In a recent conversation with a friend I commented that I had heard that one could not load .45 Colt cartridges to higher levels due to an inherent flaw in the case design. (Which it seems it should be easy enough to over come.) I know commercial loads are limited for fear someone will put one in his Peacemaker and blow it to hell. He said this was not true and that he loaded his .45's to near magnum levels for use in a couple of rifles chambered for .45 Colt and for his Super Blackhawk. I have a Model 25 with cylinders for both .45ACP and .45 Colt. My question is: Can I fire .45 Colts with such high performance loads in my Model 25?
Mel Atkins

I have had a Model 25. I did not and surely do not recommend you doing so. It is not a case problem but a question of cylinder wall thickness and the area of the notches for the locking bolt.
FYI not all Ruger revolvers will take the high performance 45 Colt loads. The Flattop and the late model Vaqueros do not.

Loads of that level are generally referred to as "Ruger Only" loads -- meaning they are meant for use only in guns like the Ruger Blackhawk and Freedom Arms .45's, or in appropriate lever action rifles. I don't know that they'd blow up your 25, but they'd pound the bejeebers out of it.

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Pisgah

I believe there is a very good reason most reloading manuals call these "Ruger Only Loads"
Somewhere, likely Handloader magazine but not sure I saw loads specifically for S&W Models 25-5's and 625 45 Colt's, I believe the loads were meant
to mimic pressure levels of 45 ACP which is more like 20M PSI instead of the 14M PSI that is customary for 45 Colt to prevent as you said "blowing up old Peacemakers"

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SWCA 2282
Chris

Getting a .44 Magnum makes far more sense.

I load two levels of 45 Colts, the standard pressure one for my Governor and higher pressure ones for my 460's. I use the load data on Hogodon's web site and the rounds are stored in different types of boxes.

Groo here
There are many articles on loading 45 colt M-25's due a search.
The 45 colt in orginal BP loading from a 7 1/2 in colt was sed to go through a horse and into the person on the other side.
As this load was a 250ish gr bullet at 950 to 990fps , and
the m-25 can due this from 4in barrel with some modern powders...
Why load more????????

In my youth I loaded the .45 Colt cases well beyond reason.

I've packed W296/H110 in them for T/C and Blackhawks.

My first chronograph demonstrated the point of saturation was reached well before where I'd been.

The case stands up fine. I would never shoot these heavy loads in any handgun other than Ruger, etc. No Colt, no Clone, no Smith other than a .460!

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

Ruger Blackhawk yes, S&W 25 Absolutely NO. I load shooting shed clearers for the Ruger and buy factory for any others I own.

I load the 45 Colt to the basic ballistics from days past . Yes, I have hot rodded the 45 Colt in the past . Then one day I feel I " wised up " realizing the performance it offers in standard spec's . I have an OM Ruger Vaquero . It's built on the 44 magnum frame so it will take those hot loads . I respect the 45 Colt for what it is and what it isn't . It's not a " 45 magnum " . Favorite powders -- Ramshot True Blue , Ramshot Zip , Winchester Super Field , Winchester Super Target , Accurate #2 . Many reloaders favor Unique , I'm not one favoring Unique in 45 Colt . Regards Paul .

Just in the last week or so, someone posted the article about loading the 25-5 a bit warmer. Can anyone find it?

I can tell you that using a 255 gr cast bullet with 13.0 grs of HS6 , using a magnum primer is a load that John Linebaugh has favor for . Regards Paul

I bought an original model Vacquero .45 Colt a couple years ago. Took me quite a while to find one. For the heck of it I bought one box of Grizzly +P 335gr 1175fps shells. Holy moly. I shot 3, my buddy shot 1, and I've still got 16. No way I'd shoot that load in your Smith.

Now THAT'S video I wish you had made. Just to see it, no way I'd want to copy it or get close. I like my 45 colt loads to just plow along around 800 fps, sometimes 900'ish, often 750'ish.

I do not want to own another 44 mag or 41 mag, outside of my leverguns. I have moved on to loads that I can enjoy shooting all day. Whether they be 45 colt, 44 special or 38 special.

Magnums for me theses days level off at 357 and 32 H&R mag. My hand and ears thank me for "mellowing" down my "need for speed".

I load my 260 gr cast bullets up to 1000fps in a 5" gun. About the same pressure as my 45acp guns.There is no reason in the world a 45 colt cylinder is any weaker than a 45 cylinder and they both have the same case OD. A 260 gr bullet with a bigfrontal area doesn't need more speed.

Read some of Linebaugh stuff on the 45 colt and the model 25 DO NOT use his 45 colt Ruger loads, he does have some S&W loads, But I stay away from his max ones there too. More powder, more pressure with for small gains in fps after about 1050fps

The weakness of the case is long gone with modern cases. That was a problem with the old style balloon head cases made similar to 22 cases.

Or, a 454 Casull...?

Cheers!

Model 25s can be taken to max standard loads without problems they are a stronger gun then older Colt SAAs however they can't handle the loads listed as Ruger, T/C Contender.

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SWHF #595

Why beat up a fine piece of equipment? When I first started reloading and had a .44 Mag, it was a Ruger Super Blackhawk. I used stuff that was hotter than Hades. When I bought my Model 29, a friend (the gunsmith) told me to shoot .44 Special loads in it. His analogy was you don't beat up an expensive car like you would one that was a beater.

Another reason is that over years of shooting, I have arthritis in my shooting hand from being beat by handguns. I shot Bullseye and IPSC for quite a while. Now I am paying for it. A Model 342 Ti with a 2 inch barrel loaded with .38 Special +P, will just about make me come to tears after 5 rounds. Hot loads are not loaded here anymore........

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

When Elmer Keith was working with " Heavy" handgun loads in the Colt SAA he discovered the area of the locking notch cuts in the cylinder were the weak spot in the 45 Colt ...his first choice . To get more metal in this area he switched to "heavy" loads in the 44 special chambered guns . This is why the 45 magnum wasn't invented then and the 44 magnum was .
The 45 Colt case was never a problem and it does not have any design flaws ... listen to your friend .

I would leave the "Ruger Only" loads to the Ruger's .
You can get a lot of power with modern standard pressure 45 Colt loads ... a 250 grain 45 bullet @ 900 fps is still a heavy hitter .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Please cite your source of this information. Who said it? I've never considered that any handgun could do this.

I've never been a real steadfast Elmer Keith fan but did read much of what he wrote for many years. I think once he became seriously interested in experimenting with the .44 Special, he pretty much abandoned the .45 Colt. True Keith disciples will know the details far better than I.

I've worked with the .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt for well over forty years, almost exclusively with cast bullets. I've used single-action revolvers, double-action revolver, carbines, and rifles.

In .45 Colt, I'm now down to a 25-5 that I bought new around 1980 and a Winchester Trapper purchased new thirty years ago. Being a slow learner, it's taken me a while to figure out the .45 Colt really offers nothing over the .44 Special. That's not a criticism of the .45 Colt; rather it's merely a look from a practical perspective. It seems the .45 Colt has an abstract allure that keeps it from dying entirely.

The .44 Special will take to hot loads as well as the .45 Colt. I suppose there are plenty of advocates for both cartridges. I've never seen much need to hot rod either cartridge. Such loads may not destroy a gun, but they are hard on both gun and shooter. Best accuracy will often be found below maximum threshold levels. Even for hunting, the hottest of loads are not required. Rather, a more suitable gun and cartridge might be better.

I've loaded .45 Colt cartridges to hell-for-leather specs, but only for large-frame Vaqueros, 3-screw later Blackhawks, and a Winchester 94 Trapper. These approach or equal .44 magnum power. They are certainly a handful.

I have several 25-5s, but use only factory or lower-level handloads for them. Just not worth the risk.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Which M25 do you have?

Not the full "Ruger Only" loads, though their starting loads are roughly the Maximum suggested for the M25s.

The 45ACP M25s can shoot 45ACP +P loads with a SAAMI max of 23K psi (-vs- the 14K psi SAAMI 45 Colt max).

No reason you can't load 250gr 45 Colt loads to the same pressure.

Many of us shoot 45 Super in our 45ACP M25s with no issues also.

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I've had no issues with 45 Colt +P handloads in my 25-13.

Shot pretty good too.
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Waiting for the break of day

The old 45 Colt cases were ballon heads, like in other cartridges, which was a weakness in the stronger modern revolvers.

Starline's 45 Colt brass are every bit as strong a 44 Magnum cases. I've loaded them to starting 454 Casull loads without issues.

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Balloon head brass in the middle (Internet picture, author unknown)
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Understanding the .45 Colt - Handloader #217
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Waiting for the break of day

Can you push the 250 gr cast bullet on the old 25-5 revolver......... ?

In my Speer manual eleven out of the twelve powders listed max out at.....
986 fps or less, for their top loads.
H4227 will add another 100 fps with a cci 350 Magnum primer.

Do you feel lucky ?

Groo here
Mike Venturo gun writer.

The U.S.Military asked for a revolver to supplant the M1873s used in the Philippines in 1909. This brought about the Colt M1909 U.S.Army (Navy and Marine model as well). The spec's for the round were 250 grain slug at 725 FPS which is a reduced load. If they felt it was good enough for combat then what's the fuss now? American Rifleman | Last of Its Kind: The USMC Model 1909 Colt

I shoot my Colt M1909 on a fairly regular basis.

For this loading I use 5.6 grains of Bullseye with the 250 grain slug.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Alliant powder co. has load data for the 45 Colt that does not exceed 14K psi , SAAMI std . They list 9.5 grs of Unique and a Blue Dot load of 12.9 ( call it 13.0 grs ) for a velocity of over 1000 fps using Blue Dot using a 255 gr cast bullet . I emailed them about that Blue Dot load they assured me it meant SAAMI spec's . It is a very accurate , powerful load that I feel is all that is needed . Regards Paul

You might want to double check your info.

Your quoted load data is for the swaged 250gr LSWC (#4683) bullet, NOT the 255gr cast SWC (mold# 82050) bullet.

The only (3) powders common to the two different bullets' load data are 1.0gr or more LOWER for the hard cast bullet than the soft swaged bullet.

For those wanting to keep their loads on the safe side, for weaker revolvers, might want to note this difference.

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Waiting for the break of day

I did and see no problem . They list 13.0 grs of Blue Dot with a 260 gr Speer JHP . So that same load with a cast bullet should be safe , as the tech at Alliant told me that using the load data for the Speer 255 swc was fine with cast . Alliants listing for a 250 cast bullet RNFP is showing only one powder BE-86 . This info is right off their website . Where did you get your data as I don't see it on Alliants website . Regards Paul

Nothing really wrong with current manuf 45colt brass. In a strong revo like the Ruger or Casull, you can reach 44mag pressures. Ypu will lose the brass case sooner than with slightly thicker 44mag brass.
I wouldnt run Ruger only loads in a M25, they just arent built for it imo. I would be fine running max SAA 45colt loads in a M25 though.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Reloading manuals like Lyman have plenty of data for 45colt. Why ebery reloader needs a couple good, current manuals.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

With a medium hard cast, 260gr lead rnfp, running 900fps, I doubt it stops inside a horse broadside unless it hits bone. Of course size f the horse would matter.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Just to shed some light on that story........

not all horses are big and fat............

some are a little skinnier than others, that might shed some light on this story.

Who ever owns those horses should be stung up. They have been either starved or in serious need of medical care.

But, on the 45 colt consider this.

Instead of looking at mass x velocity squared for an energy factor, look at frontal area, mass and velocity.

.452x.452x3.14=.642x260=167x1000=167,000

.429x.429x3.14=.578x240=139x1300=187,000

which still gives the 44 mag a 10% advantage

as apposed to
45 colt 260x1000x1000=260,000,000/450,240=578ft lb

44 mag 240x1300x1300=405,600,000/450,240=901ft lb

I simply fail to believe that a 44 mag will do 36% more damage than a 45 colt. A big hole is a big hole.

Here is another little fact for the Ruger fans. Ruger's large cylinder is 1.672 in diameter. An N frame Smith has a 1.664 dia cylinder. thats a difference of .008 or about the same as a barrel to cylinder gap. It does have a slightly offset notch though. The frame is also built to take the punishment better, But a model 25 has the exact same frame as a model 29 44 mag. If you stay below the same pressures as a 45acp+P you will never blow up a model 25 45 colt cylinder and the gun certainly will not "shoot loose" any faster than a model 29.

I wouldn't worry about wearing out my guns if I stepped up my loads another 100fps, but to me it is kind of pointless.

Anything I shoot with my 45 colt load at 100yds is going to be just as dead as anything I shoot at that range with another 100fps OR a 44 mag. The extra 100fps velocity would save me about a whole inch between at 150 yds over 100yds. Maybe 4" at 200yds. Whoopee, as I sure can't hold with in a inch at 150 yds with a 5" gun in hunting situations and just how many guys can hold a 4" group at 200yds with a revolver in the field??? Plus, even so, if by the time your able to do that, you sure should have figured out the hold over factor.

Jarhead, you got to much time on your hands to do all that figuring! Just put the hole where they taught you in Boot Camp and the subject is over with no matter the size of the hole. However, I too, prefer the .45 anything over a .44 anything.

AJ

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

But, I like math. I was putting holes in the right place before boot camp.

Correct on the Blue Dot load but not on the 9.5gr Unique load you referenced.

Their (Speer) 255gr L-SWC bullet is a hard cast lead. Their 250gr L-SWC bullet is soft swaged.

If it was okay to use the (higher) soft swaged bullet data with the hard cast bullet why are they on different pages with different max. loads?

No 260gr JHP load data for Unique but a 250gr GDHP has a 7.8gr Unique max charge for standard pressure 45 Colt.

9.5gr/Unique with a 250gr GDHP is basically starting "Ruger Only" (9.8gr) load data.

All my referenced load data in post #29 is from Speer Reloading Manual #14.

Their website has limited data.

You can see difference in the Speer 250gr GDHP & swaged 250gr L-SWC Unique load data here:
Speer Reloading - Handgun Data

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Waiting for the break of day

In my Lyman manual , they too list a 8.5gr of Unique as max with the Lyman 452454 , the Keith bullet . But --- they go on to say that they are crimping it over the front driving band , not in the crimp groove . Hence the reduced load of Unique . The lyman 454190 has no crimp groove so they crimped on the ogive , showing a max load of 9.0 grs of Unique . Both bullets are listed @ 250 grs . So there is quite a bit of difference in load data from different sources . I will agree that personally , I feel that 8.5 grs of Unique is a better load , esp in the old Colt SAA or Colt clones . Regards Paul

For old Colts use the loading that I referenced above. If it was good enough to use in 1909 it is good enough today and will not overstress the older guns.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

I would like to thank those that came in and posted in reference to what I have posted . Lots of good info coming forth . Lots of different load data and referencing to different sources . Gentlemen , thank you . Regards Paul

Thanks for all the info on .45 Colt loads in my Model 25-2. Sounds like I would do just as well to switch to the .45ACP cylinder with .45+P loads. Mel Atkins

I have a 25 in .45 Colt that I truly love to shoot. It is accurate and with the right loads will shoot with any pistol I own, except my 52. The is something impressive in the way the rounds sound when you load the chambers, kind of a thunking sound to my ears.

I don't have a spare cylinder, so I bought a 625. I enjoy shooting it quite a bit.

Of the two I prefer the 25, something about those big old bullets that gets me.


As an aside: I was loading 9 MM and the cases felt like they were so miniscule compared to the .45 Colt & .45 ACP. Almost like something for a toy gun.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The limiting factor with the 45 Colt is the gun it's fired in, not the brass itself. Some specialty conversion guns in 45 Colt can be loaded damn near to 454 Casull levels.