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  #1  
Old 09-04-2021, 08:22 PM
Racer X Racer X is offline
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Default Carbide die and 9mm

REALLY new to reloading.

So, how does a fixed diameter carbide die deal with the tapered 9mm cases?

I have Lee 4 piece 9mm die set, if that helps? Haven't loaded anything yet. Still trying to get the garage set up, then build a HF woodworker's bench for my presses. Loadmasters and an APP. The APP will go one one of the removeable plates, and only mounted when needed to prep brass.
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Old 09-04-2021, 08:36 PM
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Obviously a carbide ring sizes the cartridge straight

It brings everything to the smallest diameter, which is the case mouth measurement.

Millions upon millions of hand loads have been loaded and safely fired since the introduction of carbide sizers, you have nothing to worry about
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:39 PM
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does it fire form to the tapered chamber? sounds like it does.
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:28 PM
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IMO the taper is so small its nothing to worry about. "colt_saa" made a good post above.

I load the 9mm with Lee carbide dies and have never had a problem.
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Old 09-04-2021, 10:47 PM
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I use carbide dies for some cartridge's. The advantage is longer life and less wear as tungsten carbide is much harder than steel.

That's about the only difference. My 9mm dies aren't carbide but if you have those you're ahead of the game.
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Old 09-04-2021, 11:57 PM
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My old RCBS 9mm dies have a full length carbide insert. It sizes the tapered case just like a regular steel die. Paid a fortune for it back in the late 80's. Same concept as 30 carbine carbide dies. Presumably to save money some manufacturers use a short ring that doesn't fully size the case. Evidently it works. Others like Redding are using two rings. Perhaps that helps. I think the best solution is a full length carbide insert, if still available and if one is willing to pay the price.
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Old 09-05-2021, 01:18 AM
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You're off to a bad start. Don't over think everything. Follow the instruction and learn from your mistakes, which hopefully are small. After a while you'll start to understand how the pieces fit together.
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Old 09-05-2021, 01:45 AM
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As I experienced it, carbide handgun dies became popular during the early 1970s. Many carbide dies were sold individually to reloaders who already had die sets with steel resizing dies. Pacific Dura-Chrome, Lyman, RCBS and probably most other brands' 9 mm carbide sizers had full length tapered carbide inserts. They were more expensive than carbide dies for straight revolver cases. Considering I've been using my Pacific Dura-Chrome and RCBS 9 mm carbide sizers ~ 45 years the extra expense was not much per year. Given a choice I would not buy a single diameter 9 mm carbide sizer.
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Old 09-05-2021, 08:17 AM
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I've been using the 4 die carbide sets for probably 15 years now. On regular pistol cases you don't need lube. I have the Lee classic turret and have them set up for 9, 38, 45acp, and 45 colt. Just swap out the turret, pour powder in it and start loading. Can't get any easier.
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Old 09-05-2021, 09:15 AM
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I use a Lyman carbide sizing die, no issue with the case taper.
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Old 09-05-2021, 10:18 AM
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Yes the carbide die will make the cases straight, however, keep in mind the last step reloading the 9mm is the taper crimp to lock the bullet.
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Old 09-05-2021, 10:41 AM
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Taper crimp does not actually lock the bullet, that is a function of case neck tension. Taper crimp should only press the belled case mouth to the side of the bullet so that there is no flared edge to impede feeding into into the chamber.
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Old 09-05-2021, 10:50 AM
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You have the 4 die set, you are good to go, don't over think this, handgun rounds are very simple to reload.
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Old 09-05-2021, 11:18 AM
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The 9mm Luger AKA 9 x 19 has more case taper than many handgun cartridges. Setting up the dies optimally is critical for good performance of your reloads. I've run both the RCBS and Dillon 4 die sets. With the 9mm is especially important that the sizing die be adjusted so that the loaded bullet is visible and the case below it is a smaller diameter. Lacking this, the bullet on feeding will be pushed back into the case, setting up a high pressure event upon primer ignition. I set the taper crimp die to produce a .376" at the very tip of the case. This is a critical dimension. COL will vary with the bullet used. As expected, too short a COL will produce failures to feed. Too long won't run through a full magazine. Start the the recommended COL from your manual and adjust from there. I simply pull the barrel from the gun for this preliminary test, then try to a load a magazine full of them. If it works then its on to chrono and accuracy testing.
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Old 09-05-2021, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arm View Post
Yes the carbide die will make the cases straight, however, keep in mind the last step reloading the 9mm is the taper crimp to lock the bullet.
Not everyone crimps 9mm. I've only been reloading since this past December and reading on the subject lead me to skip the crimp.


I do push-check my reloads and have had any issues at all.


My $.02

YMMV
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Old 09-05-2021, 01:46 PM
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Default Might want to recheck your sizer die

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
So, how does a fixed diameter carbide die deal with the tapered 9mm cases?
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Obviously a carbide ring sizes the cartridge straight.
It brings everything to the smallest diameter, which is the case mouth measurement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arm View Post
Yes the carbide die will make the cases straight...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
IMO the taper is so small its nothing to worry about.
.

I've never claimed to be a historian but I believe I recall reading that the old/original carbide 9x19 sizer dies had just a carbide "ring"?
(Straight wall cartridge carbide sizers only have (need) a ring.)

My oldest 9x19 sizer is all steel.

About 15 years (?) ago I bought a stand-alone Lee 9x19 carbide sizer die to compliment my existing older set.

More recently I purchased a new Lee Deluxe 9x19 set which of course has a carbide sizer die also.

.

Having never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, but not believing that modern 9x19 carbide sizing dies make your tapered cases straight, I decided a simple test was in order.

First I removed the center de-priming rod & nut to gain full access to the Deluxe Set's carbide sizer's opening & internal length.

Using my pin gage set I found that the largest pin that can enter the sizer die's mouth is .392", where it's stopped.

A .381" pin can only go ~.210" inside the die before it's stopped by the carbide sizer's insert.

A .371" pin can go ~.409" inside before it's stopped.

A .370" pin will go fully inside & is not stopped by the insert's smallest diameter.

These rough measurements closely mirror SAAMI 9x19 specs.

.

This unquestionably shows that modern 9x19 carbide sizer die have a tapered internal "insert" that provides the proper case taper (~.011", mouth-base) to the re-sized case, not a straight, no taper, sizing you'd only get with a carbide "ring" only.

Both of my Lee carbide sizer dies have the same features & while these dies undoubtedly make sizing easier you still can feel the extra resistance to full length sizing a 9x19 case -vs- a 40 S&W case because of the full contact at the last of the sizing stroke.

Really all you need to do is measure your sized case with a caliper & you can see the taper.

.
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Old 09-05-2021, 01:51 PM
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I haven't thought about my carbide sizing dies in probably 35 years, except when setting up a die (I don't want to run it into the shell holder and possibly crack it). I have no idea how many 9mm cases have been sized with my Lee dies ( last week I sized 500 and have about 2,000 JIC rounds and maybe 500 handloads waiting to be fired, and that's just in the last year). When I get tired or size some tougher cases (hot loaded 44 Magnums) I'll put a dab of lube on my finger every 10th round or so).

Yes, the 9mm carbide die use a straight carbide ring, and yes, the 9mm case is tapered, but in the many thousands of rounds I've reloaded, not a single problem related to these two facts...

Last edited by mikld; 09-12-2021 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 09-05-2021, 02:56 PM
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This thread got me wondering, so I went and looked at my 9mm dies. I have 2 RCBS, one dated '90 and one with no date; both have a full length carbide inserts. My Lee die of unknown age also has full length carbide insert in it.
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Old 09-05-2021, 03:04 PM
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This is why I love this place. Thanks so much to all of you.
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Old 09-05-2021, 04:50 PM
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It "oversises" the base ... at times leaving a wonky looking line and bulge at the base where the carbide ring stops sizing .
Some don't mind the wonky base line / bulge and not all brands of brass are as bad as other brands .
If the wonky look bothers you simple replace the carbide with a old school steel die and spray some case lube on them ... Even when using carbide dies , it's much easier to size them when they have a little lube on them .
I went back to a CH4D Steel sizer die because I didn't like the wonky looking base ... case lube doesn't bother me .
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Old 09-05-2021, 05:13 PM
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it makes my head hurt as to how many 9mm carbide dies RCBS, lee, Hornady, etc, have sold and how many billions of rounds have been sized with those dies and without any lube. I think you can ignore any worries about whether the die leaves a straight or taper. just set the sizing die so the shell holder does a bit of a cam over just like the instructions you got with the die. this step (at least)in reloading isn't rocket science. Save that for powder charges and projectile choices.
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Old 09-06-2021, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just another 22 shooter View Post
This thread got me wondering, so I went and looked at my 9mm dies. I have 2 RCBS, one dated '90 and one with no date; both have a full length carbide inserts. My Lee die of unknown age also has full length carbide insert in it.
I just checked 3 of my Lee sizing dies. None have "full length" carbide inserts. The ones I looked at (and have believed for many years) use only a short insert, 7/16"-1/2" long) in the mouth of the die. Carbide is difficult to machine (all the carbide I worked with hat to be ground with a diamond impregnated grinding wheel). To grind a tapered ID can be done but it adds greatly to the cost of the die, more than I think I'd pay when short straight inserts work quite well...
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Old 09-07-2021, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
I just checked 3 of my Lee sizing dies.
None have "full length" carbide inserts.
The ones I looked at (and have believed for many years) use only a short insert, 7/16"-1/2" long) in the mouth of the die.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
A .371" pin can go ~.409" inside before it's stopped.

A .370" pin will go fully inside & is not stopped by the insert's smallest diameter.

These rough measurements closely mirror SAAMI 9x19 specs.
.

That estimate of your carbide insert's depth (.430"-.500") is essentially what I got & mine is clearly tapered.

You may not have a pin gage set to check yours but as a reloader I'm sure you have a digital caliper.

Why don't you use it to verify exactly what your carbide sized 9x19 cases measures at their mouth & at the web.

I doubt they're straight with no taper.

.

PS: I'm sure manufacturers long ago overcame the early problems they had machining tungsten carbide.
Heck, they've made jewelry out of it for decades.

.
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Old 09-07-2021, 12:36 PM
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About 25-30 years ago when I got into 9mm reloading using my Dillon 550, I purchased the Dillon carbide die set and not long after that, I was notified by Dillon that I should request a new carbide resizing die to replace the original one. I forgot what the problem was, but the original die seemed to be OK and the rounds chambered and fired OK in both my DWM Luger and my P89 Ruger. I have always used the new die since, which also works fine.

I think the problem was that the original die sized the cases too small, and that the replacement die corrected that issue. I don't recall a taper issue.

Does anyone recall this recall/issue, and what the problem really was?

Thanks

Jack
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Old 09-07-2021, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
.


.

That estimate of your carbide insert's depth (.430"-.500") is essentially what I got & mine is clearly tapered.

You may not have a pin gage set to check yours but as a reloader I'm sure you have a digital caliper.

Why don't you use it to verify exactly what your carbide sized 9x19 cases measures at their mouth & at the web.

I doubt they're straight with no taper.

.

PS: I'm sure manufacturers long ago overcame the early problems they had machining tungsten carbide.
Heck, they've made jewelry out of it for decades.

.
Thanks, but I have no need, no curiosity about my sizing dies. I don't think any of my dies have processed less than 5,000 cases and all work just fine. As a retired lifelong machinist mechanic I am familiar with carbide cutting tools, sharpening and shaping (and carbide is still as hard to machine as it was 30 years ago.) and measuring equipment (I tossed 3 digital calipers and kept my 2 dial calipers which are just as accurate and waaaaay less trouble).
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Old 09-07-2021, 09:16 PM
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This may be obvious, but you bought the finest reloading 4 die set possible according to the Owner's Manual that came with that die set. Did you read the instructions?
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Old 09-08-2021, 12:22 AM
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This may be obvious, but you bought the finest reloading 4 die set possible according to the Owner's Manual that came with that die set. Did you read the instructions?
for one of the other Lee die sets, but not the 9mm one.
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Old 09-08-2021, 08:39 AM
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I had to look into this:

I have 2 RCBS carbide die sets #20515.

One was made in 1975, the other made in 1984. Both have been used to make tens of thousands of 9mm rounds.

I spot checked a few of my 9mm competition ammo and they are all alike:

Base is 0.389 (instead of 0.391 per spec) with a slight taper going to 0.380 at the mouth (precisely where the spec is). No hour glass.

I stay away from Lee equipment.
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Old 09-08-2021, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer X View Post
for one of the other Lee die sets, but not the 9mm one.
You read one set of instructions ... you've read them all ...right?
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Old 09-08-2021, 10:51 AM
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Actually, I think the OP had a very good question. It's good to think that way if you're doing something like loading ammo.

I remember Nonte writing that 380's are cylindrical, and he used to push them up through his sizing die - in the same manner that Lee bullet sizing dies operate. I never could pull off that case sizing trick with my Lee dies back when I was loading 380's.
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Old 09-09-2021, 02:56 AM
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You read one set of instructions ... you've read them all ...right?
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Well, maybe not for the Kool-Aid...? (PRE-SWEETENED)

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Old 09-09-2021, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikld View Post
Thanks, but I have no need, no curiosity about my sizing dies.
Sorry, I just figured rather than keep repeating the same accusation you'd want to know for sure one way or the other.

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Old 09-10-2021, 07:05 PM
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Jan. 2021- RCBS has tapered carbide insert for 9mm. The expander is "M" type.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ting.3604/full

Last edited by 243winxb; 09-10-2021 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 09-10-2021, 11:18 PM
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People make too much of tapered cases. The die makers figured it out long ago.
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Old 09-11-2021, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
You read one set of instructions ... you've read them all ...right?
Gary
My thought was why would the Lee 4 die carbide 9mm set have different instructions than my Lee 4 die carbide .40S&W/10mm set, or my Lee 4 die carbide .38 SPL/.357 Mag set.
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Old 09-11-2021, 08:12 AM
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Just for grins I went and sized some FC headstamp cases with three different 9mm sizing dies. I sized three cases with each die. They were consistent within the three-case groups. Here's what I got:

Redding Pro Comp: .386 base .370 mouth
Hornady Custom Grade: same as the Redding
RCBS 1980 steel die: .386 base .368 mouth

The seemingly narrow base measurement is because of where I measured it. Since the shell holder blocks the die from going all the way down I measured with the case in the shell holder, along with a thin washer as a spacer to be sure I was measuring a sized portion of the case. I was really trying to quantify the taper and how the two carbide dies compared to the old steel die.

Not a spit's worth of difference between the three to me.
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Old 09-11-2021, 08:15 AM
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What’s the part # for the RCBS tapered expander plug ? Thanks.


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Old 09-11-2021, 09:40 AM
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I just checked my 1980's era Lyman die set. The carbide ring in mine is full length and tapered.
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Old 09-11-2021, 11:03 AM
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So, thanks, again! Due to this thread I am now aware that I can just obtain other Lyman M-type expander plugs to go with my Lyman M-type Die for other pistol calibers.

You can learn something new every day!

Cheers!

P.S. You can also obtain Lyman M-type expander plugs for use with the LEE Universal Expander Die. Search for M-type Expander and look for a links to ps-2.kev009.com.

Last edited by STORMINORMAN; 09-11-2021 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Add a P.S.
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Old 09-11-2021, 12:36 PM
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I just checked on the Lee web page and the 9 mm Luger die is full length sizing. I went to the bench and had three cases sitting on the bench. One is a Hornady nickel, one is a brass Blazer, and one is a brass CBC. I put them in the press and stroked it two time for each case. Then put the mic to each of them. They all showed .372 at the neck and .389 at the base. They were range pickups so probably shot out of different guns. My die has a full length carbide insert pressed into the die. So it is a full size die and not just a neck die like some suggest. Maybe they did in the old days but not now.
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