Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:29 PM
snowman snowman is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rural NW Ohio
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 4,183
Liked 1,969 Times in 915 Posts
Default How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?

May be impossible to answer with any degree of certainty. Nevertheless I hear repeatedly both here and elsewhere that the only stupid question is the one that's not asked -so there it is.

Here may be some helpful information. I'm getting ready to load all my .44mag Starline cases the second time(bought them new and loaded & fired them all myself, with the same load and in the same gun). I really like the brass, but there is some significant variation in case length, and all are shorter than the standard length given in the reloading manuals of 1.280(from .009 to .017 shorter in their fired condition).

What I would like to do is trim them to the same length before sizing, in order to obtain a reasonably consistent crimp(not a perfectionist -just would like more consistency this time around). But I don't want them too short either, and don't know how short is too short. I know that the compression in the sizing die lengthens them, but I don't know how much.

Thought some experts here might be able to provide some enlightenment.

By the way, these are for long-range target work/fun in a 629 DX. Using a full charge of H110 under a 210gr JHP.

As always, many thanks for your time, friends.
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-2021, 11:01 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,982
Likes: 546
Liked 3,349 Times in 1,720 Posts
Default

Case length growth-actually stretching-varies widely according to how much the brass is stretched during firing and the following resizing. And a bunch of other factors. As a result all the trimming instructions I've ever read are to trim AFTER resizing as that's the condition it'll be in when you go to seat the bullet. Right out of the forming dies, there's going to be some variation in case length, especially of straight wall rimmed cases where the headspace is controlled by the rim. Frankly, I've got some .44 brass that's near the 50 year mark and the one time I tried trimming, very few cases needed it.

FWIW, I measured some new, never loaded/fired .308 match brass and found each example was either at or near the listed trim length of 2.05 in. Out of curiousity I ran a couple of cases through a sizing die. The case body didn't seem to touch the die, the neck did. One pass through the sizing die and expanding the neck grew the cases almost exactly 0.005 inches. But that's a bottleneck catridge.

If you just gotta do something, I'd suggest running the cases through the sizing die and set your trim length at the specified 1.275 in. What needs trimmed gets trimmed, what doesn't ignore. Methinks you're over thinking this. A handgun isn't a bench rest rifle.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 09-08-2021, 11:33 PM
Imissedagain's Avatar
Imissedagain Imissedagain is offline
US Veteran
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,316
Likes: 1,383
Liked 2,531 Times in 1,178 Posts
Default

Size then trim to spec.
The ones less than 1.285" can be trimmed to be equal as well to make the roll crimps consistent.

Measure the cases before sizing and then after to get an average.

I treated my eyes and time remaining to a good set of digital calipers not long ago.
The new little digital, Mitutoyo 500 series, for our loading chores and the old big one is for the Iowa's crew..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 960B7231-450A-4A5C-A324-98FC8D3F80E6.jpg (25.5 KB, 49 views)
__________________
Have Fun/Stay Safe

Last edited by Imissedagain; 09-08-2021 at 11:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-09-2021, 01:00 AM
teletech teletech is online now
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 455
Likes: 46
Liked 445 Times in 203 Posts
Default

How much does it rain in a storm?
As others have said, you can't predict it with any accuracy. Case shape, the cleanliness of the brass and dies, so many factors. I've even seen some cases get shorter in sizing.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-09-2021, 01:13 AM
ReloadforFun ReloadforFun is online now
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Liked 80 Times in 43 Posts
Default

As was mentioned, size, then trim. At that point the firing/shortening, sizing/lengthening should not present problems for a straight wall case.

Bottle-neck cases are the ones that grow in length when fired due to the pressure flowing brass from the shoulder to the neck.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #6  
Old 09-09-2021, 09:57 AM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In The Woods Of S.C.
Posts: 6,308
Likes: 8,408
Liked 8,899 Times in 3,201 Posts
Default

I have in over 45 years of reloading never trimmed a pistol or revolver case. I do on bottle necked rifle cartridges.
__________________
S&W Accumulator
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 09-09-2021, 11:24 AM
BLUEDOT37's Avatar
BLUEDOT37 BLUEDOT37 is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: N.E. OKLA.
Posts: 5,669
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,520 Times in 2,905 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
...case length, and all are shorter than the standard length given in the reloading manuals of 1.280(from .009 to .017 shorter in their fired condition).
Fired cases are shorter because the case has expanded & the case walls are bowed out.

Once you size them, & straighten the case walls out, the change in the measured length is proportionally longer to the difference which varies with the load's pressure & the chamber it was fired in.

Size the cases first, then trim them.

If needed, reduce the diameter of your trimmer's pilot to fit the sized case.

.
__________________
FotoTime ate my pictures
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #8  
Old 09-09-2021, 11:30 AM
stansdds stansdds is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,998
Likes: 10,083
Liked 7,327 Times in 3,530 Posts
Default

Straight wall cases stretch very little to nothing at all. I will trim revolver brass once, never had to trim it again. I once trimmed hundreds of 45 ACP cases, chasing best accuracy for USPSA competition loads. I don't think I really gained anything in that effort and all the brass was eventually lost in matches. In big matches, you were not allowed to police your brass, that was payment for the services of the range officers.


Bottle neck cases are a different story. Typically, the case neck will stretch as the case comes out of the die, the expander ball swages the case neck against the die and that will stretch the brass.
__________________
VCDL, GOA, NRA
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 09-09-2021, 12:40 PM
dla dla is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,019
Likes: 273
Liked 412 Times in 245 Posts
Default

This doesn't answer your question, but if you used the Lee FCD for your crimping, the case length wouldn't matter.

Last edited by dla; 09-10-2021 at 12:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-09-2021, 01:18 PM
jem102 jem102 is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: East TN
Posts: 64
Likes: 72
Liked 58 Times in 39 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Fired cases are shorter because the case has expanded & the case walls are bowed out.

Once you size them, & straighten the case walls out, the change in the measured length is proportionally longer to the difference which varies with the load's pressure & the chamber it was fired in.

Size the cases first, then trim them.

If needed, reduce the diameter of your trimmer's pilot to fit the sized case.

.

The above is what I believe you will find correct depending on what you are trying to accomplish.
It would be an easy step this next time out to "group" the various case lengths, within reason, reset the crimp for each batch and test them on paper by overlaying a fresh target for each case length group dead on top of the previous target. Radical crimp variation can cause accuracy issues but as already stated by others not a deal breaker in the vast majority of cases. when you peal down to the first target I think you will pleasantly surprised to find the overall mass group to be quite consistent with no outliers that would cause a poor hit unless you "pulled" that particular shot so make notes as you go round by round. This should reassure you of the "no trim needed". Having said all this "I" enjoy my handloading and do not find it a chore to trim my cases when I start to see the case mouths are rolling into the groove too high on the wheel gun as I have determined the max COL with a 10 case average when the brass was once fired with a given bullet. When "plunk" testing for the auto if the rim is past flush with the hood I will knock a few thous off that lot.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-09-2021, 02:44 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,202
Likes: 1,609
Liked 1,527 Times in 846 Posts
Default

I would think there are several factors involved with brass growth. Age of case, number of times reloaded pressures, and gun used. I started reloading 44 Magnum in the late '80s and have 5 guns chambered for the cartridge. Heavy loads in my Puma stretch cases a lot and sizing them makes them a bit longer. My Dan Wesson had "tight chambers" and growth is less, minimal.

Don't overthink this phenonium. I don't trim my 44 cases and get good consistent crimps (Lee collet crimp and Redding profile crimp), good to very good accuracy, especially from my DW 44H, and consistent neck tenison for good consistent ignition. 44 Magnum is one of my favorite cartridges and have reloaded everything from 123 gr. balls to 300 gr ingot "T-Rex Killers" for my 5, 44 Magnums.

But a lot of reloaders trim their revolver brass and no harm, no foul, the Reloading Police isn't going to raid your shop and confiscate your handloads. They are your cases, your guns, your time, so if you wanna, trim them...

Last edited by mikld; 09-09-2021 at 02:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 09-09-2021, 11:13 PM
Tim357 Tim357 is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 56
Likes: 137
Liked 58 Times in 24 Posts
Default

I've not had pistol brass grow that i remember. Generally, bottleneck rifle cases grow as they are dragged over the expander ball. Straight wall pistol brass doesnt get dragged over an expander ball, it is pushed into an expander. If anything, pistol brass tends to shorten over time, or at least stretching is held to a minimun. YMMV
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 09-10-2021, 06:54 AM
snowman snowman is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rural NW Ohio
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 4,183
Liked 1,969 Times in 915 Posts
Default

Gentlemen,

I'm tied up for several days and am unable to respond. I should be able to get back on the forum on Monday. Thanks to all for your responses.

Regards,
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-10-2021, 08:29 AM
67tempest 67tempest is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 418
Likes: 21
Liked 529 Times in 220 Posts
Default

I have been reloading the same .44 mag brass for close to 40 years and have never had to trim it. I use a very moderate powder charge and I'm not shooting for pin point accuracy, just blasting.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-10-2021, 09:15 AM
44wheelman 44wheelman is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 236
Liked 572 Times in 300 Posts
Default

Psi, chamber size, resizing die diameter, brass alloy….uuhhhg, many variables.

I also shoot a more moderate load, and after initial trimming, keep all my brass lots together, and don’t have much issue with crimping. But lead is a little more forgiving than jacketed (with respect to crimping).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 09-10-2021, 12:06 PM
gwpercle's Avatar
gwpercle gwpercle is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 5,987
Likes: 5,901
Liked 6,625 Times in 3,084 Posts
Default

Straight walled handgun brass stretch little or none after their first firing . I get a batch of new - once fired brass ... trim them all to a consistent book "trim to length"...usually between minimum and maximum ... and then reload that batch untill they wear out ...

Lets call it ... trim em' once and be done with it .
Gary
__________________
Certified Cajun
NRA Member
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 09-10-2021, 01:19 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,202
Likes: 1,609
Liked 1,527 Times in 846 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim357 View Post
I've not had pistol brass grow that i remember. Generally, bottleneck rifle cases grow as they are dragged over the expander ball. Straight wall pistol brass doesnt get dragged over an expander ball, it is pushed into an expander. If anything, pistol brass tends to shorten over time, or at least stretching is held to a minimun. YMMV
Any time a brass tune is swaged, it will lengthen. Sizing (aka swaging) does not remove metal, it just dislaces (moves) it. On a straight walled case the easiest place for the metal to move to is toward the mouth, thus making he case grow in length... "Metal Working 101"

Or at least when I size any of my 9 different caliber handgun cases...

Last edited by mikld; 09-10-2021 at 01:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-10-2021, 05:21 PM
SMSgt SMSgt is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,280
Likes: 1,767
Liked 4,546 Times in 1,837 Posts
Default

I'm not sure why anyone would be concerned about the length of a case before resizing.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 09-12-2021, 11:17 PM
snowman snowman is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rural NW Ohio
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 4,183
Liked 1,969 Times in 915 Posts
Default

Thanks to all for your time.

My curiosity got the best of me and I did a little exercise/experiment to see what kind of answer it might give me. As the pictures show, I chose 20 fired cases at random, measured the length of each and recorded it on a post-it note, then sized the case and measured it again.

Every case, with one exception, stretched from .007 to .008(the exception stretched .009). This is the answer to my question. For those who didn't think that straight-wall pistol cases stretched, I don't know what to tell you. My dial caliper, though not top of the line, I've found to be accurate whenever I've used it.

I was struck somewhat by the consistency of the stretch, since one or two of you mentioned that there would be a large variation, which I expected also. All but one were within .001 of each other.

I discovered that the variation in length between unsized cases, with one exception, was only .003 or less. Seventeen of those were within .002 of each other. I was mistaken in my initial post indicating that there was significant variation in the case lengths. All, however, are at least .007 to .010 short of standard .44mag length, after resizing.

Some are wondering the rhyme and reason behind my question(and this little experiment). It's virtually impossible to adequately explain, but trimming cases after resizing, in my particular setup, is somewhat problematic and definitely inconvenient. There are ways around the issue, but none are very satisfactory in my estimation. I realize that trimming after sizing is the better, and standard way of doing it.

Fortunately, given the surprising consistency of case lengths both before and after sizing has convinced me not to trim the cases. A couple thousandths or so won't cause any problem with crimp. I will be chamfering and reaming the case mouths, which I didn't do when they were new; and this caused some rough travel thru the sizing die and a little difficulty seating the bullets.

Thanks again, friends. Hope this post was reasonably clear.

Regards,
Andy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 006.jpg (124.4 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg 007.jpg (123.4 KB, 5 views)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-13-2021, 11:01 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,982
Likes: 546
Liked 3,349 Times in 1,720 Posts
Default

One minor quibble with your last post: your definitiion of case stretch. Case stretch is a permanent change in case length caused by brass flow. A good example is some .308 brass that's supposed to be 2.015 inch maximum OAL. I had some sized brass (reloaded 5-6 times) that run over length by up to 0.025 inches. What you described is the change in length caused by reducing the outside diameter of the fired case by swaging the case back to unfired diameter. The brass itself isn't stretching, it's just changing shape.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 09-13-2021, 03:17 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,202
Likes: 1,609
Liked 1,527 Times in 846 Posts
Default

Quote:
...but trimming cases after resizing, in my particular setup, is somewhat problematic and definitely inconvenient. There are ways around the issue, but none are very satisfactory in my estimation.
Just for my curiosity; care to share why?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-16-2021, 02:06 AM
BLUEDOT37's Avatar
BLUEDOT37 BLUEDOT37 is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die? How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: N.E. OKLA.
Posts: 5,669
Likes: 4,998
Liked 7,520 Times in 2,905 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
One minor quibble with your last post: your definitiion of case stretch.
Case stretch is a permanent change in case length caused by brass flow.
The brass itself isn't stretching, it's just changing shape.
Yep, it's like he didn't even read what we tried to tell him.

.
__________________
FotoTime ate my pictures
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 09-16-2021, 11:28 AM
zeke zeke is offline
Member
How much length does a case gain in the sizing die?  
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NW Wi
Posts: 1,232
Likes: 796
Liked 1,078 Times in 496 Posts
Default

In most all instances am familiar with, pistol brass shrinks in length over time/multiple resizings. This happens because the brass "flow" is downward. This can actually be measured with calibers, and can cause problems in tight (match) cut semi auto chambers. This is the reason companies offer special push through sizing dies that can restore the original length, or get close. The only exception to this have actually witnessed was shooting high pressure mag brass in a rifle with longer chamber cut.

The last batch of starline 44 mag brass bought was on the short side, with some below min oal. If there was significant enough variation may have considered trimming them all. A Lee factory crimp or Redding profile crimp die can work with greater variation of brass length.

You may need to be observant with the shorter starline brass, as have witnessed 44 mag loads with shorter bullets fit in a 696 chamber.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Second Case Sizing pinkymingeo Reloading 28 12-21-2020 04:45 PM
Full length sizing vs necksizing .223 mmb617 Reloading 19 01-01-2020 10:40 PM
full length sizing .223 brass with Lee Deluxe turret press 1sailor Reloading 6 07-05-2013 07:49 PM
case sizing for S&W 40 and 9mm stev32k Reloading 15 10-22-2012 12:10 AM
Case trimming and trim to length vs Max length Rule3 Reloading 5 06-08-2011 04:30 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:47 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)