I’m attempting to replicate Underwood Xtreme Defender .38 special but I do not have load data so I am having to guess.

I have loaded 100 grain Lehigh Defense Extreme Defense bullets in all my test rounds, just like the Underwood Extreme defender

My cartridge overall length is just over 1.5 with the bullet seated in the cannelure.

Brass and primers are Remington, I had to take down target rounds due to the primer shortage.

My test rounds are 7.8 grains of Ram Shot True Blue, 8.3 grains of the same powder, and 8.9 grains of the same powder.

The test revolver is a Model 10-6 with the factory 4.2 inch heavy barrel, mine dates to 1977-1978.

Are my test loads safe or is that too much pressure?

You're too hot.
The closest thing that the Western Powders load data shows are couple of 110gr bullets (no 100gr).
One of them shows a 5.6gr-6.2gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
The other shows a 6.7gr-7.4gr range for True Blue for 38spl +P.
I know your bullet is 10gr lighter - but at your starting charge of 7.8gr you're above the max for a bullet just a tiny bit heavier.
Where did you get the 7.8gr for a starting load?

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Lehigh Defense lists load data on their site for the bullet. The data they list though is only for standard pressure, I verified that with them over the phone. Their standard pressure numbers stop at 7.5 grains for max pressure (and I want +p) and 7.8 was as close to that as my Lee Auto Disk could get. 8.3 And 8.9 were the next 2 highest settings. I just assumed that if 7.5 was the top end of standard pressure than 10% more would be 8.25, which is almost exactly the 8.3 my powder measure could give me and 7.8 would be somewhere between standard and +p and 8.9 would be the highest I’d risk.

My goal is to match Underwood’s claimed velocity of 1,300 fps. I also called underwood and confirmed that their test barrel was also 4 inches. Lehigh lists 1,055 for 7.5 grains.

Lehigh's page, follow the link on the page for the load data: .357 / 38 Xtreme Defense(R) 100gr Bullet

Yeah, a lot of powders pressure curves don't scale linearly with the quantity of powder, so a 10% increase in powder doesn't necessarily produce a 10% increase in pressure. It may produce 15% or even 20% or more increase in pressure.

The kind of experimenting you're talking about usually falls under the heading of "wildcatting" and is some pretty risky territory. When you get into that kind of experimentation, a powder measure is NOT the right tool to use IMO. They tend to throw within a variable range of +/- .1 gr or more, so your 8.3gr may be 8.2gr or 8.4gr and when you are at the extreme upper end of the range, that is too much variance. If you're going to do it you should be weighing every charge when coloring "outside the lines" like that - to make sure you are getting a precise amount of powder.

I would suggest you start at the 7.5gr upper limit and load two or three at 7.5gr, two or three more at 7.6gr, two or three more at 7.7gr, etc. on up to around 8.0gr - for starters.

Do you have access to a chronograph? If so you can see what kind of increases you get at each step. Keep a close eye on the brass looking for flattened primers, and difficult extraction. I'd also probably shoot them out of one of my 357magnums just to make sure there were no issues. But if the 10-6 is the only thing you have available, it will do, just proceed carefully.

That's the way I'd do it IF I were inclined to do what you are proposing. But I'd be more likely just to buy the Buffalo Bore ammo instead of trying to cook it up myself. Good luck with it.

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Be careful.

My reading from forgotten sources suggest some of the boutique hot
loads use several different powders, with different burn rates, in a
single loading.

Yes, I have a chronograph, a Caldwell Ballistic Precision G2.

I actually thought of Buffalo Bore but their website does not show any cartridges loaded with Xtreme Defense bullets. If I had my drothers I would just buy from Underwood, but they are out of stock and have been for months and I am too impatient to wait months (or years, lets be honest), for them to maybe get more in stock, if they ever do. The only Xtreme Defender stuff I have noticed them make over the last couple of months is some weak sauce standard pressure 90 grain 9mm and some 45 ACP +p (which I bought some of the night it released, that was going to be my next project).

Sounds like you have everything you need. If you do this, just proceed with extreme caution. Like I said, I'd be weighing every charge.

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I understand the goal: I guess I don't understand the exercise..? There is load data from the manufacturer of the bullet using the powder the OP used (and I use it, myself) with a stated Maximum for 38 S&W Special. It is one of many powders listed.

Underwood uses that same 100gr bullet but loads it to 1,200 fps in 38 Special, and to an even higher velocity, 1,300 fps as well. That ammo is listed as +P, however the powder they use is an unknown.

Will merely using more powder than the load data that the bullet manufacturer lists as Maximum generate those same higher velocities SAFELY using the powder the OP used? Will that anticipated result be the same for any or all the other powders listed? As BC38 stated, that 10% more powder could result in 20% more pressure! Or, more...?

What pressure does it take to generate Underwood's numbers? Which powders can actually generate that pressure (again, SAFELY)?

Did the manufacturer not list higher charges in this specific bullet's load data for a reason?

Lehigh lists load data for their 120gr version of the Xtreme Defender for 38 Special, 38 Special +P & 357 Magnum for that bullet. The Maximum True Blue +P load for that 20% heavier bullet is 6.8 gr @1,015 fps and is also listed as subsonic.

Does it follow because an ammunition manufacturer exists (assumedly with access to pressure testing equipment & different powders) who can load to these higher velocities that the OP's 1,300 fps goal can be achieved SAFELY using any of the powders listed in Lehigh's load data?

Lacking reliable pressure information I don't see how...? Be careful, please!

That’s the issue, underwood’s load data is unknown, so I’m literally guessing, hence this thread, so I don’t blow something up.

I selected True Blue simply because it had the highest velocity on Lehigh Defense’s data of the powders I have on hand. As for the velocity focus, the Xtreme Defender bullet performs better in terms of wounding capacity the better the velocity as it doesn’t function as a hollow point but instead uses fluid pressure channeled through the flutes on the bullet and velocity equals pressure, also it’s a solid copper projectile and more criminals where armor these days than before, still unlikely, but I figure it gives it a fighting chance of punching through armor if need be, at least the lightweight stuff.

I did consult Lehigh, they do not have a reason for not listing +p load data, the guy I talked to said they simply have not gotten around to it and that +p load data will be added in the future.

Looking at Western Powder’s data, I am now considering Ram Shot Silhouette at 7.1 grains instead, according to their data, that pushes a 110 grain Sierra to 1,304 fps, which would put me over my goal, I’m assuming a 100 grain Xtreme Defense will go to an even better velocity, however the cartridge overall length will be longer, not to mention the ballistics so I’m not sure. Would it be reasonable to assume that (working up from 6.7 grains) would be a safe load? Even 6.7 grains gives 1,233 fps according to their load data, which is much better than Lehigh Defenses figure, add in a lighter bullet and who knows?

Why will the cartridge overall length now be longer with the Silhouette: you were already loading at 1.500" (at the canelure)? That's longer than the 1.435" in their NEW 8.0 Load Data...

The usual "rule of thumb" is that a powder load for a heavier bullet (of the same basic design) should be OK for a lighter bullet of the same basic design. Since you have a chrono your plan to start at 6.7 gr makes sense to me.

Cheers!

P.S. Thanks for leading me to that 8.0 load data, BTW!

...in a .357 magnum pistol.

Reloaders need a reliable way to test pressure. There are some devices that measure from barrel strain but its not straight data from the chamber.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If You are going to load like that, wear ear and eye protection, and if possible get someone else to fire them.

Or, a long string...?

I meant that the overall length is longer than the load data, it will be the same as my other loads, I.E. at the cannelure.

I have no idea who Underwood is, but get some real load manuals (Lyman for sure), compare data, and proceed from there safely.

Just a polite question for the OP; have you ever reloaded revolver loads before? If this is your first foray into it, I'd suggest you start with mild pedestrian loads for your S&W Model 10 like using 158 grain cast lead semi-wadcutters, or 148 grain cast lead wadcutters, and say Win 231 powder; 3 grains of Win 231 for the wadcutter loads, and 4 grains for the 158 grain SWC. I use Bullseye for such (in different weights of course), but it is terribly easy to double charge unless you are really careful. Just my advice - walk before you run, etc.

First get some underwood ammo and see if it is doing 1300fps out of your gun. You do not know what powder(s) underwood is using, you may be chasing a Unicorn! Just because the box says 1300 does not make it a fact. Be Careful trying to make a high pressure load without the knowledge or equipment, you could end up having to throw bullets with your off hand. Please Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

That's quite a jump in powder. Their high is 7.5 and you go up to 8.9 grains. If trying to produce hot loads pushing the boundaries you really should invest in a powder measure that can adjust in smaller increments.

The 9mm and 357 loads I looked at were more conservative on the Lehigh defense data than Hodgdon with the same bullet wieght.

No I haven’t, and normally I would agree with you however the component shortage has tied my hands. I have no primers, zero, zip, nada, and I absolutely refuse to pay some scalper $250 for a $40 box. Casings and bullets are very tricky to get too. I can’t even find molds to cast my own. I have no components to speak of save for the bullets I ordered from Lehigh Defense, which are now sold out.

For this project, the only thing I was able to do was buy factory target loads and pull the bullets one by one with an inertial puller just to get primed cases. So I unfortunately cannot experiment. I have 100 primed cases and ruined about 4 or 5 of them getting my dies set up (I didn’t realize my powder through expander die was mussing the expander, I had to get Lee to send me a replacement), and 100 Xtreme Defense bullets, plus the 100 FMJs I tore down to get the primed cases, and some true blus and silhouette powder. That’s it. I have no other components. I have a lead melted and and ingot mold too, but bullet molds no longer exist. I have a Lee Pro 1000, a broken bullet feeder, a defective auto disk powder measure that spilled a half pound of true blue on the bench and floor and charged not a single case and a “national metallic” digital scale that has a wandering zero after the first few seconds. I had to measure my charges using dippers and repeated measuring and remeasuring on the ****** scale to make sure the charges were indeed accurate. And an APP press, half of a case trimmer, half a bulge buster kit, a universal decapping die, a set of .45 ACP dies, a set of .38/.357 dies, a shell plate for each, and a bullet puller, that’s it, and a Hornady ultrasonic cleaner and solution, everything else is permanently out of stock unless you want to pay a scalper 10 times the price, or more, assuming even scalpers have the stuff. I bought everything in ernest once I concluded that the ammo shortage was likely permanent or 2+ years long, in the best case scenario.

My next project will be making my own primers from match heads, because that is apparently the only way to get them now for less than the cost of twice the price of a loaded cartridge from a year ago.

FYI, my original plan was a simple single stage kit to get started however those were sold out everywhere I looked, the only press I could find was the Pro 1000 .38/.357 kit from Titan Reloading, save for the APP press, which I got from Midsouth, everything else, even the little C presses were sold out and still are, no backorders. So I am just getting things piece mail as they become available, I figure that this will be the only way to get ammunition for less than $5 a round in the near future, and I’m not even being facetious, wait until this summer/fall, I fully expect to see Wolf 9mm for $250 a box of 50, at the rate we are going, count on it. Panic from the damned virus, made worse by the media, shortage caused by reduced production by said virus, production interrupted by component shortage caused by the production shortage, then panic from the riots, and hoarding due to panic and scalpers, now tell me I’m wrong about $5 a round Wolf 9mm... And that’s not even taking in to account the civil war that is likely to start. Get your reloading gear now, or learn archery and spear throwing...


So no, I can’t make any 158 grain target rounds right now... Once I make enough primers and actually find some 6 cavity bullet molds sure, assuming gun powder still exists, if not, I will have to make black powder too. Hell, I can’t even find wheel weights.

Underwood Ammo no longer exists, believe me, I have checked, it is out of stock everywhere and has no back order, short of finding someone willing to sell me a box, by shear chance, the only thing I have to go by is their published data and youtube videos. They claim 1,300 fps from a 4 inch barrel, I’m just assuming that is correct.

If I could get any of the underwood stuff, and I don’t even need much, I’d be happy with just 2 boxes, I wouldn’t even be bothering with this and would be focussed on “normal” loads instead using established data, like those 158 grains mentioned earlier.

I agree, and I intend to get an auto drum, but it is out of stock and not expected until late next month, assuming it comes at all, in the meantime I don’t even have my auto disk, mine is defective and will need warranty service from Lee. I simply based my charges on what it will throw when it works.

The stores around here are even worse, the Dunhams litterally has bare shelves, save for 12 gauge birdshot, there is **** tons of that, a whole aisle full, plus a pallet, and the gunshop only has Fudd rifle rounds, and only a few boxes of that. If I go further out I can find ammunition, but only obscure stuff, fudd rounds, shotgun shells, and occasionally a couple of boxes of 7.62x39, anything else remotely useful to anyone other than Elmer is gone though, I have to order that stuff. Some 10mm, .454 casul, and .45LC shows up on occasion but I have nothing in those calibers. I’ve been tempted to get the .45LC though just so I can get some large pistol primers to load .45 ACP, but as of yet have not, just too wasteful.

This sounds like a much wiser route to go. If the Silhouette will push a 110gr bullet to 1300fps, then it should get even more velocity out of the 100gr. Given your shortage of components I'd start with the 6.7gr and work up by .2 gr increments. That would give you 3 stepped loads, of 6.7gr, 6.9gr, and 7.1gr covering min to max. Chances are that you're going to hit your velocity target at one of the lower loads. Longer COAL is not an issue provided the rounds fully fit within the cylinder and don't stick out the front of it. Loading to the cannelure is the way to go. Be sure to put a good roll crimp on them into the cannelure. You don't want them jumping crimp under recoil and binding up your cylinder. The fact that they are solid copper means that you don't have to worry about squeezing the diameter down or doing any other damage to the bullets.

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OK, you're looking at data for a published load using a Sierra bullet, which I assume is a cup and core standard bullet. The bullet you want to use is a solid copper bullet. This will have a longer contact patch with the bore (increased bore friction) and the force needed to engrave the rifling in the harder solid copper projectile will be higher. In other words, you're in unknown territory so far as pressure goes, but the wise bet is that the pressure with the LeHigh bullet will be higher. The real question is how much higher. You can't really compare load data from standard bullets with the bullet you intend to use. (Although why you want to be a beta tester for unproven theory is beyond me. Still, it's your choice. If it's the only thing available, I feel your pain.)

Your best bet at this point would be to try LeHigh's standard pressure data and see what velocities you get out of your firearm. Then proceed with extreme caution. I would also regard fantastic velocity claims with extreme suspicion. You are most unlikely to duplicate someone's claimed velocities at safe pressures.

Oh, DO NOT assume that the data sheet charge weight for your powder dispenser is correct. Scale weigh your test loads. Scale weigh 10 or so powder drops and get an average. Hopefully, you may find some safe load that the powder dispenser either matches or comes close to on the lower side.

Frustration I suppose, I can’t buy what I want so I want to make it myself, the test data I have seen makes it look like the most effective self defense load and I want the best so here I am. If I knew it was going to be restocked I would just buy it, but I don’t.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words
SO

I don't want to tell you how to drive your train, but if you are a beginning handloader I hope you will go slow. If you are very careful and wear eyes and ears, you might get through a catastrophic failure unharmed. Your K-frame will probably fail at the locking notch in the cylinder and maybe not get the cylinder and topstrap all at once. Your fine 10-6 is not an N-frame. Please go slowly and don't get yourself hurt. Be safe and be well.............

Edit; I see Steelsaver posted while I was composing.

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

IMO the prudent thing to do is not try this. A shortage is no real reason to risk at best ruining a firearm at worst ruining the owner. Discretion needs to be applied here.

Trying to get max velocity out of a fast burning pistol powder is touchy

exceeding max loads is downright dangerous

Instead of taking advice from strangers on the internet, why not contact them . . .

https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/u...ide8.0_WEB.pdf

"Ramshot powders contact us 913-362-9455"
.
.
Lehigh Defense, LLC (256) 787-1311
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.

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USPSA/IPSC

It may well be true that ammo and reloading supplies are in short supply

But, that hardly justifies risking destruction of one of the firearms you already own by trying to get maximum velocity form an undersized bullet with a fast powder using faulty reloading equipment. Maxing those 100gr bullets to go another 200fps will not make them all that much more lethal. MxV² is fine on paper but it just does not work out on the street. Power is fine accuracy is final. Plus firing one round that might be as dangerous to yourself as your opponent isn't a great plan. It is a poor one. What your trying to do might work and it might well wreck your gun. If you do hit the max load and then your equipment gives you even a little bit more your screwed. If I was going to try this I would use a digital scale go up by very small amounts trying a small group of each level in something heavy duty like a model 28 or a Ruger firing over a chronograph and checking for flat primers and stick ejection

Don't compound the lack of foresight to keep a good stock of ammunition and or components by trying to fix it with extremely risky reloading practices. BTW you can get Lee molds of Ebay and have them in a couple days and lead too. Plus if you go down to the local metal scrap yards they may well have some. If your dire prediction is correct you should be looking at this and reliable simple loads that DON'T RISK YOUR GUN. Tearing down perfectly good target loads to make extremely risky ones isn't a good plan, its a waste of good loads.

If you lived near me I would sell you 100 primers for regular prices.

If you keep going in the direction your headed now, all I see the gun pictured above.

I did, that’s where I got my second set of load data, I switched to Silhouette and loaded 6.7 grains, 6.9 grains, and 7.1 grains.

I have been down this road, and lived to tell about it.

1. Forget your fixed disk powder measure. Going to max you should weigh each charge or at the very least weigh each one until you settle on a load and then get an adjustable measure and make very sure it's throwing correctly.

2. Just because they list load data does not mean they are using any of those powders. They may be using bulk powder that you can't replicate.

3. If I was doing this I'd use the slowest powder they list. You are somewhat less likely to get into trouble vs. the faster powders. The slowest powder is most likely to give you highest velocity with the least pressure.

4.Extrapolating data is extremely dangerous. As previously stated things are not linear. Just treat it like any other load and work your way up.

Usually, I just couldn't quite get there.

I checked ebay and I flat out refuse to pay $150 for a $40 Lee mold from a scalper. Stop buying from scalpers and they will stop. My “lack of foresight” was a lack of budget, even before the panic putting back thousands of rounds was an expensive proposition. I’d thought of reloading before but did not anticipate it getting this bad this soon.

I fully intend to start at the minimum load and work up and have loaded 6 rounds of each charge level to take to the range and will be using a Caldwell G2 Ballistic Precision Chronograph, which I bought specifically for this purpose. And I do use a digital scale, it gives accurate readings however it has an annoying habit of a wandering zero after a few seconds and it doesn’t like to update when powder is only trickled in. To use it, I get close, then pour the powder in an empty case, re zero the scale, then pour the powder out of the casing back on to the scale, then I repeat until it repeats the correct measurement, so I will measure say 7.1 grains, pour off the powder, re zero, then measure the powder again, if it still reads 7.1 I know the measure was accurate the first time, I repeated that process for each round then hand fed the charged cases through my press.

Where do you get that the bullet is undersized? It is made specifically for .38 special, it is light though, is that what you meant?

I’d be happy to test with a .357 magnum if I had one but I don’t, I only have the Model 10, however I know that the 10-6 WAS able to handle .357 magnum if it was chambered for it (at least occasionally) and the models 13 and 19 (at least) used the same frame, so I suspect it can take at least that much pressure.

These loads are specific for daily carry (when I am carrying the revolver), I only intend to make about 50 once I get the load data. My range ammo is just standard low velocity stuff. As for plans to supply myself during the shortage, those indeed will be soft loads, for the reasons you mentioned and also to preserve materials. I plan to load 158 grain cast powder coated bullets over a light to medium powder charge using established load data, and if it gets as nasty as I suspect I will also be using home made primers and home made black powder and range pickup brass so the loads will be very light indeed.

I agree, tearing down loaded rounds is indeed wasteful however it is the only way I can get primers short of making them myself from match heads and since these are intended for defensive carry I will not use an improvised primer, hence why I tore down target rounds to get primed cases. I appreciate the gesture with the primers and I sincerely wish I did live close enough to do that but I don’t. For me to get primers I must either cannibalize loaded rounds, make my own, or pay a scalper, and I refuse to pay a scalper. As far as I’m concerned the scalpers can shove the primers up their buts then sit on a nail. Same reason I won’t buy from Cheaper Than Dirt (you know, if “dirt” is gold and platinum, and “cheaper” is like a penny, “you saved -5000%!”)

I have no idea what you paid for the whizz-bang electronic scale, but a simple magnetically dampened beam scale (and a set of check weights-which you should have bought with the whizz-bang scale) would probably have been cheaper and would certainly be faster to use. Should be a next purchase priority.

As someone noted above, bullet placement is far more important than bullet diameter, shape, velocity, weight and/or sexy design.

Having to pull perfectly good ammo apart to experiment with in todays reloading world isn’t a good idea imo. If you have no components why bother to do this now? Let’s say you achieve your goal but only have a handful of loads built-why bother? And on the other side lets say that you do unfortunately blow the cylinder and destroy the gun and are hurt bad enough to go to the er for treatment exposing yourself and potentially your family to covid. Another bad consequence. Bad timing-bad idea.

I was testing some published, but hot loads, and felt safe using the model 10 before I got the .357. The loading data said the loads were safe in 'strong, modern pistols' and the mod 10 falls into that category.

It came from an old Sierra (read 'hunting' loads) before paranoia set in.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Because I don’t anticipate components becoming available again in the near future, I expect about 2 and a half years, at best, and potentially closer to 10-15. Meanwhile, the situation continues to deteriorate and I would really like to have the most effective defensive ammo possible, preferably before looters start burning the neighborhood.

I do not need many, these are intended specifically for carry ammo, realistically I only require 18 rounds (the cylinder plus 2 speed loaders), however I will make extra for testing, practice, and reserve. Should I require more I will have the load data.

I am not particularly concerned about the virus, provided you are not 70+ the death rate is what? 0.02%? I’m more concerned with the flu It’s so mild 40-60% of people with it never even get symptoms. Where the virus is an issue is the reaction to it.

Your requirements and logic seem skewed to me.

I don't know how much time you have spent in a combat zone. I don't know if you hunt. But I will say, that when it comes to killing things, "Where you shoot them is way more important than what you shoot them with!"

(Tank main gun against troops in the open is a notable exception.)

I won't go into the virus. But I will say I don't care if it was a K frame 357 or a Model 10-6 (BTW I have made 3 model 10s into 357s) it will never ever take the pressures a N frame 357 will shrug off. Your methods are looking to make the one of the worst possible rounds for a K frame. Light fast bullets have been to down fall of even K frame 357s. I would save the ammo I had, keep bidding on a set of molds as you bullet supply is terribly limited anyway. Keep bidding even on single slug molds. I have cast thousands upon thousands with a double. You can cast a big pile of bullets with a single in say 8 hours and no real need to size them if they are close and you don't try to max them out. Plenty of simple formulas to melt in a pan and just stand your bullets in to lube them. Or powder coat them. If you pay $100 for a mold, and you can by 10# of lead with free shipping on Ebay for $35 10x7000+70,000/158g=443 bullets so at $135 for mold and led your first 443 bullets are 30 cents apiece and the rest are what ever the lead cost.

In the real world where people wear real cloths a lead 158 gr bullet is probably going to penetrate better than a 100 gr one.

Your not having any ammo is from your own mistake. covid, the election, riots in the street, so what we had already gone through a big shortage a few years back. Hey , the first thing I did when covid started was order 2000 more rounds of 223 and I already had thousands, lots of powder and primers and even a 22 caliber bullet mold. You did not look ahead well enough. it happens. DON' T make things worse.

besides IF the time really comes a few accurate shots and a good plan will get you more guns and ammo. But 55 gallon drums of gravel and some black powder will work too.

That argument goes the other way too.

I could argue that a .177 BB gun is the best carry gun. Think about it, it has zero recoil, it’s cheap to shoot, cheap to buy, and it’s totally unregulated and can ship to your door (OK, maybe not in certain states, but I’m pretty sure they ban even thinking about guns or self defense, let alone carrying one), all you have to do is shoot them in the eye every time, which is totally doable against a moving target that’s shooting back at you, under stress, in low light, right? But hey shot placement is the only thing that matters and terminal ballistics are irrelevant right?

OK I’m obviously being facetious, but the point is that shot placement IS important, I won’t argue otherwise, but so is the effectiveness of the round. If I could be guaranteed perfect shot placement, to be able to hit them in the eye every time so to speak, I wouldn’t care about bullet performance, I’d just carry FMJ target rounds, hell I’d carry a pocket .22 and call it good, but I can’t. In the real world perfect shot placement can’t be guaranteed, and even if it could, the more damage the better if your life is on the line and if you are shooting someone in defense it presumably is. So I want the most effective round possible.

I don’t care if a were Simo Hayha, I would still want the most effective ammo I could get.

I’m pretty sure I can’t fit an atomic annie in my pocket though so there is obviously a limit, and besides 2 kilotons would probably not be the best choice for a target 7 yards away. But barring that, I at least want the most effective thing that I CAN carry.

Based on my experience, if you want "the most effective thing that I CAN carry" I believe you have chosen the wrong caliber. (and bullet weight)

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Your 10-6 K frame came out in 1962 and the later models were rated for +P and +P+ ammo.

As for that box of 100 gr. Lehigh ammo, be it made by Underwood or any other maker, that list the MV at 1,300 fps......

I just watched a site that tested that ammo in a S&W K frame 4"
and I don't want to bust your "Bubble" but, the 38 special super loads, crossed his chrony sitting at ten feet at...........

1139 fps.

Lehigh printed data shows True Blue maximum at 7.5 grs.

stay safe.

I agree, however this is not the only thing I carry.

My model 10 is for 3 purposes: 1. Carry when I don’t want to bother with a holster, I can just drop it in my pocket, even a 4 inch barrel fits great, or when I’m going somewhere where I can’t carry and I know I will have to leave it in the car. 2. As a backup gun in case of shortage, I would trust a revolver with improvised rounds more than an automatic, and this is the only non .22 revolver I have. 3. Collectability.

My primary carry is something else entirely.

Purchased a few of the Lehigh Xtreme Defense bullets in .355 when they were both actually ON SALE & AVAILABLE(!) from Midway. I load a few in 380acp, 9mm & 357 SIG when I can find components...

Found the Lehigh Load Data Library to be quite informative and included some powders I use. Feel very fortunate.

I will concur that a .177 bb might be a little short on firepower, and don't claim to be so proficient that I can count on "shootin' them IN the whites of their eyes", either?

But I do think these Lehigh solid bullets are designed to adequately penetrate "real world wear" at the velocities available from their load data, which are, for the most part really rollin' right along, velocity-wise: IMHO they represent an effective alternative to JHP's for personal protection, both HD & SD.

Cheers!

I agree, their load data on 9mm looks very good, as does their data for .45 ACP, but their .38 special is lacking, it only lists standard loads for the 100 grain and the 120s seem to be not much more than that, even in +p, especially compared to Western Powder’s data for similar weight projectiles.

I agree with you though about them being better than JHPs, that’s why I’m doing this project.

Looking on the Lehigh website, those powder weights should be just fine with Silhouette, since they are within the range of their load data, so go for it. But like has been preached to you by multiple other folks here, don't try to extrapolate powder data beyond the listed data like you were going to do with the True Blue. Some powders get very erratic at the top end of listed loads and a .2 grain increase in load might give you 1,000 or 2,000 psi more or it might give you a 10,000 psi increase in pressure and without all kind of fancy testing equipment you just don't know. But that Silhouette powder data should do you fine since it's within their data range.

I can't help you out of chasing down primers, but you might check places you normally don't think of. Last month my brother checked the local Academy and they had small pistol primers in stock and ended up buying 2 bricks of them.

If you can find some primers, you can still find bullets if you just want to put holes in paper. One place I regularly buy from is showing stock on shows 125 grain HAP style bullets and 130 grain FMJ bullets in stock for 38/357.

Good luck with your Lehigh bullet loading and also with your primer hunting endeavors.

I have dealt with green troops whose understanding of "terminal ballistics" and weapon effectiveness has come from growing up watching TV and movie action heroes. Things like, "The M16 sucks! I dumped a magazine into him before he dropped."

Go kick over the corpse and it's only been hit twice.

When the enemy keeps coming after being shot to pieces, he must be high on drugs. Our guy keeps fighting after being shot up, he gets a medal.

There is a somewhat grisly video of an RPG gunner being engaged by an infantry squad. Despite seeing several 5.56 and 7.62 rounds pass through his torso, he does not quit fighting.

At one point you see a round exit his skull just above his ear. At that instant, all voluntary action IMMEDIATELY CEASES.

Courtesy of U.S. Marines : Operation Truth : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Those country boys, who grew up hunting, have deer seen fall DRT on one day and run a hundred yards the next with similar hits are not as surprised, but they are in the minority these days. Shooting blocks of Jello, might be entertaining ad copy, but that's about as far as it goes with me. Give me mass and penetration. I want them leaking on both sides through a big a hole as I can get. I know enough anatomy to know where I want to put my bullets. If you ever get to hunt animals that bite, your guide will not say go center mass.

True on deer; had 'em drop on the spot, and had some would run 125 yards with no blood pressure or blood trail because of a heart and lung shot. Only guaranteed one shot stop is from a 3" ordnance round, or one round from a tank main gun.