I finally got a chronograph and my 357 magnum loads are performing weirdly. 4 inch barrel 686. 158 grain bullet with 17.5 grains of h110 with a small pistol magnum primer = avg of 1,160 fps. I then shot a 180 grain xtp load with 13.5 grains of h110 with the same primer, and averaged 1,029 fps. I was expecting 100 fps more on each. Major fireball on both loads.

I thought maybe the chrono was messed up so i shot some 357 Sig with 9.3 grains of longshot with a 124 grain bullet; average of 1,469 fps, with a max of 1,513. Strong recoil, so i believed that. I dropped doen to 8.3 grains of longshot and got an average of 1,336.

I am guessing that h110 is too slow burning for a 4 inch barrel? Just wondering if anyone else ever had this problem. What is a faster burning 357 powder compared to h110?

about 45 years ago I was shooting H110 in the 357 with Magnum primers.I forget what bullet weight. About 5% of the time the powder would not ignite,and the force of the primer would leave a bullet in the forcing cone. I made it a habit to take a short rod along with me to the range to knock the stuck bullets out the barrel. Darndest thing.

Who's loading data are you using? The published data generally states MV for a specific barrel length, which may be longer than what you are loading for. For instance, the Hornady manual lists 15.6 grains of H110 pushing a 158 XTP at 1250 fps. Their test barrel is 8" (Colt Python) to achieve that velocity. You would expect about 10-15% reduction in velocity with half that barrel length, depending on powder type. It may indeed be too slow a powder for optimum velocity from a short barrel. Try something like Accurate #9, but work your loads up from a lower powder load and look for pressure signs. Hornady's data shows 11.5 grains of A#9 giving 1200 fps with a 158, but that's also from a 8" barrel. it may be that you can't achieve much more MV with the 4" barrel without over pressure in the cylinder.

What you really want to shoot for (pardon the pun) is a consistent group, which may come with a less-than-maximum powder charge. See what you get at your present loads (which seem pretty hot), and work down to see what it does to your groups.

A chrono is an eye opener for the reloader. The book vel mean nothing, the chrono doesn't lie. Rule of thumb, expect 25-30fps gain or loss per inch of bbl. Just a rule of thumb though, every bbl is diff. I have 5 diff 4" 357mags. All give diff vel with identical loads.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Also note that from using H110 when working with 41 mags years ago, it is a powder that requires a healthy bullet crimp to build pressure for best results. Any way you cut it, H110 and W296 are known for their fireball and muzzle blast.

Lee's load data. I was puzzled because some guys on youtube post pretty high 4 inch velocities with h110 with 125 grain bullets, above 1,600 fps.

But yeah, book velicities are BS, even when adjusted for barrel length. Lee said 9.3 in the 357 Sig would get me 1,429, but it blew past above 1,500.

For comparison, I used to use 14 grs. H110 / 296, a CCI 500 or CCI-550 and a 160 grain cast SWC (H&G #51 mould). Muzzle velocity in a 6" barrel was a bit over 1100 fps. 12 grs. #2400 would give about the same velocity; both loads were accurate and I think point of impact was the same. A good roll crimp is all that's necessary for reliable ignition with H110/296 in the .357 magnum. The right crimp might require a little experimentation, but it needn't be a hard, bullet-distorting crimp. These only hurt accuracy and offer no advantage.

I no longer load for the .357 magnum, but when I did I finally went with #2400 exclusively. It doesn't have quite the bark and flame of H110 /296.

You might skip the H110 and the magnum primers and try some #2400 instead. I’ve been using #2400 for decades with never a problem or unexpected result. Over the years I’ve noticed a lot of people complaining of various issues with H110 and W296. I’d especially make it a practice to avoid H110 when shooting lightweight bullets in the .357. JMHO.

...in max loads with 2400 vs H110/296 depending on bullet weight.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the barrel gap on your revolver.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

One other thing, test barrels do not have a barrel/cylinder gap which is a huge variable with muzzle velocity in a revolver.

In my experience with several different chronographs and many different loads and different guns, .357 Magnum is somewhat of a weird one.

I'll disagree vehemently or we could argue specific terms.

Chronos mess up often, far more often chrono users have no idea how much affect the little things they do can goof with the numbers their chrono spits back at them. If you want the chrono to work best, you have to be EXTREMELY consistent with how you hold the firearm, where you send the bullets and how the chrono is placed, and how the light is hitting it.

Aside from the unit itself and how you use it, many handloaders believe THIS bullet and THIS powder at THIS charge weight are the only variables and that's miles from the truth. Differences in cartridge cases, differences in the crimp applied, difference in the ambient temperature that day and a massive difference when two different guns of the same caliber are sending this ammo over the chrono and... the biggest... and where the most folks fail fail fail... is sample size.

Guys load up six shots, fling them over the chrono and come to conclusions and that whole affair should be clearly labeled "amateur conclusions of very little value." A lot of what folks get worked up over would be critically defined as "statistically irrelevant."

Chronographs have a definite value, and way too many handloaders (especially when discussing them in forums) assign far too much value in them. So many folks tell people to get them, even hint that they are a "must own." And for most handloaders, they are nothing more than a toy that ends up opening infinitely more questions than answers.

These are my opinions of course.

I absolutely could not agree more with everything stated.

That does sound a bit slow from your 4" As mentioned make sure you have a BIG crimp on H110 loads. It greatly helps

Looking up stuff that I chronographed, I never did any of my 158 hand loads. However I did clock the older Remington 158s out of my 3 1/2" Model 27 at 1164FPS. Your handload should have been faster than that

As to 125 JHPs? I love the 125 and 21.7 grains of H110. I love that Big Orange Fireball and I love that deep throaty KABOOOOM that H110 creates.

I have probably wasted 100 pounds of H110 in loads like that over the past 3+ decades.

In my firearms this hand load clocked at:

1234 FPS from a Model 640 J-frame
1242 FPS from a 2 1/2" Mag-Na-Ported Model 66
1287 FPS from a 2 1/2" Model 66
1496 FPS from a 5" Model 627
1599 FPS from a 8" Python
1780 FPS from a 10" T/C Contender
2106 FPS from a 18" 1892 Lever gun

These numbers are the average of two 5 shot strings. In many cases these are the average of two 5 shot strings shot across two different Chronographs on different days to try and get a better average (that makes the average of four five shot strings)

__________________
"Acta non verba"

With a new Chrono shoot an arrow or a 22 across it and document the velocity. Write down the 22 you used and save some out of that box just to verify your chrono. If you ever think it is off, change your battery and reuse one of your standards.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

My old records show that I worked up a load of 17.5 gr H110 in Remington 357 Magnum brass, 158 gr Nosler JHP, and CCI-550 primers. This was tested in a Dan Wesson 15-2 with an 8 inch barrel. I averaged 1424 fps and the extreme spread was only 35 fps. My notes also indicate slightly sticky extraction.

H110/W296 is a very slow pistol powder. When you see a massive fireball, that's powder that is burning after the bullet has left the muzzle. That's wasted energy.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

That's exactly what Dr. Oehler told me when I bought my first chronograph from him. He said to fire a .22 rifle over the screens and noting the velocity. He said that .22 rimfire ammo is some of the most consistent ammunition made, and is a good way to check your chrono. I chrono my ammo to see what it's doing in MY gun, not yours, or the neighbors. MY gun! And that's what it's all about, checking consistency.

I have heard this statement many times. I question it. I don't know the answer. I seek the answer and I would like to hear more.

When I read this, my questions look like this:

If H110/W296 tend to give us the very best velocities in .357 Magnum and yet we get a massive fireball, are we to conclude that less of this powder would give us the same velocity with less fireball --OR-- are we saying that there is a better powder out there that will give us this same velocity with no massive fireball?

It is my belief that this powder (H110) will give us pretty much the most velocity we can get out of .357 Magnum. And with that, we are also going to get a massive fireball.

I don't believe the fireball is wasted anything. I don't know how we could harness that fireball and make use of it. I don't think that fireball means we have wasted anything.

I could be wrong! I'd love to learn more.

(Limited to handgun cartridges for the continuance of this discussion)

After using six chronographs a lot over the last forty years, I'll certainly agree with some of what you stated. However, if you're fine tuning a load and chronograph many groups over many days with varying ambient conditions, you'll get a pretty good feel for what the numbers are and what they should be from here on out. Whether that approach has "statistical" worth, I don't know, but it does have "real" worth.

As for things like brass, use one brass for testing, not mixed range pickup stuff; saves on headaches. Crimp (whatever type you prefer) enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil and don't crimp any more than that, regardless of the powder.

Chronographs are far from toys; they're very useful if you use them in a useful way. The only chronographs I have are now are the Oehler 35P and a LabRadar. Numbers on one unit correspond well with the other. It's been a while since I used anything else, but, as I recall, numbers on the other four machines corresponded well with what I'm getting on the current ones. All chronographs have quirks, but I've never had one that "messed up often".

Yes! Yes! Yes! If you take a LARGE sample size and if you have four decades behind a chrono and you have experience using them, I totally agree!

I have a Chrony Beta Master. Lots of us call is the Master Beta, heh. I also call it “the fun sucker.”

Chrony does well: clocking loads

Chrony does not well: interface. Power of a 1985 super computer but wholly controlled with only three click buttons.

Chrony does TRAIN WRECK AWFUL: here is a device that can do extreme college level math (standard deviation, not simple addition here) and it limits you to a 10-shot string.

10 shots! Have you got a potentially great load, and a low SD interests you? Well here is the CHRONY, where 10 shots is the limit of it’s ability.

If I had a load that looked good, I’d want 30 or 50 shots. Sample size! But if you have a CHRONY, sorry bout your luck.

...over the Chrono pretty much showed that the Chrono is doing it's job. Gotta be the load or the gun.

My Speer #9 has an extensive section titles "Why Ballisticians get grey". The idea is the the variance between similar guns and even guns of the same make and model have widely varying results in velocity testing. Which means if they use a Colt Python as a test and you have a Colt Python they will unlikely get anywhere near the same readings if one barrel is tight and the other is a bit in the loose side.

They put all the results down in a chart and the spread is pretty amazing.

Of course the '10" test barrel' doesn't correlate to anything in my book.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

You may have a slow barrel, there’s definitely documented cases of a longer barrel shooting slower than a shorter one side by side. Also 4” is probably the bare minimum to make use of a true magnum load in a 357 mag.

Other powders to try would be Accurate #9 which has speers top velocity in a short barrel 357 mag load, and also Alliant 2400.

__________________
-Matt

I had a Chrony about fifteen or more years ago. I nicked it once with a bullet and Chrony repaired or replaced it. The window that you were required to shoot through was very small, though adequate if you're not going to do much chronographing and you only use it infrequently. It's a light duty unit; for continuous work, this was not the machine to have. I eventually threw it away and went back to the Oehler 35P that I've had for thirty years.

Thanks, I'll try the 2400. Hopefully someone, somewhere near me has it in stock.

Dont believe everything on boobtube. Though there are fast & slow revos. I had a Ruger SS, 2 3/4 that was as fast as most 4" guns. I doubt though that you can get 1600fps safely.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

That fireball means that the powder was still doing its job all throughout the process. Not unlike flames out of a funny car all the way down the stretch. Want less flame, you live with less velocity. You want efficiency, don't run top fuel.

I like 296 / H110 in the .44 magnums for maximum velocity, but back when I loaded a lot of .357, I found the slightly faster 2400 seemed to work better. 15.5 grains of 2400 was good for 1200 fps or more out of 4 inch guns with a 158 grain jacketed, with less of a blast and great accuracy. Speer #10 manual recommends between 13.9 and 15.9, for reference.

Like others have said, there are slow guns, and there are fast guns of the same barrel length, and with the same load. And a good, solid crimp does make a difference in velocity.

Back before my chronograph died, I checked a lot of different factory loads in a variety of calibers and guns, and not many ever reached advertised velocity. Once in a while one would, or even slightly exceed published speeds, but not very often.

Larry

What has been stated about fast barrels and slow barrels is absolutely true. That Dan Wesson 15-2 that I used to work up H110 loads was my first revolver. I had an 8 inch and a 6 inch barrel for it. Of course, the 8 inch barrel provided the highest velocities, but then I bought one of those newfangled (at the time) Ruger GP-100's with a 6 inch barrel. I was surprised to find that the velocity for several loads in that GP-100 exceeded those from the 6 inch DW barrel and were darned close to what I was getting with the 8 inch DW barrel. Given that the Ruger was stainless, just about as accurate as and provided ballistics that equaled or exceeded what I was getting with the Dan Wesson, I parted company with the Dan Wesson.

By the way, many years later I acquired another Dan Wesson 15-2 and I have no intention of parting with it. There is just something about that blued carbon steel, phenomenal SA trigger, and user changeable barrels that draws me to them.

__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA

H110 , 357 magnum , 4 inch barrel is not the best combo ...
H110 is on the slow burning side for the 4 inch barrel length.

But if H110 is all you have ... magnum primer and heavy crimp and do the best you can ... a few FPS faster or slower , is in my mind, not as important as accuracy .
An accurate load beats a faster load Seven Ways to Sunday .
After this shortage thing ... try some Accurate Arms Powders like #7 and #9 in those magnum loads with 4 inch barrel ...they may be better suited .
Gary

__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member

So I guess I need to explain. I good, properly set up Chrono doesnt lie. Without a chrono you have no idea what your ammo is actually doing. When working with components not in the book, they are invaluable. Again, you have to understand the data, but to say its a toy, not for the learned, no, a useful tool.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

It’s off topic, but I would feel deprived without a chronograph. That doesn’t mean everyone needs one, but I get a lot of use from mine.

I pretty much reserve H110 for my Henry 357 rifle with 20 inch barrel. Very consistent velocities and very, very accurate. 1700 fps at near max load. Shooting my 66 with hot H110 loads is unpleasant. Reducing the load of H110 to reduce kick doesn't result in good accuracy for me.

A2400 loads are more pleasant to shoot in my 66 and 629, and also give consistent results with good accuracy. YMMV of course.

__________________
What could possibly go wrong?

Sorry for mathematical topic drift from H110, but why not simply calculate SD if the chronograph won't handle a large sample size. Write down every velocity, add them up, and divide by the number of shots to find the average (mean) velocity. Subtract mean velocity from from the velocity of each shot and square the difference. Add up all the squared differences and extract the square root of the sum. Perhaps a bit tedious, but you can use whatever sample size you want. Totally agree that SD is the variable to be heeded, and a large sample size indicates a more accurate SD, but how accurate does SD need to be to indicate a consistent load? An ammunition company might say it's hundreds or thousands of rounds. Amateur handload developer banging rounds at today's prices? Maybe not so much. Probability and statistics are on your side after 10 rounds. A hot barrel might start to distort the SD.

Question for chronograph owners: How does a chronograph fail? Somewhere in its innards there is an oscillator, probably digital that is accurate and stable beyond our needs. So what goes wrong? The sensors? It appears to me that if the chronograph captures two bullet passages and is able to compute a time difference from oscillator events, it should either be exactly right or a gross, total failure.

Well I guess I'm the guy thats different here . Because I have shot more H-110 / W296 out of my 357's , 4 " barrel than any other length barrel . I have always used it when shooting my 180 gr cast bullet . I use the max load ( current load data ) . For years I shot those in my K-frame 357 , 4 " barrel . It's still as tight today as the day I bought it . Regards Paul

I dumped H110 and made some Hodgdon Longshot loads today with 357 Magnum. Huge improvement over h110. 8.5 grains of longshot with a 180 grain xtp using a small pistol magnum primer, and I averaged 1,161 fps across 5 shots. Between this and 357 Sig, I feel like Longshot is the perfect small pistol magnum powder for short barrel guns.

Uh, Hodgdons published MAX with an 180gr Nosler Partition and Longshot is 7.2 gr @ 1,167 out of a 10" barrel... Pressure shown as 41,700 CUP.

Something here doesn't make sense to me as I can't believe there is THAT MUCH difference between that Nosler and a 180 gr XTP...?

Unless...?

The muzzle blast from the .357 may be interfering with the Chrono. If it is try moving the chrono away from the muzzle a few more feet.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The so called failure is at the screens. Set them up properly in good light, good screens, they just work.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Test platforms. I have 5 diff 4" 357mags. With identical loads vel variation can be 125fps from slowest to fastest. Revos just have great variables.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Rule #1 for reloaders.................

Loading manuals speak with "Forked tongue" !!

No two a like weapons will have the same fps.

Numbers don't lie....................
yes your loads are lower than what the Ammo makers state.

Gee, what a surprise.

Enjoy the new chrony.

It wasn't necessarily the chronographed performance (only) I was referring to...

fredj338's 8.5 gr Longshot vs. Hodgdons 7.2 MAX ?

Cheers?

No, the difference is the barrel length. With 10 inches you get far, far more burn and pressure out of the powder compared to just 4 inches, and so you need more powder at 4 inches to get equivalent pressure/burn. I checked the brass at 8.5 grains, no sticking to the cylinder and the case head looked fine. That was thrice shot brass too.

I would try loading some up with 16 gr instead of 17.5 and see what you get. I've found that sometimes you get to the point when adding more powder, that velocity actually decreases at a point. H110/W296 likes a firm crimp for best ignition too. Was the 158 grainer jacketed or plated?

10 shot strings are the minimum required for statistical relevance.
You need to make many 10 shots strings and average the results.
Also test the load in different temperature extremes summer & winter.

If a reloader only cares about creating a the most accurate handload then a chrono is not a required piece of reloading equipment.
But if the reloader is always wondering what his MV is then he a chronograph should be his second purchase, right after acquiring a library of reloading manuals.

Too bad the Shooting Chrony company closed.

H110 was designed for 410 shotguns and 44-45 caliber heavy loads.

It’s always interesting to me that H110 seems to work OK in the .410 at about 12,000 PSI but we are cautioned not to reduce it much in the .44, below say 30,000 PSI. I’m sure there’s a logical explanation but I’ve never heard it.

I’ve read that to help H110 to be a slow burning powder, the granules have been well coated with a flame deterrent. This makes it hard to light which is why magnum primers are specified in the reloading manual recipes.
The deterrent coating also makes this powder difficult to keep lit, so squib shots are a real possibility with reduced charge weights that reduce close packed density of the powder charge prior to primer ignition.
Also a good crimp is always recommend it keeps the powder bunched a little longer to assist most the granules start to burn before they are separated as they get blown into the expanding space behind the bullet.
It’s in this expansion space the granules burn engulfed in red hot plasma still burning and still building pressure which make the high velocity the slow burning powders provide along with fire ball at the muzzle.

Totally agree! I actually use 3N38 for all of my 357 short-barrel loads for the very same reason, and they are quite stout. Excellent accuracy.