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Old 07-30-2021, 05:16 PM
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Is .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .444 Marlin the same caliber/ bore diameter ?
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Old 07-30-2021, 05:44 PM
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All three cartridges use .429 jacketed bullets. Some marlin .44 mag bores can vary slightly (larger) from what is normally found in S&W revolvers. Not sure about the .444's.

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Last edited by Fishinfool; 07-30-2021 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 07-30-2021, 05:45 PM
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The .44 Special and the .44 Magnum are both .430 but I believe the .444 Marlin is slightly smaller at .429. At least that's the info I have available. The bullets themselves are probably constructed differently though because of the difference in velocity. I am going to edit this to say I have seen both .429 and .430 for the .44's.

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Old 07-30-2021, 06:11 PM
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Most 444 Marlin bullets are .430", but I have loaded .429" (jacketed) with decent results too. Pistol bullets, like a 240 gr JHP, don't work so well on deer at 444 Marlin velocities though.
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Old 07-30-2021, 06:40 PM
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All use the same diameter jacketed bullet. Remington used the 240 grain soft point for .444 Marlin. Same one used in 44mag. The only bullet that was specifically designed for 444 in the early days was the Hornady 265 grain flat point. I used some of those now discontinued factory loads on deer years ago-pulled the rug right out from under them. That bullet still, or was, available from Hornady-if you can find them.

I wouldn’t waste jacketed bullets on 44spl but I do load Remington .430 jhp’s in the mag (my Classic Hunter likes Federal brass). Deer are found within 50 or so yards from the shot.

I have found most, if not all, 44 cal jacketed bullets to be .430 in diameter across the board.
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Old 07-30-2021, 06:45 PM
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They are all supposed to be .429 groove dia bbls.

There are Twist rate differences and bullet mfg'rs offer up slightly different diameter bullets. Cast lead bullets can be ordered in different sizes to match what works best in your particular gun/bbl.
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:18 PM
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Yes, all the same caliber. The cartridge cases are the difference.

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Old 07-30-2021, 09:37 PM
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Note that many/most rifles chambered for .44 Mag utilize a .432" groove diameter barrel 'to reduce pressure.' And accuracy.
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:28 PM
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Technically yes.

In practice, as every revolvero knows, measuring your chamber throats and, if possible the bore dimensions, will show that as manufactured these can vary all over the place.
I have 44 revolvers made in the mid 1980's that have throats as big as .433" and newer ones that are .429" (theoretically correct).
45's can vary even more over the last century and more.
Matching your bullets to the throat dimension can go a long way to increasing accuracy which is where cast bullets come in handy.

Microgroove barrels, both 44 mag carbines and the big 444 seem to do best with bullets sized .432".
The largest jacketed 44 bullet I know of is the Zero at .431" and it does shoot well out of the 444 but does not have the right construction for hunting at full speed (as mentioned above).
I use them for plinking and practice in reduced loads.
Others say they also shoot well in many revolvers although I have not had the chance to test this much.

The trick to shooting slightly undersized bullets is to hit them hard enough in the base to bump them up to size and seal that chamber throat.
In the 44 special, softer bullets like the Speer 200 gr GDHP, which is really a plated bullet, works great as do other cast numbers.
In the 44 mag, full charge loads usually are quite accurate for the same reasons IMHO.
In the 444, heavy 280-300 grain .432" cast GC bullets are generally the most accurate going somewhere around Mach 2.
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Old 08-02-2021, 05:26 PM
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To add just a little confusion to the mix: The 44 S&W Russian and the 44 Henry RF are suppose to be the same as 44 Mag and the others. BUT! 44-40 (aka 44 WCF) as manufactured by Remington is .427 in their revolvers. My pair of Ruger Vaqueros in 44-40's would not chamber ammo loaded with .429!

Then you could look at 44 Colt and 44 S&W American (both healed bullets) use outside case sized bullets. Then there are a ton of European cartridges in 11 to 11.5mm diameter, they are pretty much a proprietary loading of 44 Russian. They have listed diameters variable by a few 1/1000ths of an inch, but they are loaded with a wide verity of hollow based bullet diameters (I think that was a quality control issue!)

All the old cartridges were loaded with oversize soft lead bullets the would swage down or obturate up to fit whatever the individual gun needed.

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Old 08-02-2021, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraynky View Post
Most 444 Marlin bullets are .430", but I have loaded .429" (jacketed) with decent results too. Pistol bullets, like a 240 gr JHP, don't work so well on deer at 444 Marlin velocities though.
Just out of curiosity, why not? Is 2000+ FPS too much for them? Do they over expand? Fragment?
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Old 08-02-2021, 11:51 PM
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The Hornady manual says all three use a .430" diameter bullet.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
Just out of curiosity, why not? Is 2000+ FPS too much for them? Do they over expand? Fragment?
They tend to explode at the surface leaving a meat crater and don't penetrate to the vitals as necessary for a quick kill.
Remington added an extra cannelure near the bottom of their 240 JSN to try and strengthen them up for the initial factory 444 ammo offering.
Reactions were mixed which caused quite a bit of damage to the 444's reputation until Hornady designed a 265 JSP specifically for the 444 with a thicker jacket and harder core.
There are now several jacketed bullets intended for 44 rifles but the Hornady 265 is still the main one although not for long as it has been discontinued.
The Woodleigh Weldcore 280-444 is probably the best one but it is rare and expensive if even available.
Other 44 jacketed candidates for running near Mach 2 are the Swift A-Frames, silhouette bullets like the Sierra 250 FPJ, and FMJ numbers like the Barnes Buster.
The cheapest, easiest, and potentially most accurate solution is to use a heavy .431-2" WFNGC if penetration on bigger game is desired.
I use the 260 gr. version in the 44 mag Redhawk with excellent results (18-19 gr. 2400).
Behind 31 gr. IMR4227 that bullet goes 1822 fps out of a 12" .445 Supermag Encore and 1913 fps out of the 17" barrel.
I get 2145 fps out of the 22" 444 using a 280 gr. WFNGC and 41 gr. H4198.
All are accurate enough for hunting (more accurate than I am).
In case you can't tell, I am a big fan of Veral Smith and his bullets.
He is the natural successor to Elmer Keith as to cast bullet design for revolvers and their lever/break action mates.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Rem240SP-444.jpg (233.1 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg Hornady4300comparison.jpg (59.8 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg WoodleighWeldcoreBullets.jpg (250.5 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Sierra250FPJ.jpg (245.2 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg LBT_WFNGCs800.jpg (174.9 KB, 32 views)
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Last edited by Nemo288; 08-03-2021 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:40 AM
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I used to have a Henry Big Boy in 44 Special/44 Magnum. After some experimentation I found that the Oregon Trail laser cast .431 240 grain SWC's were most accurate in it whether in 44 Special or 44 Magnum. I traded it for a Rossi R92 due to the vast difference in weight - The Henry weighed 8.5 ponds and the Rossi 5 pounds. The Rossi in 44 Magnum also prefers the the Oregon Trail laser cast .431 240 grain SWC's, and I load it for comfortable shooting with 7 grains of Unique which runs about 1150 fps out of the Rossi.
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Old 08-04-2021, 03:50 AM
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Those 44 rifles kick when shot with a full house magnum load don't they?
(24 gr. W296, 240 gr. bullet)
I get about 1700 fps out of 20" 44 Magnum carbines.
The typical hard butt-plate doesn't exactly help either.
I had my old gunsmith and reloading guru (now sadly gone) mount new wood with a nice butt-pad on my favorite one which is a Browning B-92.
The 92 action is much better suited to the revolver cartridges than the 94 although the latter does work.
I feel the 92 action may be intrinsically stronger/stiffer due to the fact the bottom is solid.
The 444 as it looks now with peep sight, happy trigger, and better butt-pad after a complete rebuild.
Then a couple of more obscure 44 rifles.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 44_Rifle_Trilogy800annotated.jpg (282.4 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg 44 Family 800.jpg (170.9 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 444WrappedLever1024.jpg (280.6 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg BeautyAndTheBeast7-600.jpg (74.6 KB, 31 views)
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:47 AM
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Hornady Reloading Manual shows the jacketed bullet diameter as .430 for all three rounds , think of the 44 Special as the shortest , the 44 Magnum is longer and the 444 Marlin is the longest .
All three are designed for .430" diameter bullets ...according to Hornady
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:25 AM
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I had a 29-2, 629-1 and even a 1995 29-5 and they all measured .432 - .433 on the throats. Then once Thompkins took over and after the 29-6 all is good at 0.429 throats. Throats is more important that barrel for accuracy as long as the barrel is smaller than then throats.
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:38 AM
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SAAMI says .44 Special and Magnum revolver .4325" throat, .429" groove.
SAAMI says ..44 Magnum rifle .431" groove, .444 Marlin .430" groove.

Tolerances are large and there can be a lot of overlap and still be in spec, but those are the nominal values.

Obviously cheaper for Hornady to say the same diameter for all bullets but they aren't making the guns.
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Old 08-04-2021, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Obviously cheaper for Hornady to say the same diameter for all bullets but they aren't making the guns.
I had the exact same thought! "It is .430 because that is the diameter we make!"

Back when Frank Barns still had Barns Bullets, He would make you any bullet you desired, but you had to but at least 1000 of them. Soft or Solid point, Flat or round nose, any weight, any jacket thickness, and ANY Diameter!

When nobody offered 300 grain 44 cal bullets, Frank did! I still have half a box of .431-300 gr- soft flat point-.032 wall bullets. I believe he intended these for rifles only, but my Super 14 Contender loves them. The included loading Data would blow a Model 29 to pieces, but my Contender, Marlin 336 (only made one year), & 1894 (second year), and Super Blackhawks all loved that load!

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Old 08-04-2021, 11:14 PM
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Hawk Bullets currently has a similar approach but with 2 main jacket thicknesses in the 44: .025 and .035".
Bullet Selection | Hawk Bullets
I have not used the Hawk Bullets but they can supply unusual configurations should you be in need.
He seems to be a major source for loading the Wildey magnum auto pistols for instance.
They also crow about their jackets being pure soft annealed copper (lowering the friction) and the cores being pure lead.
They don't mention how much more of that soft copper is left in your bores.
Hawk Bullets: The World's Premier Custom Bullet Manufacturer | Hawk Incorporated
I run out of the few 280 gr. Woodleigh Weldcores I have, I may take a look at Hawk.

The A-Frames have quite high friction due to the long straight shank and the fact part of that shank is in effect a solid.
Their published velocities support this theory.
I'll run them in the Redhawk and the Encore both of which have thick, hard, barrels but would hesitate to run them in the double with it's thinner barrels especially near the muzzle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 44mag.jpg (50.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 444marlin.jpg (53.0 KB, 9 views)
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File Type: pdf ANSI-SAAMI 44 Magnum.pdf (89.5 KB, 6 views)
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Last edited by Nemo288; 08-04-2021 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 08-05-2021, 12:32 AM
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Side note: When Marlin developed the .444 rifle, it was originally the Model 336 in 444 Magnum in 1963. Very few were made this way. This rare variation isn't even discussed in Col. Brophy's book on Marlins. The catalogue came out in 1964 displaying the new Marlin 444 in .444 Marlin. I've never seen one, but I understand that Remington produced some of the early cartridges in boxes labeled 444 magnum.
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Old 08-05-2021, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjbrdn View Post
Side note: When Marlin developed the .444 rifle, it was originally the Model 336 in 444 Magnum in 1963. Very few were made this way. This rare variation isn't even discussed in Col. Brophy's book on Marlins. The catalogue came out in 1964 displaying the new Marlin 444 in .444 Marlin. I've never seen one, but I understand that Remington produced some of the early cartridges in boxes labeled 444 magnum.
Very similar story for the Marlin 44 Mag rifles, just a few hundred on the 336 action the first year, then full production on the then new 1894 action. This is pre micro-groove rifling, and my gun shot .430 bullets just fine the when Micro-grove came along I moved up to .431"

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Old 08-06-2021, 12:20 AM
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Here's the first catalog blurb for the 444:
That stock looks a whole lot more comfortable than the one on my 444S.

Edit: going with the steel puncturing theme of the catalog, I'll add another version (the big hole is from a 444):
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 444 1st Catalog.jpg (120.6 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg Remmy444HolesInSteelAnnotated.jpg (85.7 KB, 14 views)
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Old 09-01-2021, 08:45 PM
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....which is why the term "Pistol Caliber" is one of the stupidest.....nevermind!
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Old 09-01-2021, 11:22 PM
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Remington loaded a bullet into a 444 Marlin case that was not appropriate for the speed of the 444 marlin cartridge.....bad ....bad... the Hornady 265 was designed for the 444. The Remington 240 was responsible for an inferior record. It.s expansion was made for a 44 mag revolver....should have never been produced as a 444 round.
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Old 09-02-2021, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
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Remington loaded a bullet into a 444 Marlin case that was not appropriate for the speed of the 444 marlin cartridge.....bad ....bad... the Hornady 265 was designed for the 444. The Remington 240 was responsible for an inferior record. It.s expansion was made for a 44 mag revolver....should have never been produced as a 444 round.
The 444 was designed to "replace" the 45-70. Kind of hard to do with 210-240gr bullets designed for handgun purposes. If I am looking to "replace" my 45-70...the last thing I want is an "expanding" bullet.
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