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Old 12-19-2020, 10:47 AM
pinkymingeo pinkymingeo is offline
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Default Second Case Sizing

I recently got a case gauge. To my dismay, many of my 45acp reloads are out of headspacing spec. Playing with things, I tried running completed rounds through an old Lee sizing die (after pulling the decapper, of course), essentially doing a second sizing. Joy!
My loads now match factory stuff. I tried a Factory Crimp Die without the same result.

Question: Is this second sizing going to raise pressures or do something else dire?

Opinions?

Last edited by pinkymingeo; 12-19-2020 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 12-19-2020, 11:44 AM
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Short answer is no, but your sizing die will not affect "head space." Head space is case base to mouth dimension, which isn't resized. You probably had a case(s) that wasn't fully resized. If a second resizing with the same die solved the problem, the problem lies with the first resizing setup.

Now the question is: Did your reloads chamber okay before you acquired the case gauge? Your gun chamber is the best "gauge" to use. Nothing against case gauges, but they tend to be SAAMI generic one-size-fits-all dimensions.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:00 PM
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I’ve run into similar problems where my completed rounds did not gauge fully using a SAAMI spec gauge. The culprit, for me, was case mouth flare or more properly, lack of removing case mouth flare. Re-sizing the cartridge, apparently removed enough of the case flare to allow the case to gauge. A proper crimp finished the job. Worked for me but YMMV.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:24 PM
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I use a case gauge for handloaded .223 ammo that is fired in ARs. Such gauged ammo is 100% reliable in feeding and function.

For .45 ACP however, if your ammo feeds and chambers fine without any difficulty or resistance in your gun all the time, I'd go no further.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:37 PM
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Sounds to me like you are not completely removing the flare in the case mouth after seating the bullet. A taper crimp should be applied to the 45 ACP to completely remove the flare.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:51 PM
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I have three other 1911s that eat almost anything you shove in them, within reason anyway. Recently, however, I got a 3" of an unnamed brand (starts with "K", ends with something that sounds like a private body part) that's fabulously picky about ammo. After 250 rounds I still have to shove the slide home half the time. I even ordered some nickel cases to (hopefully) help feeding. Sounds like the twice sized rounds are at least safe to shoot, so I'll give them a try and see what happens.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:59 PM
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Most semi autos really dont heafspace on the case mouth but held in place by the extractor. You are over thinking this.
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Old 12-19-2020, 01:15 PM
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I solved my similar issues with .223 brass, by purchasing a Redding Competition Shell Holder Set for .223. This allowed me to completely eliminate the case-to-chamber bulge in the brass at the base.
Saved my Brass!


You will need the appropriate Set for for your 45acp:
Redding Competition Shellholder Set #1 (308 Winchester 30-06


The Redding Competition Shellholder Kit #1 consists of five shellholders in varying heights with increments of .002". Allows you to increase or decrease the case to chamber headspace without adjusting the dies. Storage box included.

Notes:

Packaged 5 piece set in .002" increments (+.002", +.004", +.008" & +.010")
Each shellholder is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case to chamber headspace.
Set allows you to adjust case to chamber headspace of your reloads with a simple shellholder change.

Last edited by HorizontalMike; 12-19-2020 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 12-19-2020, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
Sounds to me like you are not completely removing the flare in the case mouth after seating the bullet. A taper crimp should be applied to the 45 ACP to completely remove the flare.
Either that or flaring the case too much for loading. The case mouth should only be flared deep enough to allow the flat base of the bullet to move past the lip of the mouth to engage the inside of the case wall before being seated; I usually flare about 0.065-0.070" deep. I don't crimp my semiauto loads (but I only shoot them in semiauto pistols). I load 9mm, .40S&W, 10mm Auto and .45 Auto; never had any issues due to an out of spec case mouth diameter not allowing full seating in the chamber (headspacing), or feeding issues.

Did I read the OP's post correctly? He runs a completed round through a sizing die (minus the depriming pin)? I've never tried it, because I never figured it was intended, or would even work. I.D. of my RCBS .45 die is 0.464", and the O.D. of a completed .45 Auto round is 0.473" along the bullet seat area. For a completed round to fit inside the die, it would have to compress the bullet far enough to allow the case to size down to 0.464" (my empty cases come out of the sizing die at 0.466 due to a miniscule rebound of the brass). A competed round coming out of the sizing die (must take some real elbow grease) would be far less than the SAAMI spec of 0.473" diameter. I used digital calipers to obtain the above measurements, from my own dies and reloaded ammunition. My pistol runs perfectly (Springfield 1911A1) on my ammo.

Now, if the above posters are running .45 Auto revolvers with possibly different chamber dimensions, in the words of Roseanne Rosanna Danna, "never mind".
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Old 12-19-2020, 01:52 PM
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Just for giggles, I would drop two sized cases in the gauge and your barrel........
along with two loaded rounds and see if they "Go home" and seat correctly.

A "Fat" back end of a case or a "Puckered" rim can both cause problems in a auto pistol.

I even had a .358" coated bullet fail to chamber with my mixed brass, since it was just a little to large, for my chamber.

Carry on.
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:22 PM
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When I got my first centerfire semi-auto I thought I needed a case gauge (45 ACP). I fought my handloads/equipment trying to get that last .005" to sit in the gauge. I even bought new RCBS dies! I had been reloading revolvers and bolt rifles maybe 20 years prior with zero sizing/chambering problems and confident my handloads were good. I was on some forum, can't remember which one it was 'cause it was 22 years ago, and saw the "plunk test" explained. I put my case gauge in a drawer, somewhere, and have had zero problems, excellent feeding and accuracy with many different bullets/loads, just using the plunk test in 8 different semi-auto pistols in 4 different calibers...

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Old 12-19-2020, 02:36 PM
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Is the lee factory crimp die not more or less doing the same
thing resizing after all is said and done with the loading process?
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordson View Post
I’ve run into similar problems where my completed rounds did not gauge fully using a SAAMI spec gauge. The culprit, for me, was case mouth flare or more properly, lack of removing case mouth flare. Re-sizing the cartridge, apparently removed enough of the case flare to allow the case to gauge. A proper crimp finished the job. Worked for me but YMMV.
^Yes to This^
It took me awhile to figure out, but I was having the same problem with 45 ACP. I discovered that when you run them through the crimp die, the shorter cases don't get crimped (un-flared) enough and won't fit into the case gauge. By simply lowering the crimp die and adding more crimp to the ones that didn't fit, they will fit. Some cases are especially short, and you might have to lower the die a second or third time to get them to fit.
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Old 12-19-2020, 03:26 PM
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I have been loading 45acp over 40 years and never thought about it. Just chunk the A-MERC brass

Last edited by 4barrel; 12-19-2020 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 12-19-2020, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
I solved my similar issues with .223 brass, by purchasing a Redding Competition Shell Holder Set for .223. This allowed me to completely eliminate the case-to-chamber bulge in the brass at the base.
Saved my Brass!


You will need the appropriate Set for for your 45acp:
Redding Competition Shellholder Set #1 (308 Winchester 30-06


The Redding Competition Shellholder Kit #1 consists of five shellholders in varying heights with increments of .002". Allows you to increase or decrease the case to chamber headspace without adjusting the dies. Storage box included.

Notes:

Packaged 5 piece set in .002" increments (+.002", +.004", +.008" & +.010")
Each shellholder is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case to chamber headspace.
Set allows you to adjust case to chamber headspace of your reloads with a simple shellholder change.
A pack of Sinclair die shims will do the same job for a lot less dinero.
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Old 12-19-2020, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkymingeo View Post
I have three other 1911s that eat almost anything you shove in them, within reason anyway. Recently, however, I got a 3" of an unnamed brand (starts with "K", ends with something that sounds like a private body part) that's fabulously picky about ammo. After 250 rounds I still have to shove the slide home half the time. I even ordered some nickel cases to (hopefully) help feeding. Sounds like the twice sized rounds are at least safe to shoot, so I'll give them a try and see what happens.
That 3 inch 1911 that's giving you problems - If you push the slide home, does it chamber the round?

If so, there is a good chance the problem is a tight extractor. Cartridge feed in a 1911 is controlled, as in the cartridge rim sliding under the extractor during feeding. A tight fit (easily adjusted) can cause binding, especially in shorty 1911's.

Larry
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:22 PM
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I tried a heavier crimp, and that really improves things. I suspect varying case lengths makes a big difference, but I'm not eager to trim 45 brass! Adjusting the extractor sounds like it might work. I'll try.
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Old 12-19-2020, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkymingeo View Post
I tried a heavier crimp, and that really improves things. I suspect varying case lengths makes a big difference, but I'm not eager to trim 45 brass! Adjusting the extractor sounds like it might work. I'll try.
If it ejects that is what it is supposed to do. It will cause jams if not tuned correctly. Don't worry about case lengths. I have some with at least 50 reloads but all I shoot is mid range. Get a spare extractor to try before bending. Take the slide off and insert a case under the extractor. It is supposed to stay in place when you shake the gun but not too tight.
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Old 12-19-2020, 07:20 PM
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A 45 ACP case that doesn't chamber, assuming over all cartridge length is 1.250" or less, can be cause by 2 things:

1] Sizer die is not adjusted far enough down to the ram to full length resize the case. The sizer die must TOUCH the shell holder when the ram is full up. Touch not a "cam-over crunch" that will break the carbide insert.

2] Adjust your taper crimp die so case mouth Outside Diameter where it contacts the bullet is 0.469" ± 0.001" . My 1911 pistols will feed any bullet (SWC, RN, 185 gr SWC jacketed match) if I hold that case mouth dimension on my loaded ammo.

When setting the crimp die, measure the resized case to make sure that max case length is not exceeded. Long brass will have a longer crimp that might be smaller than 0.469" diameter, but still works in my guns.
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Last edited by Engineer1911; 12-21-2020 at 08:02 PM. Reason: OAL = 1.250" not 2.250
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:47 PM
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Many beginners over expand the case mouth. Only expand the case enough for the bullet to seat without damage.

My crimp adjustment is to remove the case mouth expansion.

I have one Dan Wesson Pointman with a tight chamber that may balk on occasion with a slightly over size cast bullet.
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Old 12-20-2020, 10:18 AM
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Question Uh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Most semi autos really dont heafspace on the case mouth but held in place by the extractor. You are over thinking this.
Is this a practical matter: i.e., it applies (as if by default) when shorter than spec (normal?) semi-auto cases are chambered, or by actual design?

I always thought unrimmed cases headspaced in the chamber on the case mouth. Isn't that the reason for the trim length spec?

Cheers!

P.S. l use both LEE FCDs and a LYMAN case gauge on 380acp, 9mm, 45 acp, 45 Colt, 40 S&W, 38/357, 44 Special & Magnum, and a Wilson for 357 SIG . Occasionally I wear both a belt & suspenders...?

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 12-20-2020 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Add a P.S.
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Old 12-20-2020, 12:32 PM
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Do not adjust the extractor in your pistol unless it is failing to extract fired cases or is impeding the smooth feeding of rounds from the magazine. The cartridges are not head spacing on the extractor unless the brass is way too short or the chamber is way too long.

As others have pointed out, make sure you are full-length resizing the brass. The resizing die needs to contact the shell holder when the press ram is all the way up. Flare the case mouths just enough to accept the base of the bullet. Taper crimp after seating the bullet so that the case mouth is around 0.470" in outside diameter.
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Old 12-20-2020, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cracker57 View Post
Is the lee factory crimp die not more or less doing the same
thing resizing after all is said and done with the loading process?
Basically, the Lee FCD for handgun cartridges is a "post crimping sizing die". The case gauge is a slug of steel with a precision hole in it. It only reveals any out of spec., a too big somewhere cartridge...

Last edited by mikld; 12-20-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 12-21-2020, 12:40 AM
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The problem with using a regular sizing die after the case is loaded is that, if using cast bullet, it will swage down that bullet. When the brass rebounds, you lose your crimp.

The Lee FCD eliminates this problem.
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Old 12-21-2020, 03:30 AM
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Default Aw man....

....it's ALWAYS my fault. It's just a matter of finding the problem. Which can be challenging by some of my recent post. I HAVE gotten a lot of bugs out this year. After 40 years of reloading many types of cartridges, I should have it figured out by now!
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Old 12-21-2020, 05:35 AM
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head space is the distance from the breech face to the "shelf" that the case head is supposed to head space against (I have no idea what the technical name is for the little step before the throat).
Since I have NEVER had a .45 Auto case that was long enough to even meet minimum head space distance, I wonder if your cases are failing "head space" or simply not fitting the chamber?
Assuming you are simply talking about not chambering:
The solution to chambering problems is to determine the cause:
Take the barrel out of the gun (or, open the cylinder of the revolver). Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in chamber (or gage or cylinder chamber) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long (not a revolver issue)
2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

If by any chance you are simply going by a case gage (with minimum chamber dimensions, why not try and chamber in your GUN?
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Old 12-21-2020, 01:02 PM
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I shoot a 610(10mm) revolver in bowling pin matches. I load 38-40 lead bullets and use a strong roll crimp because my loads are hot! Sometimes the case gets a slight bulge at the bottom of the bullet. I use a carbide sizing die, with the decapping pin removed, in the last station of my Dillon! Problem solved!
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Old 12-21-2020, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroker468 View Post
The problem with using a regular sizing die after the case is loaded is that, if using cast bullet, it will swage down that bullet. When the brass rebounds, you lose your crimp.

The Lee FCD eliminates this problem.
The FCD, for handguns, does exactly that, resizes as a final step, after crimping. I bought one, out of curiosity, and it ruined my perfectly sized 44 cast bullets...
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Old 12-21-2020, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
A pack of Sinclair die shims will do the same job for a lot less dinero.
Not so sure about that. The quoted case holders offer "thinner" / higher positioning of the brass, so I do not understand how your "Sinclair Die Shims" could do this...
They appear to actually work in the completely opposite direction of what I found (12-19-2020 11:15 AM).

All I know is that what I found completely fixed/refurbed/resized my brass in question...
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