Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-26-2020, 10:16 PM
gwtx gwtx is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: near Goliad, TX
Posts: 17
Likes: 20
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Default OAL 9mm JHP

What is the advantage/reason for loading longer oal ? I've not been loading 9mm but a year or so, and not a lot rounds in that time. In researching, I see a lot of people load to the max (PLUNK) and then back off a few thou. Most of my reloading is mimicking the Factory ammo(124 XTP +P)I use in my "carry" pistol, and I just load to the same length as the Factory stuff, or just a tad longer.
Mostly just curious.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-26-2020, 11:36 PM
mikerjf mikerjf is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 836
Likes: 504
Liked 1,203 Times in 482 Posts
Default

You may find a particular gun is more reliable with a certain COAL.

Since (all other things being equal) a longer COAL will have lower pressure, some might prefer the extra safety margin when using a max load.

I imagine it's possible there might be accuracy differences with the bullet farther/closer to the start of the rifling.

Published load data should specify a COAL, you don't want to load shorter than that.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 12-27-2020, 12:05 AM
jag22 jag22 is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas
Posts: 537
Likes: 3
Liked 224 Times in 139 Posts
Default

Because you can, thatís why we reload. What you should be learning is that the manuals are guides that should be followed but there is leeway. Iím sure youíve seen that many of them donít even agree. Some people like them hot (I donít) and some like powder puffs (donít like them either).
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 12-27-2020, 02:09 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,935
Likes: 2,942
Liked 4,690 Times in 2,010 Posts
Default

You'll find some people take factors like loading close to the rifling that matter in long range rifle and apply it to loading short range pistol because they "feel" it should make the pistol load somehow better also. It doesn't, and it can cause reliability problems with normal component variations, not to mention when you buy that new pistol and it chokes on your longer reloads because it has no freebore in the rifling. There is no industry standard for freebore, and STI competitiion pistols have a lot while some compact 9mms have none.
__________________
Science plus Art
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 12-27-2020, 02:14 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 9,397
Likes: 1,323
Liked 7,111 Times in 3,374 Posts
Default

Some 9mm pistols need a short OAL to feed and eject the spent case
while others do well with the longer 1.165" maximum length.
It also depends on the bullets shape and the pistol's magazine, on what will work.

With the plated ball 115gr I start at 1.09 and go to 1.14" OAL
The larger 124 gr can start at 1.09 but can go to 1.165" OAL.
Some load the 115 out to 1.165" but I like a little more grip on the bullet.

The Berry THP or HAP 124gr bullet can have a 1.13" OAL with Unique but
it does much better at 1.075" with my faster powders. (small flake)
The 115/124 Gold Dot works best with a 1.12" OAL in my weapons.

Lots of different OAL from the companies..........
the Federal 9mm Ball ammo has their Amer. Eagle at a short 1.065 OAL.

Some pistols and powders gain FPS with a short OAL and less case volume space
but my 5" 9mm actually will drop FPS with the 115 &124 ball at 1.10 & 1.09" OAL with HS-6 and BE-86 powder.

The main goal is to get the ammo to feed.............
no matter what the OAL or the speed that it is going.

Have fun.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 12-27-2020, 07:10 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 29,173
Likes: 37,874
Liked 26,848 Times in 12,809 Posts
Default If you reload for short chambers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Some 9mm pistols need a short OAL to feed and eject the spent case
while others do well with the longer 1.165" maximum length.
It also depends on the bullets shape and the pistol's magazine, on what will work.

With the plated ball 115gr I start at 1.09 and go to 1.14" OAL
The larger 124 gr can start at 1.09 but can go to 1.165" OAL.
Some load the 115 out to 1.165" but I like a little more grip on the bullet.

The Berry THP or HAP 124gr bullet can have a 1.13" OAL with Unique but
it does much better at 1.075" with my faster powders. (small flake)
The 115/124 Gold Dot works best with a 1.12" OAL in my weapons.

Lots of different OAL from the companies..........
the Federal 9mm Ball ammo has their Amer. Eagle at a short 1.065 OAL.

Some pistols and powders gain FPS with a short OAL and less case volume space
but my 5" 9mm actually will drop FPS with the 115 &124 ball at 1.10 & 1.09" OAL with HS-6 and BE-86 powder.

The main goal is to get the ammo to feed.............
no matter what the OAL or the speed that it is going.

Have fun.
Save yourself a lot of trouble and find a coal for each type of ammo that works in all of your guns. I loaded and shot 1000 bullets that I hated because they were so touchy in most of my guns. They couldn't be 1000th of an inch too long. In addition the coating was lumpy. (Early in the powder coat game. I should have sent them back but didn't realize how much trouble they were going to be.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 12-27-2020 at 07:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 12-27-2020, 09:38 AM
gwtx gwtx is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: near Goliad, TX
Posts: 17
Likes: 20
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Thanks folks for all the good info. Your willingness to share it is much appreciated. Can't afford to do much experimenting or shooting at this time. The loads I have are working good. Like I said, mostly just curious.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 12-27-2020, 09:59 AM
noylj's Avatar
noylj noylj is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Southern AZ
Posts: 475
Likes: 1
Liked 200 Times in 134 Posts
Default

In my guns, a longer COL gives better accuracy.
This is balanced by whether the rounds fit the magazine, feed reliably, and chamber easily.
The optimumCOL (best accuracy with totally reliable feeding and chambering) is not carved in stone and is different for each different bullet.
When reloading, establish a COL that works in your gun(s) before you ever start to reload (make up a couple of inert dummy rounds you can use for feed and chambering tests).
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 12-27-2020, 07:12 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 9,397
Likes: 1,323
Liked 7,111 Times in 3,374 Posts
Default

Save yourself a lot of trouble and find a coal for each type of ammo that works in all of your guns. c/o post #6

The "Ball" bullets have a large area to be set at.....
the JHP bullets not so much, so............

I guess you could set every load at a OAL of 1.12" and call it a day...........

if they work in your 9mm pistols.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 12-27-2020, 09:07 PM
rg1 rg1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
Liked 57 Times in 40 Posts
Default

A guide for me when loading factory bullets such as Hornady XTP's, Speer Gold Dots, Rem Golden Sabers, etc. is to go to a local shop and ask to measure factory rounds. They will let you usually. Most 124 hollowpoints seem to be 1.120" to 1.125" oal and all I've loaded to these lengths feed and shoot well in various 9MM pistols and carbines. Use manual data for overall seating depths if different.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 12-28-2020, 12:54 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 29,173
Likes: 37,874
Liked 26,848 Times in 12,809 Posts
Default The ones I had were ball....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Save yourself a lot of trouble and find a coal for each type of ammo that works in all of your guns. c/o post #6

The "Ball" bullets have a large area to be set at.....
the JHP bullets not so much, so............

I guess you could set every load at a OAL of 1.12" and call it a day...........

if they work in your 9mm pistols.
1.06" was the absolute maximum on them. It said on the webpage to seat them there, but I thought I had SOME room to play with. I want bullets with a little taper to the profile from now on.

I have sub compacts to full size pistols. I believe the Shield gave me the most trouble (super reliable when ammo is good). Funny, the tiny Keltec,was less affected, i.e. It would shoot some rounds. Reloading 9mm was a bear for me, moreso than any other cartridge.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 12-28-2020 at 01:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 12-28-2020, 01:17 AM
shil shil is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lansdale, PA
Posts: 393
Likes: 1
Liked 89 Times in 52 Posts
Default

Careful! All 9mm bullets of the same weight and style are not equal. Use the published data for THAT bullet at THAT COL. Don't substitute a bullet of the same weight and style using the same COL. Different jacket alloy and/or longer bearing surface = possible overpressure. Been there, done that, learned from it.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 12-28-2020, 02:20 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 9,397
Likes: 1,323
Liked 7,111 Times in 3,374 Posts
Default

The only 9mm bullet that you really need to be on top of the correct OAL is the....................

147 gr plated Round nose by Berry, that I know of, due to the pressures that can build up if set too deep into the case.

I have yet to get a over pressure load from any of my manuals that I use, even with the +P loads in sturdy pistols.

Even the little 3" Kahr can take a +P load but it does not go to fast, compared with the longer barrels but it has enough energy to do the job.


As for the long OAL being better........
In my C9 3.5" and 5"pistols, the 124 gr. plated "Ball" FMJ type bullets that I use by several makers, all do better in accuracy with light to medium target loads, when they are set at 1.165".
I don't know if being closer to the lands or maybe being lower in pressure helps, but it works in my pistols.
This OAL is for target loads only.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 01-09-2021 at 02:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 01-09-2021, 12:54 PM
RussellD RussellD is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: America
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 17
Liked 729 Times in 358 Posts
Default

I load for a number of different pistols and carbines. My goal to is to load quality ammo that will function in everything.
__________________
The American dream is alive
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-10-2021, 02:16 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,826
Likes: 2,659
Liked 3,913 Times in 2,360 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwtx View Post
What is the advantage/reason for loading longer oal ? I've not been loading 9mm but a year or so, and not a lot rounds in that time. In researching, I see a lot of people load to the max (PLUNK) and then back off a few thou. Most of my reloading is mimicking the Factory ammo(124 XTP +P)I use in my "carry" pistol, and I just load to the same length as the Factory stuff, or just a tad longer.
Mostly just curious.
A factory oal is useless unless the bullets are the same.
You load long to lower pressures, maybe helps feeding, maybe more accurate.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 01-10-2021, 09:38 AM
gwtx gwtx is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: near Goliad, TX
Posts: 17
Likes: 20
Liked 12 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
A factory oal is useless unless the bullets are the same.
You load long to lower pressures, maybe helps feeding, maybe more accurate.
Thanks Fred. I use the same bullet, xtp 124g. I also use the Everglades 124g JHP which looks and acts just like the xtp,,as far as I can tell.
My loads feed fine, my velocity is just a little slower than the +p factory loads, which is where I think I want it.
I don't quite understand the reasoning for loading longer to lower pressure, when you can do the same by using less powder. Load longer to reduce pressure(velocity), and then use more powder to get the velocity back up to where you want it. I can tell no difference in accuracy because I'm not an expert shot, and don't have a "manson"(sp) rest.
I'm satisfied with my current loads, just wondered if I was missing out on something by not loading "to the max". With the "shortage" situation, I can't afford to do much experimenting.
Thanks again for your reply.
Buckle up
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-10-2021, 10:24 AM
growr growr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 4,412
Likes: 2,613
Liked 4,354 Times in 1,602 Posts
Default

Find which factory cartridge shoots and functions best in your guns.....replicate it, making sure that it will not bind in your magazine due to over length.

Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 01-10-2021, 01:00 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,826
Likes: 2,659
Liked 3,913 Times in 2,360 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwtx View Post
Thanks Fred. I use the same bullet, xtp 124g. I also use the Everglades 124g JHP which looks and acts just like the xtp,,as far as I can tell.
My loads feed fine, my velocity is just a little slower than the +p factory loads, which is where I think I want it.
I don't quite understand the reasoning for loading longer to lower pressure, when you can do the same by using less powder. Load longer to reduce pressure(velocity), and then use more powder to get the velocity back up to where you want it. I can tell no difference in accuracy because I'm not an expert shot, and don't have a "manson"(sp) rest.
I'm satisfied with my current loads, just wondered if I was missing out on something by not loading "to the max". With the "shortage" situation, I can't afford to do much experimenting.
Thanks again for your reply.
Buckle up
You asked so I was just giving you reasons. No data point for oal is really valid. So you load as long as possible in your gun with your bullet choice. Just understand that in handguns, shortening oal increases pressures, longer reduces them.
So if your load data says 1.145" oal with bullet A & you load shorter, pressures go up. So loading long is just belt & suspenders.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 01-10-2021 at 01:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-10-2021, 02:03 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 9,397
Likes: 1,323
Liked 7,111 Times in 3,374 Posts
Default

I don't have any Hornady JHP or "HAP" but I do have a Berry 124 THP that I use in my 9mm's for target work and just finding fps in my different length barrels.

I posted this on this site a while back but it does have some full standard 9mm loads with two different OAL due to the powders used.
The JHP is usually set shorter than a RN "Ball" bullet due to it's shape and one reason for the shorter OAL's in this photo.

This picture shows how a different OAL and a different powder used with a bullet in a pistol and make or break good accuracy.

Good loading.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:37 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,826
Likes: 2,659
Liked 3,913 Times in 2,360 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
I don't have any Hornady JHP or "HAP" but I do have a Berry 124 THP that I use in my 9mm's for target work and just finding fps in my different length barrels.

I posted this on this site a while back but it does have some full standard 9mm loads with two different OAL due to the powders used.
The JHP is usually set shorter than a RN "Ball" bullet due to it's shape and one reason for the shorter OAL's in this photo.

This picture shows how a different OAL and a different powder used with a bullet in a pistol and make or break good accuracy.

Good loading.
But that tells you little about oal affects on accuracy since you used diff powders. Oal can help or hurt acciracy but its not definitive either way.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-14-2021, 02:14 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 9,397
Likes: 1,323
Liked 7,111 Times in 3,374 Posts
Default

Well that target and OAL with that bullet tells me one thing........

that a full load of Bullseye and Blue Dot..............

Ain't getting it DONE !!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-14-2021, 04:12 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP OAL 9mm JHP  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 590
Likes: 305
Liked 260 Times in 166 Posts
Default

1st they need to function well in semiautomatic pistols. What may work well in one my not in another. An OAL adjustment can often make the difference.

Then we get into various different powders at differing velocities: this is where accuracy gets involved.

From a practical standpoint (at least to me?) setting some minimum standard, perhaps using factory ammunition and applying it to all one's pistols in that caliber, can provide a baseline to aim for....? (Pun intended)

In other words, shoot a magazine full of a factory loading you are satisfied with (and THAT'S presuming you are, indeed, satisfied), then try to replicate it functionally and as far as performance and accuracy are concerned. Then IMPROVE on it, if possible?

Certainly can be the case (another pun?) that different OALs, powders and loads generate different results from one gun to another. What works great in my CZ (and almost everything seems to work just fine) may well be MORE accurate (or may be LESS ACCURATE) in an M&P C.O.R.E. with a 5" barrel.

That elusive handload that functions in all guns, and is superbly accurate in all guns is pretty elusive. It takes investing both time and resources, and requires a certain degree of commitment (for want of a better term?).

I think that is where the term "dedicated reloader" comes from: we are certainly blessed to have a plethora of them on this Forum. They have my thanks!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)