cast bullet . It's the Ray Thompson design with 2 crimp grooves . Skeeters load used 13.5 grs of 2400 powder in a 38 special case crimped in the lower crimp groove . He had written the article but never submitted it for publication . His wife found it after his death and submitted it . I have shot that combo many many times . It is very accurate and I load I still use . Regards Paul

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Old 11-14-2020, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
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....sometimes brilliant muzzle flashes are FUN!
I agree, at least when powder, primers, and bullets were cheap.
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Old 11-14-2020, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
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I believe Skeeters article was using the Lyman 358156 gas checked cast bullet . It's the Ray Thompson design with 2 crimp grooves . Skeeters load used 13.5 grs of 2400 powder in a 38 special case crimped in the lower crimp groove . He had written the article but never submitted it for publication . His wife found it after his death and submitted it . I have shot that combo many many times . It is very accurate and I load I still use . Regards Paul
The article I'm referring to was in the Pistol and Revolver Digest, 2d edition around 1979-ish. Im aware of the article of which you speak. Same author, different articles. He did mention the 358156 as his preferred bullet, but in his SHTF scenario, he didn't want to bank on being able to obtain gas checks, that's why he went with the 357446.

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Old 11-14-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I believe Skeeters article was using the Lyman 358156 gas checked cast bullet . It's the Ray Thompson design with 2 crimp grooves . Skeeters load used 13.5 grs of 2400 powder in a 38 special case crimped in the lower crimp groove . He had written the article but never submitted it for publication . His wife found it after his death and submitted it . I have shot that combo many many times . It is very accurate and I load I still use . Regards Paul
That's the way I went after reading that article. With the newer 2400 12.2 to 12.5; with good crimp was where I found best accuracy in my guns.
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Old 11-14-2020, 08:21 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is online now
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Guess I never saw that article . I just always remember Skeeter talking up the Lyman 358156 . I would like to read that article , it sounds interesting . Years ago I had Tom @ Accurate Molds make 2 / 4 cavity molds for me , both a clone of the Lyman 358156 w/o the gas check . I wouldn't want to begin to guess how many thousands I have cast /shot . That one and the Keith / Lyman 358429 are my 2 most favorite and used cast bullets in the 357 .
Tim357 , thanks for the upadate . I see you're in Az . I spent the most of 60 yrs in Az . Regards Paul
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:45 AM
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I use 4.0 grains of Sport Pistol and 125 gr FMJ for my 38’s. I haven’t tried 2400. Isn’t that a magnum powder?
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Old 11-21-2020, 08:34 AM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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Originally Posted by 66snub View Post
I use 4.0 grains of Sport Pistol and 125 gr FMJ for my 38ís. I havenít tried 2400. Isnít that a magnum powder?
It is a powder that is far more suitable for magnum loads. It is a slow burning powder, so using greatly reduced charges in magnum cases or charges that are safe in 38 or 44 Special usually result in incomplete combustion and a lot of unburned or partially burned powder.
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:15 AM
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Getting the highest mileage out of a can of gun powder is my goal, no wasted powder. First I use unique in my leadcast 38 special loads.in my 357 mag itís 2400 for jacketed bullets. The shorter 38 special case has a higher velocity using the same amount of powder in both cases. I load 2400 in magnums with jacketed bullets.

Fact, note food for thought. In my 6Ē barreled python the 140 gr jhp is accurate to 100 yds. Iím not sure how accurate it is in a snubbing. Using 2400 powde.
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Old 11-21-2020, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBill View Post
Getting the highest mileage out of a can of gun powder is my goal, no wasted powder. First I use unique in my leadcast 38 special loads.in my 357 mag itís 2400 for jacketed bullets. The shorter 38 special case has a higher velocity using the same amount of powder in both cases. I load 2400 in magnums with jacketed bullets.

Fact, note food for thought. In my 6Ē barreled python the 140 gr jhp is accurate to 100 yds. Iím not sure how accurate it is in a snubbing. Using 2400 powde.
Barrel length has no real impact on accuracy. The reason so many people say snubbies are inaccurate is because of the short sight radius combined with the lighter weight of the revolver making accurate shooting by hand much more difficult.
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