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  #1  
Old 01-14-2021, 02:20 PM
madsweeney madsweeney is offline
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soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs  
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Default soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs

I have several hundred 125 grain JHPs (think they are Remington). I also have arthritis in my shootin' hand. Trying to come up with a not-too-brutal load for general shooting in my 6" 586. Tried 6 grains of 231 - TOO mild, dirty, not particularly accurate. Want to get something like 1150 - 1250 fps. A lot of the published starting loads are faster than that
Powders I have:
231
H110 (probably too hot @ min load?)
296 "
4227
700X
800X
AA7
W540
Any suggestions would be appreciated
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:42 PM
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You will find an accurate load for a 125 jhp with 4227. Back it off a grain from a max charge. I use it in my 19-3 at 50 yards.

Last edited by 4barrel; 01-14-2021 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 01-14-2021, 02:53 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs soft(ish) loads for 357 125 gr. HPs  
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Hodgdon's has load data for most of your listed powders . Don't get scared off looking at the velocity listed . It was shot out a 10 " test barrel . You will easily loose 200 fps in your 6 " 586 , due to 4 " shorter barrel and barrel to cylinder gap . They list 7.3 as the minimum with 231 . Near max load of 700X might work as well . Take a look , decide for yourself . Good luck , Regards Paul
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Old 01-14-2021, 03:21 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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The older IMR load data for the 125gr Remington SJHP for 800-X was 10.2 gr @ 1,360 fps out of a 6" barrel with a C.O.L. of 1.580"

That's one you could gradually load up (or down?) to to suit your intended use?

Cheers!
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Old 01-14-2021, 04:12 PM
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I can tell you that H110/W296 are not at all suitable for loads reduced more than 5% from maximum. Hodgdon and Winchester warn against reduced loads with this powder and for good reason.
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Old 01-14-2021, 04:38 PM
SW Gun Guy SW Gun Guy is offline
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Good luck finding the powder, but loads with Trail Boss, Titegroup and Clays would be right up your alley. Hogdens should have low velocity (and I know they have subsonic) loads for a 357 I would guess.
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Old 01-14-2021, 04:54 PM
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You might also use 38 cases loaded with a light +P loading if you don't
mind shooting the short case in the 357 cylinder.

A 38 special full load of 800-x in my 6" gave me 1050 fps.

A max load of w231 in the 357 with a 125 JHP does around 1245 fps but
it can be down loaded to 1050 fps, which is only 200 fps, without any problems, I would think.

Good luck.
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Old 01-15-2021, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madsweeney View Post

Powders I have:
231
H110 (probably too hot @ min load?)
296 "
4227
700X
800X
AA7
W540
Any suggestions would be appreciated
You are correct to cross off H110/W296 right off the bat. They don't download well.

Of the ones listed I've only used 231 & never really warmed to it.

Slower powder will generally yield a "softer" recoil & higher velocity. Look 'em up on a burn rate chart.
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Old 01-15-2021, 02:45 PM
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Use a max load with w231 or upper midrange with the aa#7. Dont care at all for 800x unless you like weighing charges.
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Old 01-15-2021, 02:52 PM
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If you check older loading manuals, you can use HS-6 data for your Winchester 540 powder. It is a good mid-range .357 Magnum powder, and Speer No. 12 manual shows a starting charge of 10.0 gr for 1,009 FPS and a maximum of 11.3 gr. for 1,124 FPS. They also recommend a magnum primer.
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Old 01-15-2021, 03:26 PM
madsweeney madsweeney is offline
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Was going to start with 4227 but my can (circa 1990) smells REALLY bitter - I think it's turned to fertilizer.
Loaded up 20 rounds of 10.6 grains of AA7 and 20 rounds of 10.5 grains W540. Hopefully the weather will permit some range time soon.
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Old 01-15-2021, 04:19 PM
madsweeney madsweeney is offline
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I used AA7, but that particular powder doesn't meter very consistently through a 30 year old Lee Autodisk. Throw weights seemed to vary about +/- .2 grains. I went to using a trickler, but this time of the year my shop has about 35% RH, so the static was making the powder dance! Wasn't sure if it was the powder measure or the scale that was varying, so I brought out my 60+ years old Redding beam scale which matched my digital so . . . W540 metered very consistently - well within the resolution of my scales. I might need to get a new dispenser. I have 5 Lyman 55's that I use for black powder, but I've never been happy with them for smokeless pistol. I have a 1980's vintage Ohaus that requires an engineering degree to setup and three hands to operate. I had a Lyman 1200 automatic dispenser until it started smoking - figured I might want to unplug it quick and never plug it in again. Maybe it's time for me to update to the 21st century . . .
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Old 01-15-2021, 04:48 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Lightbulb But... But...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Use a max load with w231 or upper midrange with the aa#7. Dont care at all for 800x unless you like weighing charges.
Don't you like weighing your charges? I will use a LEE scoop into the OHAUS pan & trickle a bit (if needed?) and still triple-check every 10-12 loads on a small digital scale just to make sure IFF it is a load that I'm 1st testing out or that I'm concerned about (either low-ball or HIGH)...

CHEERS!

P.S. I've never used 800-X with a powder drop ("meters like CORNFLAKES!") so I'm not prejudiced against it (or 700-X): actually it is a great powder in some applications & pretty versatile for the most part.
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Old 01-16-2021, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
Don't you like weighing your charges? I will use a LEE scoop into the OHAUS pan & trickle a bit (if needed?) and still triple-check every 10-12 loads on a small digital scale just to make sure IFF it is a load that I'm 1st testing out or that I'm concerned about (either low-ball or HIGH)...

CHEERS!

P.S. I've never used 800-X with a powder drop ("meters like CORNFLAKES!") so I'm not prejudiced against it (or 700-X): actually it is a great powder in some applications & pretty versatile for the most part.
You wont get 2/10gr accuracy with a dipper & 800x. It's just not a powder I care for when there are dozens of other choices.
I bought a # because the 10m guys were so excited about it but it just doesnt do anything particularly well in 10mm for me.
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Old 01-16-2021, 08:29 AM
madsweeney madsweeney is offline
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I have a 2007 Hodgdon Basic Reloader's Manual (the free one, not the big book). Not only does it not have any 357 loads for 700X or 800X, nowhere in the entire publication are either of these powders mentioned
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Old 01-16-2021, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishslayer View Post
You are correct to cross off H110/W296 right off the bat. They don't download well.

Of the ones listed I've only used 231 & never really warmed to it.

Slower powder will generally yield a "softer" recoil & higher velocity. Look 'em up on a burn rate chart.
Well...no.

At any given velocity, a slower burning powder will weigh more than a faster burning powder producing the same velocity. That's an artifact of the powder being slower burning.

The problem then is that the powder also has mass, and that mass (whether still in solid unburned/partially burned form or as a gas) exits the barrel at about 3 times the velocity of the bullet. That creates a large and disproportionate increase in recoil.

Let's look at a 125 gr JHP on top of 8.4 grains of Unique producing about 1100 fps in a 6" 40 oz revolver (S&W Model 66, Model 19, etc):

Charge Weight: 8.4 gr Muzzle Velocity: 1300.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 2.5 lb Bullet Weight: 125.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 11.5 ft/s Recoil Energy: 5.2 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 0.9 lb•s


Now let's look at a load with the same bullet producing the same velocity in the same revolver, but using a slower burning powder, 16.2 grains of 2400 in this case:

Charge Weight: 16.2 gr Muzzle Velocity: 1300.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 2.5 lb Bullet Weight: 125.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 13.6 ft/s Recoil Energy: 7.2 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.1 lb•s

----

The heavier charge of 2400 results in:
- an 18% increase in recoil velocity;
- a 38% increase in recoil energy; and
- a 22% increase in recoil impulse.

There is absolutely nothing softer about the recoil with that slower burning powder. All it gets you is more recoil, with no gain in velocity.

If you increase the burn rate a bit with 13.2 grains of Blue Dot it's a bit better, but still not nearly as low recoil as Unique.

Charge Weight: 13.2 gr Muzzle Velocity: 1300.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 2.5 lb Bullet Weight: 125.0 gr
Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 12.8 ft/s Recoil Energy: 6.4 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.0 lb•s

Last edited by BB57; 01-16-2021 at 10:27 AM.
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2021, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madsweeney View Post
.../

/...Trying to come up with a not-too-brutal load for general shooting in my 6" 586. Tried 6 grains of 231 - TOO mild, dirty, not particularly accurate. Want to get something like 1150 - 1250 fps. A lot of the published starting loads are faster than that
Powders I have:
231
H110 (probably too hot @ min load?)
296 "
4227
700X
800X
AA7
W540
Any suggestions would be appreciated
The Sierra 3rd edition shows a minimum load of 12.5 grains of "No.7" producing 1250 fps in a 6" Trooper with their 125 gr JSP and JHC bullets. (Max load is listed as 13.7 grains).

The Hornady 9th edition shows a minimum charge of 10.5 grains of "Accurate No. 7" with their 125 gr XTP giving 1250 fps in an 8" Python. (Max load is 11.5 grains and 1400 fps.)

Disclaimer: Note the massive discrepancy in the data, with the *minimum* charge in the Sierra data being 1 full grain above the *maximum* charge for the Hornady data.

Why might that be? There are a number of possible reasons:

1) Bullets, even bullets of the same weight and diameter differ in their "stickiness" in the bore due to difference in their;
- bearing surface;
- jacket alloy composition;
- jacket thickness; and
- core alloy composition;

2) Test firearms vary;

3) Pressure testing methods vary;

4) Powder varies from lot to lot;

5) in some cases powder manufacturing methods and chemical composition change over time; and

6) what were considered to be safe pressures have generally decreased over time - probably due to an overabundance of ambulance chasing attorneys.

Time is a probable issue here as the Sierra 3rd edition dates to January 1989. Unfortunately, new editions of reloading manuals place a lot more emphasis on newer powders (otherwise there is not much need for new editions), so you have to rely on older manuals at times to find loads using older powders.

The moral you need to take away when reading the huge differences in the data is that it's always important to be conservative, start in the middle and work up or down to the extremes, watching for pressure signs, sticking cases, and/or signs of pressure spikes (high SD, inconsistent velocity, or ignition, etc.)

That goes double anytime you start swapping components and deviate from what is specified in the manual.

-----

The Hornady 9th edition also lists loads for IMR 700x and 800x for the .38 Special fired in a 4" Model 15.

They list a range of 4.0 to 5.0 grains for 700x with velocities of 800-950 fps, with the 5.0 grain load listed as a +P load (anything above 4.7 should be treated as +P).

They list a range of 5.6 to 7.5 grains for 800x with velocities of 800-1050 fps, with 7.1 and 7.5 grain loads listed as +P loads (anything above 6.8 grains should be treated as +P).

The Hornady 9th edition also lists Win 231 in their .38 Special data.

They list a range of 4.8 to 5.7 grains for 231 with velocities of 800-950 fps, with the 5.7 grain load listed as a +P load (anything above 5.4 grains should be considered +P).

I added this last one for comparative purposes as you stated 231 was too mild and too dirty. However if 950 fps was too mild, that'll rule out 700x (although it would be cleaner).

*** Another disclaimer, don't use any of the suggested data without verifying it from your own original sources. There's always the potential for a typo and the data isn't complete (primer and case used, etc.)
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Old 01-16-2021, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madsweeney View Post
I have a 2007 Hodgdon Basic Reloader's Manual (the free one, not the big book). Not only does it not have any 357 loads for 700X or 800X, nowhere in the entire publication are either of these powders mentioned
I can't speak to 2007, but Hodgdon discontinued 800X in 2020.

That's unfortunate as it was my favorite powder for .38+P loads.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:53 AM
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Am another user of AA-7 for mid velocity 357 125 gn mag loads. Use it with Fed sp mag primers, and get extremely good accuracy with Win soft nose hp, or Hdy xtp. It throws very nicely from RCBS powder measure, but frankly have never measured enough throws to develop statistically relevant statistics.
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Old 01-16-2021, 02:36 PM
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I have, many times, used 38 Special data when I want "soft shooting" loads for my 357 Magnum. Yes the velocities will be lower than listed because of the larger case capacity, but I have never had a bullet stick in the barrel of my 4" 357 using low/starting loads of 38 data. W231, 700X and 800X are listed in my Hornady manual and IMR 4227 (+P) in my older Speer manual for 125 gr JHPs in 38 Special...

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Old 01-16-2021, 02:45 PM
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My go to load for CCW in all my .357's is a 125 Hornady XTP over 7.2 grains of Unique. I don't have a chronograph so I can't tell you the velocity, but it shoots well and is easy on the gun and the shooter.

I initially came up with if for my 640 Pro, but now I carry it in my K and L frames too.

I refer to it as a .357 -P!
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Old 01-16-2021, 02:53 PM
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10.5 grs of W540 (HS-6) in my 686 6" does around 1270 fps.

A full load of HS-6 with a wspm does 1430 fps in my revolver.
If you want to get rid of it, a full load of 4227 might get up to 1230 fps.

1221 fps with w231 works in my 6" barrel for good acc/poa.

Have fun.
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Old 01-16-2021, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
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You might also use 38 cases loaded with a light +P loading if you don't
mind shooting the short case in the 357 cylinder.
Been loading 38+p in .357 cases for like ever... never a problem.
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Old 01-16-2021, 04:25 PM
madsweeney madsweeney is offline
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These are just paper punching loads I'm after. I suppose I could use 38 brass for really light loads, but . . . it's a 357 - if I wanted to shoot 38s I'd buy a different gun.
For PD rounds I use store-bought - 180 grain Black Talons. Not sure I'd want to spend a day at the range shooting them, even if they didn't cost a gajillion dollars a round.
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Old 01-17-2021, 02:00 PM
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With a 357 case in my Lyman and Speer books with a 125 SP ;

The HS-6 powder starts out at 1170 fps
4227...………………………………….. 1230
AA7 ………………………………………. 1270
H110 …………………………………….. 1350

so your quest for a light load is doable, just that you need to try some starting loads and see what your weapon likes.

I usually try to start with a powder that I have a LOT of...…….
just in case I get lucky.

Have fun.

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Old 01-17-2021, 05:35 PM
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The Hodgdon data for 231 says 7.3 is the starting load. I would up your load a bit.
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