4227 and .38-44

[spencerdiesel]

Hey all, this thread would not even be posted if I had .357 brass. Due to not being able to get anything anywhere related to things going bang, I’m asking if I can use what I have currently.
The powder in question will be loaded for a circa 2011 60-15. I have 5 lbs of IMR4227, 1000 SNS coated hardcast bullets, around 600 pcs of .38 brass, and 0 .357 brass.
I’ve read from multiple posts stating 4227 is best for higher pressure (way beyond .38 +p) and heavier pills. Being new to reloading, I welcome all advice and constructive criticism from you all.
I’m thinking a .38-44 level load is what I’ll be aiming for after starting lower, but what do y’all think? Thank you

[SAFireman]

Originally Posted by spencerdiesel

...Being new to reloading, I welcome all advice and constructive criticism from you all.
I’m thinking a .38-44 level load is what I’ll be aiming for after starting lower, but what do y’all think? Thank you

Start low, use a chronograph, work up slowly, watch for over-pressure signs.

Imagine how hard it will be to procure another model 60 when you blow it up, or lose some fingers.

Be safe, find a local mentor if you can. Good luck.

[Peak53]

You don't mention your bullet weight and profile, which is important. The only loading manual I have at my current location is Lyman. It doesn't mention 4227 until you get into magnum range. Most all of those loads for a variety of bullets are far beyond pressure limits for a .38 Special of any variety. Even shooting in an N frame could present pressure problems for the shorter .38 case. The recoil might be "unpleasant" in a J frame.

Unless you can find a published load (not advice from the net) for your specific components, I believe this powder to be too slow. I suggest you either find some magnum brass or a more suitable powder. I love this powder in .44 mag, but it is a handful. It also appears to require magnum primers.

[SLT223]

Given my experience with 4227 in .357, I struggle to see how it will work in sub full magnum pressure environment. If you try it, I wouldn’t bother with more than a handful of test loads. Wear long sleeves, and safety glasses. My guess is the cylinder will lock up within the first six rounds from unburned powder packing in behind the ejector star.

[Tim357]

I have a chart from Handloader magazine I'll post here tmrw. It shows a couple 38/44 loads with 4227.

[cowboy4evr]

I have shot 4227 for years and I can tell you this . It really does best with a magnum primer , a real firm crimp . There are much better powders for what you are wanting to do . Will it work ? Yes ---- it will work , not the best but it will work . Good luck , Regards Paul

[Tim357]

I can't get the picture to transfer from my computer to this reply, but the loads came from an article by Mike Venturino. The loads he suggests are 11.0 and 12.0 gr IMR4227 under a 150-160 gr cast bullets, sized at .358, using CCI 550 SPM primers. Velocities were recorded as 970 - 1067 fps from 5 and 5.5" bbl

[cowboy4evr]

Tim357 , give it a try . I some time back read about a guy that was wanting to shoot 148 gr wadcutters . He either only had 4227 or someone gave him a bottle . Anyway he used , if I remember correctly 8.0 grs . It shot dirty , but he was very impressed with the accuracy . I am sure that what you read from Mike Ventorino is a safe load to use . It will probably shoot somewhat dirty but the accuracy should be great . Like Mike said , use a magnum primer to get more consistent ignition and more complete ignition . Shooting out of a longer barrel will help also . Lets us know how it works for you . Regards Paul

[TMan51]

Originally Posted by spencerdiesel

Hey all, this thread would not even be posted if I had .357 brass.

You can get all the .357 brass you want at Starline, and it's been available all through Covid.

4227 is an OK powder in the .357. I gives up some velocity to W296/H110, but not much. It's very good for accuracy in my 77/357 scoped carbine.

[cowboy4evr]

Thinking back , I can remember shooting heavy cast bullets using 4227 in 38 special case . The bullet was supposed to weigh 195 grs . But when I weighed them they came in @ about 216 grs . I loaded them on top of 13.0 grs of 4227, using a spm primer and shot them out of a smith model 28 , 6.5" barrel with great accuracy , even out to longer distances , no wobbling and they shot much cleaner than I had expected . Regards Paul

[Nevada Ed]

I have used IMR4227 in my 686 6" with 38 special cases, just to see what would happen.

This powder is very slow in burn rate and reminds me of loading a 270 or 30-06
with the slow 4831 powder, which is a great powder for begining loaders, to keep them out of trouble.

In a 38 case with a 110gr JHP and a "Full" case of powder my revolver got 945 fps.
A 158gr lead bullet with the short 38 case maxed out at 888 fps, with 11.0c .

I had to stop shooting loads in my J frame snub nose, since the powder locked up the cylinder solid, to where I needed to get it home to dismantle it and clean it, to get it to work again.

Have fun.

PS;
it does work a lot better in a .357 case.

[boatbum101]

FWIW I shoot 12.5grs H4227 , LY 358429 ( 173grs my alloy ) , WSPM primer , Starline 38 spec +P cases . Not a load for majority of 38 specials unless like me you have an Outdoorsman N frame , 357 mag gun you're OK . Runs right around 1175fps from a 6 1/2" barrel . Now 14.5grs is max in a 357 case with same bullet & it's a 40K CUP load . So 12.5 in a 38 case would be solid 357 probably 30-35K CUP .

[spencerdiesel]

Wow thanks you all for the great info! I just checked Starline (thanks for the recommendation) and it shows .357 currently back ordered. I’ve been wanting heavier bullets but what I have is SNS 147 grn flat point (all they had available at the time) and Acme 148 grn DEWC.
I also have Win 231, but have gathered it’s a fantastic low to mid power powder in .38 and low low level .357. The mag primers are a great idea, I’m only able to use CCI 400 at the moment (also not conducive to 4227 and lower psi). What do you all think about setting the COL just long enough in .38 cases that they’ll only chamber in .357? Thanks!

[cowboy4evr]

Actually your CCI 400 would work fine . SRP's are about the same on heat as SPM . Sounds like you want to crimp outside the crimp groove . It can be done but needs a real tight crimp to hold them in place so you don't get " bullet jump " . The bullet moving forward out of the case , extending out the front of the cylinder tying up the cylinder because of recoil . Be sure and use a roll crimp and a tight one . I have done it w/o any problems , when done right . Regards Paul

[Nevada Ed]

W231 is not that bad in the .357 revolver.

With a 125 JHP, it will push that weight at 1,200 fps or more
out of a 6" barrel.

That works out to 399.78 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

[spencerdiesel]

That’s what I’m hoping to do regarding crimping, the SNS 147 flat points have no crimp grooves. Great to hear about the primers! I read a thread where someone talked with a long standing CCI employee that was told there’s no difference between their spp and srp.
Do the 125 grn pills work better with 231 in .357 because it’s such a fast powder, the whole smack vs shove? I love heavy bullets, but I can’t be choosy now.
I have an RCBS .38/.357 3 die set I’m starting out with, do I have to use the seating/crimp die as for both simultaneously or can I roll crimp separately (what I’d like to do)? Thanks!

[Nevada Ed]

W231 and BE-86 are very close in FPS and accuracy in my 686 6" revolver.
I would almost say it is the same powder, since they are so close in FPS and accuracy.

I can't find my w231 picture but this one of BE-86 with the 6" barrel off of sand bags on one of my chrony test, gives you an idea if this powder works in a .357 case.

[spencerdiesel]

Thanks you all! I’m going to start with max book .38 +p loads (the gun is .357) with heavy crimp to see how dirty the 4227 is. I’ll slowly work up from there with some of the reccomended charge weights y’all have mentioned and watch for pressure signs.
I’ll also do a similar smaller scale test with 231 (only have 1 pound) and work up.
What are your opinions of 173-200 grn bullets in a .38 case with heavy crimp and heavy 4227 charges? Thanks again!

[spencerdiesel]

Just loaded 15 rds to test. .38 brass, COL 1.59” (mag length), 158 gr lswchp, CCI srp, 11 grns 4227. It’s a less than ideal combination with non mag primers and a 3” bbl, but tommorrow I’m hoping to run them in the 60-15 and get a baseline.
Based on this info do you feel this is an ok place to start in a .357? Thanks

[spencerdiesel]

Tested 15 rds of each of the following today: 12, 12.5, 13, and 13.5 grn 4227. All with Hornady 158 gr LSWCHP. The 12.5 grn shot the most “predictable/ ideal grouping. Currently I have no chrono, so I don’t have vel unfortunately.
I’m of course new to hand loading, so I don’t have a good reference for leading/ dirty burning. In total 60 rds were fired (all hornady lswchp & 4227) and I noted some streaking in the rifling. There weren’t any issues with shell extraction or binding, but there were kernels in the barrel after all loading (less at higher charges). Accuracy was what I consider ok for an amateur like me. 2.5” -3” 5 shot groups at 15 yards standing. I was able to put 4 of 5 rounds on a 12” x 16” box at 80 yards standing. Of course there’s operator error in this. Any educated guesses on velocity of 12.5 gr 4227 under 158 gr soft lead out of a 3” model 60? 850-900 maybe? Thanks!

[Nevada Ed]

In my 686 6" and a 38 case with the 158 XTP bullet, and a full case of 4227 did 866 fps.

With a 357 case a light load of 12 grs did 976 fps.
I never loaded a full load but a 6" should get around 1250 fps.

Good luck.

[cowboy4evr]

If you had streaks of leading in the barrel , that wasn't caused by the powder , IMR 4227 . You might have internal dimension problems with your revolver . The cylinder throats might be undersize or there's a " choke " where the barrel threads onto the frame . When indexing the front sight to the rear sight they over tighten the barrel causing a " choke " a tight spot . These conditions not only can cause leading the barrel when shooting cast , they also affect accuracy . It's not an uncommon thing . Regards Paul

[spencerdiesel]

Thanks for the info and experience y’all. So with my COL at .357 length, theoretically it’s equating to loading in .357 brass? I just bought a basic Caldwell chrono (the $90 one). I noticed the 13.5 gr loading was only a 1/16th or so below the bullet base at .357 COL.
What are the best options to remedy choking?
I’ve played with roll crimping the SNS hardcast 147 flat points (no cannelure) and was going to try some loads with them. Currently it takes about 4-5 moderate wacks in a inertia puller to separate the SNS, and about 5-6 for the lswchp.

[cowboy4evr]

How I have removed the " choke " in a revolver is to " fire lap " the barrel . It's a fairly simple process but requires patience and the proper knowledge how to do it . I won't go into it here . You can google it for more info or buy Veral Smith's soft bound hand book " Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets . Veral owns LBT Molds , one of the finer mold makers . His book might be found on amazon . Regards Paul

[Nevada Ed]

When loading lead bullets, a crimp is not needed with light target loads
since the recoil is very mild and should not be enough to have the bullet "Jump" in the case from recoil/inertia, even in 16 oz. revolvers.

Many lead bullets if seated deep enough will have enough friction on the case, to keep it in place, while shooting.

I have only had some bullet "Shift" when I reached a full standard load in a light J frame or a +P 38 load in a 357 revolver, in my loadings, without a good crimp on the bullet.


Let me know if you can get "Bullet jump" with your slow 4227 powder.
I don't know if it can be done?

[Neversink n Klapperthal]

Hope it works out for you. I had loads of unburned in 38 Spl with 2400

[spencerdiesel]

Ok all sorry for the delay in info. Got my chrono working and have some vel’s. Unfortunately (always somethin ain’t it?) the only numbers for 4227 I have are for 11.0 gr with LSWCHP @ .357 COL in the model 60. All numbers are also only 4 -5 shot averages.
40 deg & 50% hum
Model 10-5 4”
HPR (no longer made, I can see why) 158 JHP 678 FPS 622 635 611
Underwood 150 gr Wcutter 888 928 (readings for only 2 shots)
Power Pistol 6.0 gr 158 Nosler jhp 851 808 837 858
PP 6.2 gr 147 gr SNS coated (a flat point 9mm pill) 948 965 956 976
Underwood 158 Kieth 1125 1130 1146 1157 (impressed)
5.2 gr PP 158 LSWCHP 898 831 847 848

S&W 637 1 7/8”
HPR 158 JHP 702 657 629 605 643
Underwood 150 gr Wcutter 856 844 845 854
PP 6.0 gr 158 JHP 758 777 793 728
PP 6.2 gr 147 gr SNS 858 828 881 818
Underwood 158 kieth 1021 (only 1 of those left, hit 6” above POA)
5.2 PP 158 LSWCHP 741 759 764 766

Model 60-15 3”
ZERO brand (discontinued around 2000?) 158 LSWC 776 779 772 763 802
5.4 PP Acme coated Wcutter 148 883 885 892 915 866
5.4 PP LSWCHP 906 854 856 851 873
Underwood 158 Kieth 1075 1123 1093 1118 1125
Underwood Wcutter 150 922 906 909 929 931
11 gr 4227 158 LSWCHP 818 892 888 919 889

[Univibe]

If you still need .357 brass, I'll send you a little. PM wwith USPS mail address.

[spencerdiesel]

Univibe thank you for the offer! I apologize for the ridiculously late response. I was foolish enough to complete a lengthy response & chrono data post without copying it. I had to sign in again and lost it.

Here is the condensed info of the latest chrono. 45 deg., 60% humidity, all shot through 60-15 3” .357 mag.

5.6 PP 147 gr coated flat point (894 avg)

9.5 4227 148 coated Wadcutter 679 668 739 687 721
9.5 4227 147 FP 746 743 775 662 688
11 g 4227 (.357 col) LSWCHP 818 892 888 919 889 (880 avg)
12.5 4227 148 coated Wadcutter 961 933 928 948 921
12.5 4227 147 FP 985 936 928 946 899
5.6 PP 148 coated Wadcutter (903 avg)

Factory ammo PMC .357 158 JSP 1104 1129 1075 1064 1077

As expected the 9.5 gr 4227 was filthy residue wise, though shot well accuracy wise. The best groups of the above were attained with the 12.5 gr 4227/ 147 FP and 5.6 gr PP/148 Wadcutter. Both averaged around 2 1/4” 5 shot groups offhand at 15 yards.