I reload 25-35 new Winchester brass, on the second reload i have noticed primers backing out just enough, so that the shell will not go into the shell holder. The loads are minimum loads. 19.5 gr of 4895 and 115 gr hornady rn interlock bullets. I am able to take the cases out on the work bench and knock out the primers. Anybody run into this? Rifle is 1908 Winchester 1894. I am investigating what percent has problems.

Normally see this when using minimum loads and full length sizing the cases. If the chamber is on the high side of the tolerances and a light load is used quite often the primer backing out is the result.



Try setting your die up so that it just barely kisses the shoulder neck juncture. You can do this by coloring the neck with a sharpie and gradually turn the die down until you see the line on the neck just touch the shoulder.



Your cases will fit the chamber more closely and it should eliminate the primer backing out.

minimum loads are likely the cause. All primers back out to some degree, but the recoil action of the case slams them back into place. Thereby the minimum load does not complete this recoil action. Gradually raise your charge until the problem goes away.

Change primer brand and see if you still have the problem. Could be an easy fix if that corrects itself. Not all primers are the same exact size.

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S&W factory revolver armorer

I suspect your cases are oversized, the shoulder being pushed back too far. The headspace needs only .001-.002 clearance to chamber easily in most rifles. The more space, the more "slop" in the fitting and room for the primer to move.

How far are the primers backing out? A couple thousandths? More?

Resize brass only enough that a cartridge will chamber with some slight resistance. This is a common complaint with '94 Winchesters and lower pressure cartridges. Increasing powder charge may also help, but probably not as much as proper sizing will.

It’s basically excessive head space in the chamber. Have had this on several older 30-30’s, Winchester and Marlin. Best solution I’ve found is to neck size only with the cases already fired in that gun. They have fire formed to that chamber.

Dan

You could be sizing your cases a little too short , the short case gives the primer a little room to back out .
Back your sizing die out a quarter turn and try that ... still happens , back out die another quarter turn .
Another option is to neck size the case , that way the body stays as is and the primer has no place to go .
Gary

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NRA Member

The only other thing not listed above might be loose primer pockets.

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Front sight and squeeze

I've shot some cases with pretty loose pockets in bolt action rifles and never had primers back out. I imagine a lever action would be similar. Now an AR is a horse of a different color.

Any cartridge loaded at lower pressures will have the primer back out of the primer pocket. This is because the chamber pressure is not great enough to push the rear of the case against the bolt face.

Example, even at the maximum chamber pressure of 42,000 psi the primers on my 30-30 always protrude.

P. O. Ackley did an experiment with a 30-30 and removed the locking bolt. He test fired the rifle remotely and nothing happened, the case gripped the chamber walls and the rear of the case was not pushed to the rear to touch the bolt face.

The same thing will happen any time you make a workup load starting at the suggested start load.

Bottom line if the chamber pressure is not great enough to make the case stretch to contact the bolt face the primers will protrude.

No one has noted the age of the OP's Model 1894. Being that the rifle is 113 years old, I would first check the chamber with a No Go headspace gauge. If that checks out, than look at the dimensions of the resized case very carefully to make sure they were not deformed when reloading. There should not be enough headspace in a rifle chamber, light loads or not to notice much primer movement unless the shoulder of the case has been set back during resizing or the chamber is out of spec.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Twenty plus years ago I had the exact same problem in the exact same rifle/cartridge. Excessive head space was the culprit. Plus any load that was even remotely fast literally shot 3 feet high at 100 yards. I traded it off.
Tom Black

Slightly off topic, but on (topic) regarding primers bulging out. I had this happen during a squib. The 350gr FMJ was lodged in to the forcing cone and half the powder was unreacted. The pressure while static with bullet still seated was enough to bulge the primer.


The primer then wasn't flattened (as normal) against the frame surface for there wasn't enough kinetic energy once bullet was released.

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The rifle in question has excess headspace. No doubt about it.
The fired primer is so far backed out that it won't go into a S/Holder.

With the 25-35, it has nothing to do with where the cartridge shoulder is.
The 25-35 headspaces on it's rim. Anything forward of that can be most any shape as long as it still will chamber.

That a light load shows the setback primer vividly and a full power load will make it go away, does not change the excess headspace issue of the rifle.

But,,Reloaders can fireform their case to the rifles w/slightly out of spec chamber to work around the issue.


Once the case is fully fireformed with a full load,,leave it that way. You have Zero headspace 'for your rifle'.
The case is now headspacing on the shoulder of the case and the breechface. Not just on the rim which the 25-35 does.

But from then on,, you must neck size the brass only. Do not push that shoulder back or you will again introduce more headspace clearance into the chamber/cartridge combination.
Repeatedly FL Sizing will lead to case head separation. That brass can only stretch so far.

To repair to issue, a new locking block can often be fitted to take up the slack. New/Old/Stock parts are getting hard to find. Sometimes a simple replacement with a used one from the parts pile will put the rifle back within spec.
It used to be popular to shim the breech face to make up the excess space. A steel shim soldered in place, then later epoxy was sometimes used.
I've seen some welded up and then nicely machined back down to meet spec. I've seen others badly mangled by welding too.
There's welding and then there's welding.

0.13 on the one I measured.

May I go back to light loads after fireforming with a full load? Full load cup is 36000 psi with this powder. I am currently doing 25,000 cup psi. I have been nervous about this 113 year old rifle but it seems to be in good mechanical shape.

It’s light loads. The most obvious is usually the problem. I bought a 95 Win that did the same thing. Some dick weed convinced owner that it was a headspace problem and fix would be to expensive to be practical. I’ve seen primer back out among the crowd that is figuring how many cartridges they can load with a pound of powder. Good rule of thumb for older rifles in good mechanical condition is factory loads. Look up what factory is loading at and dupe. They always load for weakest gun that may be available. Don’t buy ammo from the specialty outfits that are loading up old cartridges for use in modern replicas.

I guess I am looking for a neck size die (only) for a 25-35. Dont see it listed, only 25-06. will the 25-06 neck size die work for 25-35?

I just found generic Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Neck Sizer Die for 0.257 dia. I think this is what I need. What do you think.

You can use a load mid way betw min and max in the manuals and it's most likely to fireform the cases just fine.
Just don't expect one of the extreme light cast bullet loads using pistol powder to do it. You'll probably get the same result as your min load that gives you the problem.

You can use most any safe load after the brass is fireformed to the chamber.
As long as you don't change that headspace by pushing the shoulder of the case back. Doing so will re-introduce the excess headspace by again head spacing the case on the rim instead of the shoulder.

I have a 1908 Mannlicher Schoenauer w/ excess headspace.
It'll do the same thing as your 1894 if I load it with a minimum load.
The fired cases will have the primer hanging out of the back.
Increase the load a few grains , the primer issue disappears.
But those case are stretching each time to fill the chamber because of the excess H/S. They would separate after a few reloading if I continued to FL resize load and fire them.

Since I make the brass (8x56 M/S) from 8mm Mauser, I simply adjusted the FL sizing die out a little when making them.
That left the shoulder out too far and the case would not chamber, but that is what I wanted. Then slowly and in increments screw the die down while resizing the case and trying it in the rifle.

Turning the die down will have the effect of pushing the shoulder back as you resize.
You keep pushing the shoulder back and trying the case in the rifle till the action will just close on the sized case.
Then you have headspace set up at the shoulder and the base of the case touching the bolt face.

Lock the die right there and reload the cases with that setting.
The shoulder will always be allowed to stay right where you want it so case stretching won't occur.

Sometimes you'll find an extra couple degrees of turn down on the die will be necessary to make the rds easier to chamber. That'll especially be true in a Lever Action where you don't have the leverage in chambering as you do in a turn-bolt action..

The two thing I gleamed from you guys is to use factory loads and use neck sizer dies only. These I am going to do! Thanks so much for all the help you guys have given me. S&W Forum is GREAT.

I collected old milsurp rifles and many had headspace past a Field gauge.

I could still shoot these rifles with reduced loads without worries or problems. As long as the case does not stretch to contact the bolt face the brass and the bolt are not being strained.

A British .303 Enfield rifle at max military headspace of .074 with a rim thickness of .058 has .016 head clearance. The head clearance would be equal to the amount of shoulder bump of your resized case. So a neck sized case would actually apply more bolt thrust because the base of the case does contact the bolt face.


It is not until the chamber pressure is great enough to make the case stretch does it effect the case and apply pressure to the bolt face.



And a Lee Loader depriming tool will solve removing your primers.



The European CIP requires that a oiled proof pressure cartridge be used for proofing firearms. The oiled case exerts the maximum bolt thrust to the bolt face and bolt lugs. "THEN" the headspace is checked.

A backed out primer simply means the case and the rifle are not being strained.

The primers on my 30-30 always back out and there is nothing wrong with the rifles headspace. So remember P.O. Ackley removed the locking bolt from a 30-30 and test fired it and nothing happened. This test tells us at the max chamber pressure of 42,000 psi the case did not stretch. And the case gripped the chamber walls and only the primer moved to the rear.

Below at max headspace of .070 the primer can back out .007 and there is nothing wrong with the rifle.

bigedp51. What is your bottom line? I think you are saying go ahead and neck size only and not worry about maximum loads, its ok if the primers back out, the cases will be ok?

Get a Hornady headspace comparator kit and measure a full load fired case, not a lightly loaded round. Then adjust your 25-35 sizing die to bump the shoulder back .002-.003 when resizing. According to SAAMI, the base to shoulder dimension is 1.475ish. A fire cased case should measure slightly longer. That will be about the headspace length of your rifle--say 1.480. If you set your sizing die to size your fired cases to a headspace length of 1.477-1.478, and you bolt closes easily on a resized case, your case now fit your chamber properly with less stretch and slop and should resolve any primer issues.