Dear friend of mine and I had a chat about our rifle .308 brass casings. The topic revolved around does having everything the same, ie OAL, mfg. year of production, weight, inside neck reaming, outside neck reaming, concentricity, .....etc.

His contention is that when everything is identical you HAVE to have much more accurate cartridges.

My Remington 40X .308 doesn't much care, as long as it gets a high quality bullet (168/175 Match) and a consistent powder charge.

I have used processed military casings and commercial casings like Federal Gold and have seen no significant difference.

I have always believed that accuracy is in the barrel, bullet and powder charge and that the casing just holds it all together....

What say you fellow forum members?

Randy

How do you define accuracy?
MOA?
"Benchrest"?
Competitive benchrest standards are very stringent. 1/2 MOA, which would be fine in most realistic applications, is pretty mediocre/poor by benchrest standards. To get below the 1/4 MOA level usually takes some work, and certainly won't happen by accident. To actually win in benchrest, you'll need to be able to get well under .200".

Case fit to chamber is tremendously important. The case body up through the shoulder should be a "slip fit", meaning as tight as possible with no binding. The combination of bullet diameter plus case neck wall thickness x 2 should be perhaps .001" under the chamber neck diameter.
To achieve this, your resizing die (neck sizer!) has to be either a matched tool to the chamber or something like the Redding neck dies with interchangeable sizing bushings. By the same token, a benchrest level gunsmith will cut a chamber (the neck specifically) to a very exacting degree such that case necks must be turned to get the cartridge to chamber on a closed bolt.
In addition, consistency of neck wall thickness must be accounted for to make the above achievable. If you're shooting, say, Lapua brass out of a 6mm PPC, you can likely get great results out of the box.
But, going back to your Remington, or for that matter your friend's perspective, if the variables of case neck thickness, chamber dimensions (not to mention bore condition) and/or resizing die dimensions are beyond the above parameters, you'll likely not notice much difference in brass make, etc.

Of course, there's much more, even staying within the confines of cases, ie: primer pockets, case capacity, flash hole treatment, annealing, concentricity....
At one time, competitive benchrest practice was to use the same case for each shot, reloading at the bench while you shoot!

But, there are so many more variables beyond the scope of our limited space: bedding, optics, trigger, wind, the bench itself....on and on. As each of these are accounted for, the more your one specific factor, namely brass cases, become more critical.

A basic rule of reloading for ultimate accuracy is that consistency if the major element. That applies to every component (case, bullet, powder type/lot/charge, etc).

Many of the top competitive shooters go to great lengths with their cartridge cases. Measurements at every dimension, weight of the case (an indication of internal volume), primer pockets, flash holes, concentricity, little or nothing is overlooked.

Of course, the same is true with every part of the rifle.

Everything that is mass produced can be expected to be within a certain range of production tolerances, accounting for variations inevitably caused by the tooling in use. It is nothing more than a happy coincidence when the finished result falls within the targeted goals for every part and machined surface.

Very few sporting users will have the technical skills or tools required to even begin to check every part or component, and even fewer will have the time or budget to pursue such goals.

If you are happy with your rifle's performance that is all that truly matters.

Many years ago had the opportunity to talk with John Amber and the head engineer at Ruger. When discussing rifle barrels the Marlin engineer said the last 6”-8” of the barrel was all that mattered. Have been a reloader for over 40 years still am puzzled by his comment.

In my rifles some manufacturers rounds are extremely accurate and others I wouldn’t use to shoot at elephant size game. The only difference is the ammunition but if you put that same ammunition in a different rifle you may or may not get the same results.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

It all depends on how OCD you are .
I have always said that benchrest shooting was the perfect sport for those with OCD .... all those little things to obsess over ... YES !!!

In theory ... the more consistent all the components are then the more consistent the ammo will be and ...in Theory ... the more consistent thus accurate the ammo thus groups will be ... But we all know what Yogi Berra said about Theory ... In theory there is no difference between theory and practice ...but
In Practice there is .

What ever you do ... DON'T sell that rifle ... they only come along once in a lifetime and rare is the accurate rifle that only needs a consistent powder charge and a good bullet to shoot well . They happen but only 1 in 1,000 and you got one !
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

An old Highpower and Service Rifle competitor I knew (RIP Jack) always said that "The last inch of the barrel is the final set of instructions that the bullet ever gets."

There is one theory about barrels that the last 4, 6, or 8 inches should be "choked"! Anschutz uses this theory. and the diameter is .002 smaller than the rest of the barrel. For awhile Ruger did that with their hammer forged barrels, and strove for a tapper that was .003" spread out over the length of the barrel.

I have had rifles that the bore was pitted somewhere in the first 8 to 10" and still shot well. The last of the barrel was beautiful and the crown was perfect! These would shoot several shots in the .010" group size but there would be about 3/10 flyers. The flyers could take a group to .250" which is still a great gun or they could open up to 1.0" (That still hunts, but won't compete!) On these guns it is believe that the slight spread of velocity changing the harmonics of the barrel is to blame.

I have been talking mostly about 22 RF target rifles, but I have 6 PPC and 22 BR rifles too.

Neck Wall Thickness:

there are 2 standard neck wall thickness'. On older designs .010", examples are 22 Hornet, 38-40 & 44-40 and 30-30. On newer designs .015 for 308 Win 30-06 Gov't and most everything else. In Bench Rest, .010 is the standard of the 1970's when they were designed, but it was found that it only mattered in the guns chamber fit. So, the thicker neck cartridges don't need turning. Example: My 22 BR has the "Remington" chamber and uses necks turned to .010-.011. My friends much newer Savage 6mm BR have the "Norma" chamber and use .015" neck walls.

The theory on this is, How consistent is the neck tension? A friend had a custom 6.5mm x 284 Winchester. In forming the brass. The bullet axis is off center in the neck, making the group about 1 inch at 100 yards, but by getting the thick side turned so the axis is centered that gun shoots .020" at 100 yds. (That gun went to Iraq and dispatched several turbans at 800 to 1200 yards! Done by 1st Force Recon snipers in 2007-08. I had a chance to buy this gun and like a dummy turned it down!!)

I do own a custom 6mm x 284 for varmint shooting. It has a .015" no neck turn chamber. I don't know exactly how accurate it is. But at 525 yards it has grouped 1.0 to 1.25" 3 different times! When developing brass and loads for this gun, I used 284 Winchester virgin brass and Norma and Lapua brass both in 6.5x284. When I came to the bullet it likes (70gr Sierra Blitzking) and the powder charge (51gr IMR 4831 SC) using Federal 210 Match primer. I loaded 10 of each brand of fully prepped brass with that load. The Norma and Lapua rounds were the same 10 round group .017 at 100 yards, the Winchester rounds were 1.370" at 100 yards! QUALITY BRASS DOES MATTER!

Ivan

Accuracy.......that depends on what you are asking your rifle to do doesn't it?

As a competitive shooter in NRA High Power/Service Rifle an accurate rifle MUST be able to shoot in the X ring at the given distances of 200-300-600 yards. If it is out , I put it there.

The same is true for when I shot NRA 3-4 position smallbore....the rifle HAD to be able to get into and stay in the X ring to be competitive.

This is quite different accuracy that what a benchrest shooter is striving for. The benchrest shooter wants every round in the same hole.

So, my 40x Remington is MORE than competitive across the course, might even be passable as a benchrest rifle.

Group size verses score, the high score usually has a tight group size but is not always the winner if the group is in the wrong place.

Lones Wigger Sr. always taught me that a 200 no X always wins over a 199-19x

Randy

PS.

Thanks for the great comments everyone!!

Well said. Waaaay back in 2000, I shot a 200-10X in my relay in the Wimbledon Cup (1000 yard) match at Camp Perry, and made the shootoff for the championship. There were a BUNCH of 199-14,15,16 Xs on the posted final scoreboard, and some 200's. I didn't think my meager 10Xs would hold up, and wasn't aware I'd posted the high score in my relay, until I saw someone pointing at my name on the range officer's tower whiteboard, asking another shooter "who the heck is that?" (Michelle Gallagher was 13 years old, I think, at the time. She won......I finished 3rd in the shootoff)

I see it as 15% barrel, 10% bullet, 10% powder, 5% primer and.....
60% on whats going on between your ears.

I do like a case that is at least 80% full of powder........

I also have powders that do better with a different primer.........

Some rifles like steaks and others like fish...............
just got to get to know them.

+1;
on keeping that rifle.

In addition to case, etc., uniformity, one factor in getting good grouping performance which is often ignored is finding the optimum bullet seating depth. Most bench rest shooters are aware of that.

The very thing that puts a benchrest champions rifle in the winners circle makes it a terrible choice for High Power and Hunting.......tolerances are TOO tight.

"Right tool for the job at hand" my Dad always taught me.

Randy

PS....

I always wanted to buy an unacceptable barrel from a bench rest shooter and go clean house Over the Course.....

I have NEVER worried about that level of perfection. With MUCH LESS rigor, I have several Remington 788's (.222, .223, .22-250 etc) that shoot under an inch at 100 yds. (almost) all day long. All I ever needed was to hit a woodchuck between 100 to 300 yds... and my striving for mediocrity has always met that criteria. Take it easy and you will sleep better IMHO
p.s. forgot to mention that I glass-bed my rifles and THAT does help a LOT :-)

J.

Barrel, bedding, bullets!

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Good shooting.

Used to have discussion with my late shooting & handloading partner #1 , who was obsessive about case prep .

Very Oversimplified :

As long as the baseline brass isn't terrible , it's not the limiting factor , until the rest of the totality is well under 0.5 moa , using only basic loading protocols .

When I shot the 308............

I bought a case lot, so the brass would all be as close as possible.
The OAL and flash hole were the only two things that I checked out.The flash hole had to be as close to center, for it to be my target loads.

Lupa has a small .059 hole and Remington has a .080 size hole and they both work
but some say the .059 open up with Sinclair reaming tool to .062" may lower ES with some powders and bullets. I did clean out and "Round" the flash hole with a small drill bit, however.

Is neck sizing needed?
Only if the neck is out of round and I only skim off the "High spots" and leave the main brass of the neck uncut, as much as possible.
I do not ream the inside of the case but will bevel the inside lip just a little to remove factory "crud".

Chamber fit.
This is where it is at, for fit and accuracy in all rifles, no matter who makes them.
.308 chambers can range from .330 up to a large .345 in this caliber.
Lupua brass can measure .337 to a fired .341 in some match rifles.
A Federal loaded case can measure .342 before it is fired.
You do need to find out how tight or loose your chamber is, for the case to fit properly, with .006" slop as a maximum for expansion, for good accuracy, some want .003" if a "Nitpicker".

What is free bore?
The "Deep Throat" of a rifle design, can make or break a rifle if heavy, long bullets are needed for long range shooting.
This is why we have what is called OAL , or overall length of the load or round.
Many state that if the bullet comes into contact with the rifles lands & grooves, high pressuses will happen. This will depend on the amount and type of powder used, however the big problem here, is that this round, MUST be fired.
If it is removed from the rifle, the bullet might stay locked into the rifling, which will allow the powder to empty out of the case as it is removed, not a good thing.

Most shooters try for a .02" distance away from the rifling, if they need a LONG OAL......... if it will fit and feed in their magazine, or ammo box.

I will not get into powder and primers, since that is another big can of worms to open.

Later.

When I got in to 308 reloading I checked brass volume and picked one type of brass that was the all the same. I ended up using GI Match brass. My M1A ended up shooting 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with peep sights. Good enough for 70 year old eyes.
SWCA 892

Uniformity is nice, but personally I can’t shoot the difference. Powder charge, bullet weight, etc. are as uniform as I can make them, but neck turning, weighing case, reaming primer pockets and all that are just a waste of time for me.

Uniformity isn't so much about the diameter of a flash hole. It is about consistent diameter and not having burrs that change the flashes distribution.

Free Bore and seating depth: Different guns and different applications make this a touchy subject! I have several Rifles that respond best to just touching the lands! and others that need .025" of free bore. You need to check this during load development. None of my rifles like "The Jam", where the bullet is seated past the length of touching the lands. This is where the problem of the bullet being stuck in the lands and coming out of the case when extracting an unfired round. The problem has two negative consequences, first is the bullet being in the way and needing to use a ram rod to remove it. The second is the powder spilling into the guts of the action and the ensuing removal.

BTW: Many of the actions used for Bench Rest shooting are Bank Vault strong and can handle pressures above 75,000psi!

Ivan

Just a note on "Your" OAL for your shooting loads.

My best shooting buddy found out the hard way that his Remington rifle...........
did not have the same chamber spec's.......
as my Winchester rifle.

Yep, he chamberd a round to check shoulder & bolt pressure and on removing the round........
here came the powder & case, minus the bullet.

We had a cleaning rod but I had to go back to the drawing board.

If I can kill Gawdless Commie Paper at 300yds with just BUIS or my 2 MOA Green Dot, it's accurate enough.


I'm not a hunter and I only compete with myself, so YMMV.