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  #1  
Old 01-01-2021, 05:55 PM
raljr1 raljr1 is offline
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Default Titegroup for 357

My brother has a lb of Titegroup and wants us to load some 357 magnum with it. When I look in the load books for 158 gr SJHP and 158 gr SLWC it appears that the load recommended for the jacketed bullets, just under 6 grains, only generates about 1100 fps, which seem slow to me. I have been loading 14.6 gr ww296 that the same books list velocity at 1400 fps. Are there any concerns using Titegroup for the 357 with either of those bullets? any concern of how little powder is in the case?

Are there other calibers for which Titegroup is better suited?

Of course I will reference my 4 different manuals to decide which load, but counsel on the above questions is appreciated.

And I just noted that the Hogdon site specifies magnum primers. He has those so maybe that makes all the difference?
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:34 PM
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Titegroup is a medium powder (think .38 Special) and you can load all the .357 you want, but only at "midrange" speeds as shown in the Hodgdon charts. You do not need magnum primers for Titegroup, but Hodgdon arbitrarily chose it for loading .357, which is OK but not necessary. The primer choice is based on the powder, not the case it is in. I use only SPP for Titegroup.
Titegroup is one of the most popular powders for action pistol competition in .38, 9mm and .40 S&W. It will not produce true magnum velocity in .357 cases nor would I expect it to. On the other hand, it is much more pleasant to shoot in short barrels, without the horrendous blast and fireball of 296.
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:38 PM
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Titegroup is a fast powder that works well for modest velocity and good accuracy. I use it in 38 Special and 32 H&R.

W296/H110 is a slow powder that works well for max velocity and power. It makes for a lot of blast and noise too. Usually magnum primers are recommended for it.

Pushing the fast powder to do the work of a slow powder isn't a good idea. An overcharge or double charge of a fast powder like Bullseye or Titegroup can destroy a gun.

Each has their uses and good points. I suggest loading a few of each and see what you like.

Sometimes I like to try some real hot and heavy loads but the charm wears off after a cylinder or two.
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
It will not produce true magnum velocity in .357 cases nor would I expect it to.
Thank you. I think I'll suggest we use something else for the 357s and save the Titegroup for 38, 32 and maybe 45 acp

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Old 01-01-2021, 06:46 PM
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I don't see the need for anything near max loads when most or what we do is kill paper and tin cans....we might load up some heavier stuff for 44 mag for hunting...

Robert
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:47 PM
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Titegroup is on the order of Bullseye, which is a fast powder that does really well with light target loads and has lots of data out there, for this use.

Chamber pressures will go to Maximum before you get a full load in most calibers but both will usually get a "Full" standard load out of most calibers, with a maximum load of powder, that I have used over the years.

Have fun and stay safe.
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Old 01-01-2021, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by raljr1 View Post
I don't see the need for anything near max loads when most or what we do is kill paper and tin cans....we might load up some heavier stuff for 43 mag for hunting...

Robert
I'm familiar with 41 mag, and 44 mag, but not 43 mag
I'm sure you meant 41 mag or 44 mag, but I'm not sure which.
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Old 01-01-2021, 07:00 PM
raljr1 raljr1 is offline
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I'm sure you meant 41 mag or 44 mag, but I'm not sure which.
Fat fingers
....fixed

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Old 01-01-2021, 07:30 PM
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From my experience when using Titegroup in 357 mag's with small PP's you loose 35 - 50 fps velocity - everything else being equal. This has been my experience from actual Chronograph results.

As far as Tightgroup powder goes, I find it excellent for use in both 38 Spl. as well as 357 Mag's. While I usually use W231 in 45acp, if and when I'm out of the W231, Titegroup will work for those as well. Also good for 9mm.
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Old 01-01-2021, 07:56 PM
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A max published load of Titegroup in .357 Magnum:

WILL NOT EVER:
用roduce the velocity of the proper powder
用roduce the recoil/feel of the proper powder
用roduce the familiar sound of the proper powder

WILL ALWAYS:
用roduce the SAME PEAK PRESSURE as the proper powder for a true magnum load

用roduce a pressure curve that is spiky and nasty at/over max where a proper powder is linear and predictable

If you really want to use Titegroup in a magnum revolver round, it is serviceable for light loads that do not act or feel like the full blown capability of the caliber. This is absolutely fine, but max loads of Titegroup is all the stress, far more risk and nowhere near the payoff and result of using the proper powder.

Why do folks choose Titegroup in magnum revolver rounds? It痴 because there is load data for it. And because it seems 兎conomical. It is penny wise and pound foolish.

A max published load of H110 in .357 Magnum makes a full, fiery top-tier load. And if somehow you edged past max, even though you barely have room to do so (BARELY) you might see a little sticky extraction, maybe your brass gets hammered a little bit. Your loads will go a little faster.

A max published load of Titegroup in .357 Max will get you like 75% of the ability of the caliber with all of the same peak pressure. And if you accidentally go higher (and you have three times the open space to do so) you can peel back your revolver like a blooming onion from Outback Steakhouse. Maybe lose an eyeball too.

For a load that won稚 feel, act, sound or perform like a round of .357 Magnum factory ammo.
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:10 PM
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Sevens: Please, don't sugar-coat it! Tell us how you REALLY feel!

Cheers!

P.S. For these exact reasons (or opinion, or recommendation, or whatever?) I have never used this powder. It must have SOME redeeming quality, perhaps not-so-much in 357 Magnum...?
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Old 01-01-2021, 08:21 PM
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Yeah, Sevens. I already figured that 296 or 231 are better for this application. Brother does not reload and probably someone told him this was a good all around powder. I did notice that pressures we much higher with Titegroup than other powders. Thanks...

Robert
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Old 01-01-2021, 11:00 PM
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I have loaded and shot thousands of .357 Magnum rounds with Titegroup. I load 4.5 grains with a Berrys plated 158 grain round nose bullet. In fact I won our club pin shoot this year shooting these out of a Model 627 Pro Series 4" gun. It's a fantastic load that's easy on the gun and the shooter. Just cleaned the brass and reloaded last summers rounds.
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Old 01-01-2021, 11:24 PM
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It's too fast a powder for magnum loads. Use 2400 for mag stuff, your Titegroup for 38spl, 9mm, 45acp
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Old 01-02-2021, 12:04 AM
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Wouldn稚 be my 1st 2nd or even third choice for tall mag case. It痴 too dense, too fast powder. I don稚 think you壇 be able to identify double charge visually in that case.


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Old 01-02-2021, 06:12 AM
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Default One thing about Titegroup.....

Well,two things. A little goes a long way. That can be a problem because it is easy to double charge fast powders because they barely fill the bottom of the case.

I shoot everything in my .357 from target load .38s to full bore magnum, all in .357 brass. You are right however in that you need a magnum powder to get the most out of a .357 but Titegroup can be useful, too. It wouldn't hurt to load up a few rounds while you are at it to test it out.
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Old 01-02-2021, 06:43 AM
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I use Titegroup in 38spl, 9mm and 45acp and it works fine, but like most others said it is not for magnum type performance. Jim.
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Old 01-02-2021, 11:10 AM
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I use Tightgroup in 38sp, 357mag, 45ACP, and 45LC for range use. They always go bang, I only charge one case at a time set the bullet on the case and then seat it. I can see the problem in using this powder in a progressive press but in a slow single stage and taking your time, paying attention to detail lowers the risk to near zero. I like it because it cleans up nicely both guns and cases, and I get a lot of rounds per pound.

The risk in reloading will never be zero, and the same could be said for new ammo as well, it's all about quality control.
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Old 01-02-2021, 11:26 AM
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I worked up a load for .357 using 180gr lead “pug nose” Missouri Bullets and Titegroup that works really well. I was searching for a load for ranch use that wouldn’t split my ear drums if I had to take a shot without hearing protection. No where near max velocity but suitable for pest elimination.

With that said I rarely carry .357’s.

Dan
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Old 01-02-2021, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iouri View Post
Wouldn稚 be my 1st 2nd or even third choice for tall mag case. It痴 too dense, too fast powder. I don稚 think you壇 be able to identify double charge visually in that case.


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Most double charges come from a loading system that had a interruption, hitch in the action, a jam or something out of order, while loading.

I "Stop the Bus" when this happens and double or even tripple check all cases to make sure things are "A-ok" before continuing.

There is nothing wrong with dumping out the powder in cases and starting all over, if in doubt, for your safety.

Distractions or being interrupted by people is the #1 way to mess up.

Stay safe.
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:33 AM
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I haven't been loading for very long, but my process is thus.

I dry tumble the cases

I size and remove primers on all cases.

I use a hand held tool to install primers, again all cases

I flare the all the cases.

I use an electronic scale to measure the powder load, put the powder in a single case and seat the bullet.

I never have more than one charge of powder at one time, and once i pick the case up to charge it, it doesn't get set down until the bullet is seated.

I know there are faster ways of doing this'but for my purposes this works...i had trouble with the primer feed on the turret press' so I went to hand priming...i also have zero confidence in the powder measure so I went to a Hornady unit that auto measures. I use a second small digital scale to verify charges every so often.

I use my turret press as a single stage press...the first 100 i loaded I rotated that darn turret 400 times and decided that was a pain.

Robert
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:03 PM
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One of the most dense powders and the color of case soot - responsible for a lot of blow ups. So you definitely need ro understand your reloading approach, especially how to cause and detect double-charges.

Titegroup has a very wide and linear load range. It would not be my first choice for 357mag.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:24 PM
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The turret press convenience aspect comes into play (for me, at least) when I'm loading up a small number of test loads... Say a dozen, or so.

Easy to complete all the reloading steps with finished rounds, then move on to, for example, a different powder charge (or even a different powder entirely) without having to set/reset the various dies.

For "normal" production I use the single stage much like raljr1... For the most part.

Cheers!
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Old 01-05-2021, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dla View Post
Titegroup has a very wide and linear load range. It would not be my first choice for 357mag.
I知 not following you.

As a matter of fact, Titegroup has just about THE shortest powder charge range from start to max and Titegroup has likely the single LEAST linear pressure curve of any powder on the market.

Where a slow burning magnum powder builds pressure in a predictable fashion, Titegroup goes from start to max to blown up with very little warning.
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Old 01-05-2021, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
I知 not following you.

As a matter of fact, Titegroup has just about THE shortest powder charge range from start to max and Titegroup has likely the single LEAST linear pressure curve of any powder on the market.

Where a slow burning magnum powder builds pressure in a predictable fashion, Titegroup goes from start to max to blown up with very little warning.
Nope.
Titegroup is very well behaved from mild to wild which is a big part of it's popularity. You should try some sometime and see for yourself. My only beef with Titegroup is that it very dense, the color of case soot, and very hard to spot a double charge. Well I guess I've got one other beef with it - the combustion temp is high enough to vaporize lead and deposit it on cylinder faces - only powder I've used thst will do that.
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Old 01-05-2021, 04:08 PM
S&WIowegan S&WIowegan is offline
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Exclamation

TiteGroup is not a "bad" powder but it is very dangerous to handloaders who get distracted. A shooting buddy who is a very successful owner of his own business purchased one of the first S&W 627 8-shooters. He loaded his ammo with Titegroup and somehow managed to load a double charge(Dillon 650). He was shooting a local IPSC-style match when the whole top of his cylinder plus the top strap blew sky-high. No injuries occurred except to pride. None of the pieces were found even though many of us searched. My friend went home and pulled 21 bullets out of his ammo and all weighed correctly. He talked to S&W and argued it was metallurgical failure. They said "NOT"! and refused to even sell him a 627 but did offer him a 625 at dealer cost. I personally have no doubt he loaded a double charge. The point is a mistake like that with TiteGroup will destroy your gun!
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Old 01-05-2021, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
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You should try some sometime and see for yourself.
The next pound of Titegroup that I finish will be my 7th pound of this powder. I致e experienced Titegroup in .32 Long, .327 Federal, .380 Auto, 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and in .44 Magnum and possibly in other places I don稚 recall at the moment.

Everything I wrote in post #10 is true.
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Old 01-05-2021, 05:34 PM
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The next pound of Titegroup that I finish will be my 7th pound of this powder. I致e experienced Titegroup in .32 Long, .327 Federal, .380 Auto, 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and in .44 Magnum and possibly in other places I don稚 recall at the moment.

Everything I wrote in post #10 is true.
You can load 158gr 357mag from 2.5gr to 10+gr - poofter to normal. Very wide load range.
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Old 01-06-2021, 04:47 AM
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My chronograph shows that 5.7 grs of Titegroup and a so called “magnum” load of 14.5 grs of 296 with a 158 gr cast SWC yields about the same 1,050 FPS out of a 4” Mod 28-2.
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