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Old 08-28-2021, 05:50 PM
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Default The perfect 9mm reload is close at hand....

Well for me at least.

Since I'm very new to the whole reloading thing I've learned that I've got a lot to learn. Doubt that I'll ever catch up to most, if not all, of you.

So about this perfect round...
Went to the range today to try out some new loads and my NEW ProChrono DLX!!
What a great tool to use when developing reloads! Muzzle Velocity, Extreme Spread, Standard Deviation all sent to my phone via bluetooth....and an audible report of the velovity of each shot fired.



Gotta tell ya folks, a chronograph should be on the top of any reloaders list of "Must Haves".


If photobucket was still a decent place to host pics I'd share my results.
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Old 08-28-2021, 11:37 PM
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9MM, you make a good point in using a chronograph. I've been reloading for years but never invested in one. I think I'll put that at the top of my list.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:48 AM
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A chrono is a tool and a good one, but it's not a substitute for shooting and observing groups in terms of accuracy. I've see loads that chrono'd great and were all over (or off) the paper. I recommend a chrono but only after you have a good target analysis app.
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Old 08-29-2021, 05:42 AM
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I’ve always considered my chrono as an analytical tool to make sure I’m not entering a dangerous pressure range. I compare my data with published loading data from the component manufacturers. Once I’ve determined I’m not approaching a danger point I work on accuracy. Chronographing is the first thing I do before putting holes in paper.
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Old 08-29-2021, 08:38 AM
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A good chronograph is a great tool for the reloader. I bought mine, a Shooting Chrony, way back when chronographs were very expensive. I bought mine in order to tailor my reloads for USPSA matches. Firing factory ammo over it proved interesting. Some ammo was right at what the factory claimed, other ammo was less.
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Old 08-29-2021, 10:06 AM
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I have said it many times, if you are reloading you MUST buy a chronograph. Does not matter what brand, but rather that you use one when developing loads for guns. It can save you money in reloading components and might save your firearm.
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Old 08-29-2021, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
I have said it many times, if you are reloading you MUST buy a chronograph. Does not matter what brand, but rather that you use one when developing loads for guns. It can save you money in reloading components and might save your firearm.
And it will help you meet new and interesting people at the range.....
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Old 08-29-2021, 10:53 AM
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Confession time. 49 years of reloading and I have never owned a chronograph. I have seen them in use at the range. Very interesting devices.

I will not criticize anyone who chooses to use a chronograph, or smart phone, or various apps. I just don't find these things to be necessary to accomplish my needs.

My needs do not include achieving the highest possible velocities or maximum energy levels. I like an accurate rifle, and I want my range and hunting ammunition to be capable of doing the job properly. I want my handgun ammunition to be safe, sane, and reliable in any handgun. Beyond that I don't really care all that much. If I need more power, or longer range, or different terminal ballistics for a particular purpose I can always choose another firearm or ammunition type.

I suppose I'm just a moderately advanced hobbyist, maybe a little more involved than some but not obsessed with edges of the envelopes.

Best regards.
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Old 08-29-2021, 11:05 AM
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All opinions welcome Sir, thanks for sharing yours.
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Old 08-29-2021, 11:24 AM
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I’m not trying to achieve the highest velocities I can. I have arthritis and try to load for the least punishment on my wrists and hands. Too light a load can get you in as much trouble as over charged loads. My chrono allows me to fine tune those light loads to stay above minimums set by the manufactures. After finding a minimum load I adjust for accuracy and comfort. If you’re loading on either end of the recommended loads you need a chrono for safety.
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Old 08-29-2021, 11:51 AM
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I like mine to see what my light target loads are at as well as my "Full loads" that are Nato or +P, per my manuals.

Many loads are well below the listed fps and I have five (5) loads with
115,124 & 147 bullets to test out "My" 100% loads of w231, CFE-p & BE-86
that should be at the manuals full fps ratings......... but only found in one place that can't be backed up.

No big thing if they don't get the fps that I hope for, it is just a data test
and probably will not be used again, since I do have many good/Acc. loads.


Enjoy the new toy.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:03 PM
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Great commentary here, thank you all for jumping in.

FWIW,
I'm working on developing the right load for my needs, both target and EDC.
124gn RMR Multi-Purpose Rounds and Win231 Powder.


I'm amazed at the difference in performance by a +/- .1 grain change. Who knew?!!?
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:34 PM
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One thing nice about a chrony is that it can tell you what different powders and their amount with a certain weight bullet will do out of your pistols.

My manuals state that a 124 gr. fmj bullet's starting fps with w231 or 700-x powders is around 845 to 866fps .
So I knew that I was on the ragged edge with a 124 gr bullet that I loadded with IMR4227 that had two stove pipes and only posted.....
701fps, in my C9 3.5" pistol.
No Squibs on this try but they were probably lurking near by.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:56 PM
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Unfortunately, that "+/ - 0.1gr" is easily beyond the degree of error a really good scale can measure to... And, as far as measuring length is concerned...?

Have fun, anyway!
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:00 PM
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Here’s a good illustration of why a chronograph is important.

I started experimenting with different powders in 9mm. I mainly use polymer coated cast 124/125gr bullets. I wound up liking Bulkseye for mild recoil but still achieving a velocity over 1000fps with excellent accuracy out of my Springfield 1911. The same load turned out to be equally as good in my Kimber 9mm 1911.

I only had one bottle of Bullseye left and ran across some Accurate N100NF. I bought two bottles and gave it a try. Recoil turned out to be even softer with comparable velocities and accuracy plus using less powder. The issue was recoil was so mild it wouldn’t cycle my 1911 even with reduced power springs. I took my spring down to 8 pounds and still didn’t get reliable function. So I started increasing my load until I reached maximum and still didn’t get reliable function.

There were no signs of over pressure but had I not had a chrono and continued to increase my load until I achieved reliable function I would have been in a serious danger zone.

Off topic, for anyone looking for a good alternative to Bullseye and a very mild shooting powder N100NF is excellent. I’ve tried it in 380, 38 special and 45 Colt as well and really like it. It requires a lot of attention when loading because the recommended loads have a very narrow range for safety. It meters exceptionally well but if you’re not analytical in your loading you probably should stay away from it. If you are extremely careful then it’s an exceptional powder.

Last edited by .38SuperMan; 08-29-2021 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 08-29-2021, 02:23 PM
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Clark Kent:

Uh, per Newton's 3rd, that really shouldn't happen: if you generate the powder's max velocities and pressure at their listed 2.8gr(?) for a lead 124gr bullet (@ 939fps and over 34K psi) it certainly SEEMS it "should be" sufficient to work the action of a 1911 with reduced power springs...?

Have you tried this load in any other 9mm pistols? Is your 1911 an extra longslide version, have a surpressor, etc. That seems to be a pretty fast powder (their #2 uses more for a start load for that same bullet). How much Bullseye were you using?

Are you using their guide 3.5 and above?

Jus' askin'...?

Cheers!
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Old 08-29-2021, 03:15 PM
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The Bullseye functions perfectly. It’s the N100 I’m not having any luck with and no I’ve not tried the N100 in any of my other 9’s but did load some up to try in my Kimber 1911 and Shield 2.0.

I did however try minimum loads in my Beretta 380 last week and there was no issue there. I’m going to continue investigating.
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Old 08-29-2021, 04:48 PM
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Over the years , I only had two powdes that had spikes at the top end of loading.

Sr4756 was in my 38 & 357 maximum loads with the lighter JHP bullets

and the other was the old N100 in my 12 Ga. trap loads at near full loads. Though safe, the primers showed signs of pressure, however it was a very clean powder, copaired to Red Dot and Clays.

Hope the "NF" powder works out for you in the pistols.
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Old 08-29-2021, 04:58 PM
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So I figured this out finally. Screenshots of my results, just some examples of what you can expect to see.


First are the screenshots of my first test string of previously loaded 124gn Berry's RN 4.3gn of Sport Pistol






Next is the final string of 124gn RMR Multi-Purpose 4.4gn of win231



Last edited by 9mmPatriot; 08-29-2021 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 08-29-2021, 05:45 PM
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There are several reasons a hand loader should be using a chronograph:

1) it’s a necessary tool to ensure the load you are making is consistent with what you expect from the data you are using, and if not, why not;

2) powder charges listed are nominal charges and they will vary based on the lot of powder being used. If you doubt that look at manuals that list data for both H110 and Win 296, or HP-38 and Win 231. They are respectively the same powder made in the same factory and just labeled differently. Despite that you’ll almost never find the same charge weight for max loads for the same cartridge and bullet combination. Rather than loading solely to max charge weight you should also be referencing the velocity at each step in the ladder;

3) the fly in the ointment is that velocities differ significantly not only with barrel length but also between type and model of handgun or rifle, and even between firearms of the same caliber and model. A chamber and throat cut with a new reamer will be much more generous than one cut with a worn reamer. You see similar variation in the bore, depending on how fresh the tooling happens to be, even before you start considering barrel erosion, etc. Revolvers in particular can have significant variation due to differences in chamber, cylinder gap and bore dimensions. 50 FPS is very common and up to 150 FPS isn’t un heard of, even in revolvers of the same make and model;

4) given 1-4 above you need a chronograph but you also need to keep data on your loads and firearms so you can have a better idea of what to expect from a load;

5) A chronograph is useful for developing accurate loads. Many loads will look very good at 100 yards in terms of group size, but you’ll often have loads very accurate loads at that range that have very high standard deviation. A load with an SD of 10-15 FPS that is 1 MOA accurate at 100 yards is probably a much better choice for long range shooting than a load that shoots 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, but has an SD of 30-40 FPS;

6) If you are a long range shooter, you’ll do better and get there faster if you know the velocity of your ammo in your rifle under various environmental conditions. For example my favorite load for the 168gr SMK using 4064 varies .7 FPS per degree F. That’s based on chronographing the load from 10 degrees F to 100 degrees F and getting linear results. That makes it much easier to get the first round on target at long range by correcting for muzzle velocity based on ambient temp first, rather than adjusting based on teal king the shots on target.

7) If you are a handloader as well a chronograph let’s you find an optimum load and then replicate it when you have to switch to a new lot of powder. And knowing the effect of ambient temp on the load let’s you replicate that load at any time of year;

8) For self defense purposes the velocity on the box of your favorite self defense ammo is useless given the source of the data and the variability between handguns. The same applies to any hand loaded SD or practice ammo. You can find ballistic gel test data that says a hollow point will perform at a certain velocity or within a velocity range, but you can’t know whether your velocity falls in that range without a chronograph.
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Old 08-29-2021, 05:58 PM
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Seems you can't use google to host pics.
*******s!

Last edited by 9mmPatriot; 08-29-2021 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 08-30-2021, 04:52 AM
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Chronograph's are inexpensive enough that every reloader should either own one or have access to one. It's both nice and important to actually know what your reloads are doing.

My new one has Bluetooth and sends data right to my Smart Phone.
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Old 08-30-2021, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
Unfortunately, that "+/ - 0.1gr" is easily beyond the degree of error a really good scale can measure to... And, as far as measuring length is concerned...?

Have fun, anyway!
And crimp and many other variables ;-)
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Old 08-30-2021, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by .38SuperMan View Post
The Bullseye functions perfectly. It’s the N100 I’m not having any luck with and no I’ve not tried the N100 in any of my other 9’s but did load some up to try in my Kimber 1911 and Shield 2.0.

I did however try minimum loads in my Beretta 380 last week and there was no issue there. I’m going to continue investigating.
Please let us know what your results are: with 939 fps velocity & pressure (in excess of 34K psi) listed in the N100NF load data for 124 gr lead bullets (their 2.8 gr MAX load) within standard 9mm parameters, something doesn't make sense?

Do your 1911s typically function with off-the-shelf factory 9mm ammo?

If you have any left you might break one down and remeasure the powder charge: otherwise, I would just make some new test loads to see if they duplicate that previous results.

Are you by chance using a balance beam scale? I know from experience it is pretty easy to get inconsistent(at best!) results when weighing very small charges: 2.7 gr of 700-x doesn't cut the mustard with an 124 gr bullet in 9mm when the start load is supposed to be 3.7!

Cheers!
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Old 08-31-2021, 08:54 AM
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Default Id like a chrono - - -

Until my expenses level out ill have to use the butt chrono.
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Old 08-31-2021, 10:41 AM
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For my purposes, I don't find that a chronograph is necessary. But... they are a whole lot of fun, and provide interesting and useful data. I've been through a bunch of them. First the optical (sky screen) types. Then a Magnetospeed and finally a LabRadar.

Most interesting was the effect of muzzle velocity variation on 22LR point of impact at 200 m. I noticed during long range silhouette matches that I had inexplicable high and low shots. Some time punching paper while checking muzzle velocities with the LabRadar was revealing. It doesn't take much variation at the muzzle to result in significant vertical stringing at 200 m. While I might get a nice round dispersion at 100 m, that wasn't the case way out there. That lead me down a new path to ammo choice.

Another useful tool is the Shotmarker electronic target system. It's interesting to see the bullets' velocities at point of impact. The velocity of a .308 Win at 500 yds can vary more significantly than might be indicated by muzzle velocity.

Again, a chronograph may not essential for me. The proof is in the shooting, but the data are intriguing!
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Old 08-31-2021, 12:10 PM
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I don't like what I saw on the loading data for A100NF powder.

A 124 gr Gold Dot from 2.9~3.2 grs of powder at 761 to 865fps.
There has to be a better powder unless you want just a target load.

I can get 1060fps with Bullseye, with the Speer GD JHP.

As far as a slide not working with a load getting over 900 fps.........
that weapon needs to go to the repair shop.

Last edited by Nevada Ed; 08-31-2021 at 12:12 PM.
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