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Old 02-13-2021, 09:36 PM
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Default A 9mm Load Question

As I was going through the flotsam and jetsam in the reloading area, I found a box of 500 rounds or .356" lead 125 gr SWCs that my dad apparently bought 20+ years ago to reload for his Model 39-2. With the current paucity of factory ammo, I'd probably be well advised to at least start thinking about reloading for my Franken-Smith.

I went to the MD Smith site and of the powders I have in good supply he suggests loads of 4.7 grains of Bullseye, 6.0 grains of Unique or 4.0 grains of 231. Since I've never loaded a single round of 9mm for this or any other pistol with these or any other powder, I thought I would ask those of you who have more experience with this specific bullet in the 39 series of gun, have you had good results or otherwise with any of these three powders and this bullet type? I don't need to hear about your 149 grain jacketed bullets with Super TNT brand powder, etc. I'm committed in this day and age to this bullet with one of these specific powders.

Can any of you give me any suggestions from your own experiences?

Thanks in advance,
Green Frog
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Old 02-13-2021, 09:43 PM
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Of those three I've used 231 and Bullseye. I like the 231 better. It's often difficult to find a combination that works really well with the 9mm and lead bullets, at least in my experience. I'm used to the .38 Special where everything shoots from good to great. With the 9mm and lead bullets, for me, it's more like bad to good.
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Old 02-13-2021, 09:55 PM
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I use 231 in the 9mm. Some lead bullets, if driven too fast will lead like crazy.
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Old 02-13-2021, 09:59 PM
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The 4.0 grs of W231 is one of the loads I use routinely with the little Lee 122 gr truncated cone cast bullet (sized 0.357Ē).
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Old 02-13-2021, 10:44 PM
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Just a note on those MD Smith loads;

per my manuals and lead bullets, those are full loads and you might want to start lower,
until you get to know what is going on, just to be on the safe side.

Some like to shoot lead in their 9mm pistols and some don't.
I have yet to shoot a "Lead" bullet in my 9's but have used coated
that work pretty good if you have time to find out what powder and
speed the bullet and your weapon like.

Since most lead bullets are not loaded to +P speeds, I would forget about the Unique powder and just use the faster powders for nice target loads that you will enjoy, to shoot,

Have fun with those bullets.
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Old 02-13-2021, 11:08 PM
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Thank you all very much. It looks like a short run of nines using the "found" bullets and 4.0 grains of 231 will be my next step. Enough rounds to do a function and accuracy test (as well as to check for leading.)

The reason I built my 639 based pistol to have as a sort of test mule for 9mm just because I didn't have one (or as I'm now admitting, much experience with one.) I appreciate you giving me the benefit of your experiences.

Froggie
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Old 02-13-2021, 11:15 PM
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Default .356, 9mm, 125 grn. SWC's

I have shot tons of 125 grain SWC's in 9mm using W231. Use the Winchester load data. Your gun's barrel will tell you if it likes .356 lead bullets!

Smiles,

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Old 02-13-2021, 11:17 PM
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I realize you are working with what you already have, but if you do have accuracy concerns and want to continue working with lead bullets in your 9mm pistol, you might consider a powder-coated bullet sized to 0.357Ē, or even a bit bigger. In my experience, the Lee bullet mentioned earlier, sized accordingly, has been excellent.
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Old 02-14-2021, 01:48 AM
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1. Are these swaged lead, or hardcast?

2. I've fired plenty hardcast through my M&P9. They work, but how much leading depends on the gun.

Example: the M&P is a duty gun. Smith assumes jacketed bullets and doesn't spend effort polishing the barrel. My 686 is highly polished because Smith knows such a gun may be called upon to fire hardcast or even swaged.

Same with my XDM 10mm. Springfield knows that this cartridge is frequently handloaded and they polish the barrel.

3. Hardcast is cheaper than jacketed, except in 9mm. Everglades will sell 9mm 115 grain FMJ for the same price as you pay for hardcast. (Pre panic). So that's what I do. Jacketed for 9mm, hardcast for 10, 357, 44.

Last edited by Univibe; 02-14-2021 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 02-14-2021, 08:29 AM
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I had a 39-2 for several years and mine very much liked WW231 and 124 lead. I think 4.0 grains is on the medium to medium plus side of of the loading range. Where you seat the bullet is a major factor. The happy mix is, As long as will feed and fit in the mag. After you find this, check how dirty/filthy the bore is. If it looks clean you are in the right neighborhood. If filthy, your load is a little light. If an otherwise good extractor fails to eject or you fail to feed, You are most likely 2/10's of a grain too much 231!

On seating the bullets, I always just used the Round Nose seating stem. It may round the edges of sharp nosed SWC's, this will only enhance feeding.


At the time I had 3 9mm pistols. A Star BM (steel frame) A Star BKM (alloy frame and the S&W 39-2 (also alloy). The same box of ammo, produced ac sooty mess in both Stars, and was clean in the S&W but shot accurately in all three! When the transfer was approved for my MAC-10 full auto, I used that same load for about 40,000 rounds over the next 25 years. Under my test conditions, (full auto, stock extended, kneeling, and either a 6" extension or silencer screwed on) 5 round bursts were 3" at 50 yards. [That is pretty good, and cures whatever your target of poor manors!] The MAC fired from an open bolt and was filthy regardless of ammo used! I slugged the bore one time, it was oval, .352 x .358! It never seemed to lead up, and all failures were from trying for too small of bursts!

That tells you 9mm, WW231, and lead bullets are a good combo, I had European Jacketed 9mm that jammed in every firearm I tried it in!

Ivan

Last edited by Ivan the Butcher; 02-14-2021 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 02-14-2021, 08:36 AM
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I’ve been loading 9mm for over 40 years, but.........I’m sorry, and I’ll show my ignorance here.......SWC= Semi-Wad-Cutter?
In a 9mm? Never heard of that, didn’t think they would even feed.
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Old 02-14-2021, 10:33 AM
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I pay extra attention to COAL in 9mm. Itís a small volume case with high pressure, so keeping it above min COAL for the particular recipe is important.
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Old 02-14-2021, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
I pay extra attention to COAL in 9mm. Itís a small volume case with high pressure, so keeping it above min COAL for the particular recipe is important.
I had some coated, 125 gr LRN that I set at 1.06" that reached 1046 fps with the faster powders.
my HS-6 loads got around 1173 fps, with this OAL.

As mentioned, OAL depends on the bullet and it's shape.

Good luck.
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Old 02-14-2021, 01:00 PM
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Default 9mm SWCs

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Originally Posted by fordson View Post
Iíve been loading 9mm for over 40 years, but.........Iím sorry, and Iíll show my ignorance here.......SWC= Semi-Wad-Cutter?
In a 9mm? Never heard of that, didnít think they would even feed.
In the 1911, 9mm it feeds just fine. It also feeds fine in my 5906 and PPC 9. These were 125grain, .357 dia.!

Smiles,
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Old 02-14-2021, 04:24 PM
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SWC 9mm,...... how about that! The stuff I learn on this forum..........thanks
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Old 02-14-2021, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordson View Post
SWC 9mm,...... how about that! The stuff I learn on this forum..........thanks
On a good day one can learn something, hopefully...?

I always though the Model 39 was an all steel frame: now I learn that they made BOTH steel & alloy frames!

Cheers!
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:41 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
On a good day one can learn something, hopefully...?

I always though the Model 39 was an all steel frame: now I learn that they made BOTH steel & alloy frames!

Cheers!
Th steel frame was the mdl 44. Don't think it was ever produced commercially.
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Old 02-14-2021, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordson View Post
Iíve been loading 9mm for over 40 years, but.........Iím sorry, and Iíll show my ignorance here.......SWC= Semi-Wad-Cutter?
In a 9mm? Never heard of that, didnít think they would even feed.
I had some .357 diameter 150gr semi-wadcutters that I ordered for a tight throated revolver. They didn't work so well. I ended up reaming the cylinder throats.

But I was stuck with the bullets. They were pretty much a slightly lighter version of your every-day 158 gr SWC.

I loaded them up and shot them in my 9mm 1911 (Springfield Loaded Target). They functioned fine and actually shot really well. I may use that one bullet for both the .38 and 9mm, just size the 9mm down to .357. I did try some .358 but I was having some random chambering issues.
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Old 02-14-2021, 09:33 PM
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Default 9mm SWC

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Originally Posted by fordson View Post
SWC 9mm,...... how about that! The stuff I learn on this forum..........thanks
The profile isn't quite as long as the traditional 38 SWC. IF I can find one I'll post a pic.

A 9mm Load Question-20210215_081658-jpg

Smiles,

Last edited by jjfitch; 02-15-2021 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 02-14-2021, 10:14 PM
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Itís a bit far afield from Green Frogs original topic but the old NEI #84 design was a 9mm SWC intended to duplicate the H&G #68 .45 caliber bullet for use in .38 Super/9mm. It worked very well and was not prone to causing feed malfunctions, at least in my experience, but when Lee started producing the little 122 gr truncated cone bullet it consistently outshot the #84 by a tiny margin in most of my guns and I drifted away from using it, but mostly because the Lee mold was a 6-cavity and the bullet was 8 grs lighter, so it saved a bit of lead.

In addition to the W231 load already mentioned, I also had good luck with WSF and HS6. I never had any luck with cast bullets smaller than 0.357Ē and would not hesitate to use slightly larger if the chamber and brass would allow it. I used to favor Remington brass for loads with cast lead bullets.
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Old 02-19-2021, 10:51 AM
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Well, I finally took the time to dig out the box of 9mm bullets Dad had stashed, and as usual I was only partially right. The label on the box shows they are from American Bullets. They are 125 grain cast RN bullets that have a single grease groove full of a blue lube that looks kind of like the carnauba based lubes I have seen, and the advertised diameter is .355” which is pretty close to what I get with my mics.

I also found a goodly amount of 231, so it looks like as soon as I can sort out and clean a supply of brass I’ll probably load up a test batch of these with what seems a reliable charge of 4.0 gr of 231 behind these bullets and seat to the same COAL as my factory RN ammo and finish off with a taper crimp. Does this sound like a plan?

Froggie
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:25 PM
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Yes assuming the nose length is similar with the factory rounds. What you want is the brass determining the headspace by having the same trim length. So the bullet "shoulder" should not extend past the case nor should it be overly deep. That might mean a die adjustment of 1/2-1/3 turn to get there from factory.
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:25 PM
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I shoot some 120 gr. powder coated cast lead truncated cone with W231 out of a glock 19 with 4" barrel.

I've chronographed loads from 3.6 to 4.4 of W231.

4.0 grains has by far the lowest extreme spread and standard deviation, and is the most accurate in my Glock. Those shoot at 997 ft/s with a spread of only 16 ft/s. and standard deviation of 7

The 3.6 grain load was too weak to cycle my slide reliably.

The 4.4 load only got to 1086 ft/s and accuracy went out the window

You would probably get similar performance in your model 39 from your bullets. I think 4.0 grains is a great place to start.
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:43 PM
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I shot 1000 cast 125 RN loaded with Unique, They shot fine but no better than plated 124s. I have tried 125 Cast SWC in the 9mm, don't remember the load, I have 500 more 125 SWC for testing, have a new DW Valkyrie Commander that I hope is more accurate than my 9mm Citadel. The only 9MM I have that didn't like cast is my LC9. The Citadel and 92FS work fine with cast. You may have some feeding problems with the SWC, My 2 Wilson mags won't feed them. Metalforms work fine.

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Old 02-20-2021, 10:55 PM
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Thanks DeplorabusUnum and pistolpete10, this is exactly what I wanted, "this is what happened when I..." instead of "you ought to try..." (that they've never tried themselves.)

It looks like the 4.0 grains of 231 will be a good starting point as will a moderate load of Unique (care to share a weight here or by PM, pistolpete10?) I just discovered a stash of 231/HP38, so I'll probably be using that first since I've got more of that than Unique. I've got a fair supply of the 125 gr LRNs, but if somebody were to offer me some JHPs or SWCs in the same weight class, I'd probably go for them too.

Thanks again guys!
Froggie
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Old 02-21-2021, 12:19 AM
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Another vote for W231 form me. I use it for 9mm, 45acp and 44mag. It's proven in my loads to give me consistent measured loads from my RCBS P2000 and very accurate on target. It's also an economical powder, with fewer grains than a lot of other powders.
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Old 02-21-2021, 12:43 AM
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Default My go to load...

9mm 124 grain Hi tek coated SWCs from Missouri Bullets with around 3.8 to 4.5 grains of 231 has been my go to load for a long time.
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Old 02-21-2021, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
Thanks DeplorabusUnum and pistolpete10, this is exactly what I wanted, "this is what happened when I..." instead of "you ought to try..." (that they've never tried themselves.)

It looks like the 4.0 grains of 231 will be a good starting point as will a moderate load of Unique (care to share a weight here or by PM, pistolpete10?) I just discovered a stash of 231/HP38, so I'll probably be using that first since I've got more of that than Unique. I've got a fair supply of the 125 gr LRNs, but if somebody were to offer me some JHPs or SWCs in the same weight class, I'd probably go for them too.

Thanks again guys!
Froggie
If you're interested in using Unique, I've tested loads of 124 gr FMJ RN. 4.5 gr of Unique gets me almost identical velocity as the 4.0 gr of W321 (990-1000 ft/s). 4.7 gr gets up to 1020 ft/s. Those are good target loads, but fall short of typical self defense loads.

Some people like to practice with loads that closely match the self defense ammo they carry. I've tested five of those, and they all chrono at an average of 1145 ft/s from my Glock. I tested Hornady XTP, Federal HST, Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot, and Fiocchi XTP. Of those, the Gold Dot was by far the most consistent velocity wise, and most accurate. It did have the lowest velocity at 1110 ft/s. What load you choose depends on whether you're after velocity/stopping power, or punching holes in paper.
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