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  #51  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:13 AM
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I refer everyone to” Hatcher’s Notebook, pages 525-527 concerning smokeless and black powder fires. By chance one does not know who Maj. General Hatcher was suggest they look him up And find a copy of his book. Interest in firearms and ammunition will eventually lead one to his book.
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:26 AM
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My vote is for a six pound pipe bomb. A certain NYC brownstone comes to mind.
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Old 10-14-2021, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon651 View Post
LP gas bottles of all sizes generally don't go boom - they burn like a roaring jet engine! The one thing people are forgetting here is that if this was an LP explosion there would be plenty of evidence of subsequent fire because LP fires don't "blow themselves out".

LP Gas Fire - YouTube

There are plenty of flammables and explosives in a typical garage even without reloading going on in an enclosed space. Spray something in the air, gasoline fumes from a gas can with a leaky cap, plenty of petrochemicals in convenient consumer-sized pressurized spray bottles, fumes from paint and other household chemicals - then the fan for the AC air handler located in the same room clicks on or perhaps the compressor motor in an outdoor freezer or someone presses the button for the garage door opener which generates a spark, then... You get the idea.
I have worked a fire where a tank BLEVE'd but it would be rare to see that inside a house. Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion, will go boom and extinguish a lot of small flames. LP or Nat Gas fire can be put out easily but will reignite just as easy if the heat or fuel isn't removed.
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:50 AM
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My vote is for a six pound pipe bomb. A certain NYC brownstone comes to mind.
That possibility came to my mind as well.
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Old 10-15-2021, 10:26 AM
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My vote is for a six pound pipe bomb. A certain NYC brownstone comes to mind.
That certainly is a possibility, much more so than the "cooking meth" guess a few people seem to be stuck on.

There is just one thing missing that would help convince me of the pipe-bomb option (there are many more I would have to see to agree with the meth lab explanation but this one would have to be included):

CRIME SCENE TAPE!
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:08 PM
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That certainly is a possibility, much more so than the "cooking meth" guess a few people seem to be stuck on.

How are you so sure that he wasn't building a pipe bomb while he was cooking Meth.

Some people can do more than one thing at a time, ya know.
This *IS* Florida.
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:31 PM
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Let's look at the pictures, shall we...

The damage is confined to an area at the back of garage or the room behind it. The resulting damage indicates an explosion but not much (if any) of a resulting fire. This is backed up by the fact there is lots of small debris and a partial collapse of the truss system over the point of origin but the rest of the house remains intact with no smoke staining or sooty runoff. In fact, there is no water or sooty runoff from the fire department down the driveway, where you would expect it to be. Witnesses also say they heard "an explosion".

This was not a natural gas explosion (from a gas leak to a clothes dryer or gas water heater, either of which you would expect in that area of the house). If it was, the damage would be much (MUCH) greater - with possible secondary damage to surrounding structures. The same can be said if it was a meth lab - plus there would be more evidence.

The news reported that investigators already made the determination that it was a result of the reloading activity and the smokeless powder. There is nothing shown that contradicts this conclusion. I would not be surprised if the homeowner/reloader may have had a fan or an AC unit running in his work area that may have stirred up some powder, or possibly tipped over his container by accident. Get enough of it airborne and it WILL explode. Heck, wheat dust will explode. I also wouldn't hesitate to believe that he may have been smoking or was using some electrical equipment that may have generated an open spark.

The most amazing part about what I see is that he is actually using his garage FOR A CAR!

Never underestimate "Florida Man"...
Smokeless powder is not dust and will not explode unconfined in some kind of chamber or something that will build pressure. Also the article did not say the investigation determined that it was the result of reloading or powder. It said they determined it was not a crime. If the house filled with gas from a stove leak or being on and was ignited that would not cause the dryer to be damaged if it was in the garage.
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:10 PM
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How are you so sure that he wasn't building a pipe bomb while he was cooking Meth.

Some people can do more than one thing at a time, ya know.
This *IS* Florida.
Here's my observations and reasoning:
* The damage does not match an incident with cooking meth.
* The lack of a post-explosion fire does not match an incident with cooking meth.
* The lack of ancillary evidence does not match an incident with cooking meth (remains of supplies, fuel, equipment, etc. - stuff that would easily be found by the responders and investigators).
* And finally, the fact that law enforcement and fire investigators from several agencies already went through the aftermath and didn't say a word about this being an incident with cooking meth. I would tend to believe the pros.

As for a pipe bomb, I definitely considered that possibility. However, there are two things that go against that conclusion, even though they are not as clear-cut as what I point out above:
* The guy who got injured would have clear indications of a pipe bomb explosion - namely, shrapnel wounds from the casing materials. You wouldn't be able to hide that.
* And again, there were investigators from several agencies that went through the aftermath and not a single mention of a pipe bomb was made.

Trust me, if this had been a confirmed meth lab or pipe bomb they would have been shouting it from the rooftops - and the news coverage would have been far more extensive. I think a pipe bomb or homemade explosives may still be a possibility as an unexpected spark from a dozen different sources could have triggered the event or prematurely activated the detonator equipment, but the experts at the scene didn't seem to want to draw that particular conclusion - and they would have no reason to keep it from the press if they did.

Yes, Florida Man can be very inventive and resourceful but this is not a binary choice - he could have screwed up on a dozen different unmentioned or unrelated things and blown up his house! I'm not a reloader, but regardless if reloading was involved or not I think this is still a cautionary tale and a good reminder for those who do to please be careful!
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Old 10-15-2021, 04:29 PM
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Smokeless powder is not dust and will not explode unconfined in some kind of chamber or something that will build pressure. Also the article did not say the investigation determined that it was the result of reloading or powder. It said they determined it was not a crime. If the house filled with gas from a stove leak or being on and was ignited that would not cause the dryer to be damaged if it was in the garage.
If the house filled with gas and was ignited, there wouldn't be much left to identify it as a house.

I'm not pushing the "gas" theory because reportedly the neighbors said there was no gas service to that neighborhood - and the damage was pretty isolated to either the back of the garage or the room just behind it. The overhead pictures are pretty clear on exactly where the incident was located.

Also, if this had been a gas explosion I would expect to have seen the news mention that the gas company responded. In fact, if it was a gas explosion I would have expected that point to have been mentioned often - and loudly. In fact, I would have expected to see a report of SOMEBODY saying "Yeah, I smelled gas...".

As I said in a previous post - Florida Man is quite resourceful and inventive. He could have screwed-up a dozen different things and blown up his house!
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  #60  
Old 10-15-2021, 04:44 PM
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Here's my observations and reasoning:
* The damage does not match an incident with cooking meth.
* The lack of a post-explosion fire does not match an incident with cooking meth.
* The lack of ancillary evidence does not match an incident with cooking meth (remains of supplies, fuel, equipment, etc. - stuff that would easily be found by the responders and investigators).
* And finally, the fact that law enforcement and fire investigators from several agencies already went through the aftermath and didn't say a word about this being an incident with cooking meth. I would tend to believe the pros.

As for a pipe bomb, I definitely considered that possibility. However, there are two things that go against that conclusion, even though they are not as clear-cut as what I point out above:
* The guy who got injured would have clear indications of a pipe bomb explosion - namely, shrapnel wounds from the casing materials. You wouldn't be able to hide that.
* And again, there were investigators from several agencies that went through the aftermath and not a single mention of a pipe bomb was made.

Trust me, if this had been a confirmed meth lab or pipe bomb they would have been shouting it from the rooftops - and the news coverage would have been far more extensive. I think a pipe bomb or homemade explosives may still be a possibility as an unexpected spark from a dozen different sources could have triggered the event or prematurely activated the detonator equipment, but the experts at the scene didn't seem to want to draw that particular conclusion - and they would have no reason to keep it from the press if they did.

Yes, Florida Man can be very inventive and resourceful but this is not a binary choice - he could have screwed up on a dozen different unmentioned or unrelated things and blown up his house! I'm not a reloader, but regardless if reloading was involved or not I think this is still a cautionary tale and a good reminder for those who do to please be careful!
Even with all that smokeless powder does not explode. That is why you can order 8 lb jugs of it and have it delivered to your home. If it would do that there is not way they would ship it to you and Bass Pro Shops would not have 20 lbs of it on the shelf in the store. I don't know what it was but it was not 6 lbs of smokeless powder sitting on the reloading bench and not packed into some kind of pressure building container
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  #61  
Old 10-15-2021, 04:48 PM
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https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...ess-Powder.pdf


In this respect smokeless powder differs from blasting agents or high
explosives such as dynamite or blasting gelatin, although powder
may contain chemical ingredients common to both of these products.
Smokeless powder does not detonate like high explosives as it has
a controlled rate of burn and differs considerably in its burning characteristics from common “black powder.” Black powder burns at
essentially the same rate out in the open (unconfined) as when in a
gun.
When ignited in an unconfined state, smokeless powder burns inefficiently with an orange-colored flame. It may produce a considerable
amount of light brown, noxious smelling smoke. It leaves a residue
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:19 PM
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Since we’re throwing out theories, if there was no gas service, could it have been a home with an external propane tank? Something leaked, fuel and air mixed, something sparked. BOOM.
My Mom and Dad were camping. Mom cleaned up after dinner and apparently while wiping down the stove, she bumped the valve enough for the range to leak. Propane is heavier than air so it filled the cabinets.
Mom went in later to make coffee and when she lit the stove…….boom!
Not a big boom, but enough to blow the doors off the cabinet and cause first degree burns on her legs.
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:05 PM
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I woke up at 1:00am to what I thought was fireworks, went to the window and realized the red glow was more then fireworks. Neighbors garage was on fire and the popping was ammo.

He’s a shooter and reloader and judging the mess had a lot of equipment.


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Old 10-15-2021, 08:10 PM
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Before I moved I was jarred awake by an explosion next door. Cooking meth was the cause. Totaled the house.
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:11 PM
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He has not been arrested, and no criminal charges have been filed. Everyone who has postulated otherwise may call their first witness. . .
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:18 PM
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Our forum job is to speculate, not prosecute!

73,
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:33 PM
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Maybe it was an overdose of baked beans going off.
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Old 10-15-2021, 09:12 PM
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My GUESS; he was in the basment, with a lit segar when the pilot light on the furnace went out.
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Old 10-15-2021, 11:13 PM
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I'm betting the home owner was reloading cowboy/vintage loads using black powder.
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Old 10-15-2021, 11:29 PM
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Our forum job is to speculate, not prosecute! 73,
Rick
Smart money is on the home being built on an undiscovered pool of phlogiston, leaking up from the Earth's mantle.
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Old 10-16-2021, 07:32 AM
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Smart money is on the home being built on an undiscovered pool of phlogiston, leaking up from the Earth's mantle.
I had to look up that one. Sure, why not? LOL!
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Old 10-16-2021, 09:26 AM
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Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that this was in a confined space. A room. Like a shell casing. A spark or whatever acted as the primer. Yes, the smokeless powder is "slow burning". However, if it doesn't "explode", then why the loud report when you fire the gun? The "bang" comes from somewhere. The powder is compacted into a cylinder, which has a primer, with a bullet that is pressed into the shell in such a way as to provide a tight seal. The firing pin strikes the primer, which ignites the powder. The resulting gasses from the burning powder build enough pressure to "push", or propel the bullet out of the casing. The resulting release of all that pressure results in the loud report, or "bang", or "explosion". So, the more powder you have, the more energy being released from that ignited powder, the more pressure buildup within a confined space that has to be released somewhere. The roof, doors, windows etc all become the "bullets". No conspiracies. No hidden motives. Simple physics. Simple science.

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Old 10-16-2021, 10:38 AM
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Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that this was in a confined space. A room. Like a shell casing. A spark or whatever acted as the primer. Yes, the smokeless powder is "slow burning". However, if it doesn't "explode", then why the loud report when you fire the gun? The "bang" comes from somewhere. The powder is compacted into a cylinder, which has a primer, with a bullet that is pressed into the shell in such a way as to provide a tight seal. The firing pin strikes the primer, which ignites the powder. The resulting gasses from the burning powder build enough pressure to "push", or propel the bullet out of the casing. The resulting release of all that pressure results in the loud report, or "bang", or "explosion". So, the more powder you have, the more energy being released from that ignited powder, the more pressure buildup within a confined space that has to be released somewhere. The roof, doors, windows etc all become the "bullets". No conspiracies. No hidden motives. Simple physics. Simple science.
I doubt that the room was sealed like a cartridge casing. I've been reloading since the early '70's and I think I can say that your theory is full of holes. Now, if the "reloader" in this instance, had a lot of primers that somehow got ignited, that would be a horse of a different color. My bet is on the "smokeless powder" actually being black powder.https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...oc-Primers.pdf
Smokeless Powder and The Fire Service – SAAMI

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Old 10-16-2021, 11:23 AM
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Ok - I may as well add my two cents since this has been going on forever now, it seems.....
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Old 10-16-2021, 11:32 AM
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The news just reported filming this outside the house 15 minutes after the natural gas explosion that was fueled by a man reloading ammo with both regular, and black powder, while smoking cigarettes and cooking Meth, after the pilot light on the furnace had gone out.
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Old 10-16-2021, 01:40 PM
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You guys are thinking too small man, maybe he was reloading Howitzer shells. As the Dude said:

"This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you's. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's head. Luckily I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber."
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Old 10-16-2021, 02:27 PM
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Possible answer:

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Old 10-16-2021, 08:18 PM
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Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that this was in a confined space. A room. Like a shell casing. A spark or whatever acted as the primer. Yes, the smokeless powder is "slow burning". However, if it doesn't "explode", then why the loud report when you fire the gun? The "bang" comes from somewhere. The powder is compacted into a cylinder, which has a primer, with a bullet that is pressed into the shell in such a way as to provide a tight seal. The firing pin strikes the primer, which ignites the powder. The resulting gasses from the burning powder build enough pressure to "push", or propel the bullet out of the casing. The resulting release of all that pressure results in the loud report, or "bang", or "explosion". So, the more powder you have, the more energy being released from that ignited powder, the more pressure buildup within a confined space that has to be released somewhere. The roof, doors, windows etc all become the "bullets". No conspiracies. No hidden motives. Simple physics. Simple science.
No way he was that confined with powder unless he squeezed into a metal box filled with powder and welded it shut. It sounds to me there are many here commenting that have no idea about smokeless powder and have never used or been around it.
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Old 10-16-2021, 08:42 PM
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It's pretty ridiculous to claim that any amount of smokeless powder "blew up" a house. Burn like crazy, sure, but explode, no. A few posts said black powder would do so. A huge amount of it, maybe, but a few pounds, not a chance. Just a couple pounds would have had to have been contained in a pretty substantial container when ignited to do any significant damage to a house.

Last edited by Rifleman200-10X; 10-16-2021 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 10-16-2021, 09:30 PM
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In the movies, they just put a keg of black powder, with a fuse sticking out the side, under the bridge, and they blew the bridge, the train and all the people into the next county!

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Old 10-17-2021, 07:01 AM
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I believe it was Colonel Mustard, in the parlor, with an acetylene tank...
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Old 10-17-2021, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman1967 View Post
Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that this was in a confined space. A room. Like a shell casing. A spark or whatever acted as the primer. Yes, the smokeless powder is "slow burning". However, if it doesn't "explode", then why the loud report when you fire the gun? The "bang" comes from somewhere. The powder is compacted into a cylinder, which has a primer, with a bullet that is pressed into the shell in such a way as to provide a tight seal. The firing pin strikes the primer, which ignites the powder. The resulting gasses from the burning powder build enough pressure to "push", or propel the bullet out of the casing. The resulting release of all that pressure results in the loud report, or "bang", or "explosion".
I had no idea...
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Old 10-17-2021, 06:21 PM
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I load 45-90 with black powder. That explosion didn’t happen from loading black powder cartridges. Stop spreading nonsense.
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Old 10-17-2021, 06:33 PM
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Nobody knows what caused this. But it’s fun watching people post unrealistic scenarios . . .
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Old 10-17-2021, 08:01 PM
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We'll never know because we aren't supposed to know. Quite possibly a false flag event centered on an otherwise safe activity. There, I said it.
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Old 10-18-2021, 07:39 AM
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Plain to see who knows Hatcher and who dosen’t.
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Old 10-18-2021, 08:53 AM
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Win a cookie!
What do you think happens when you take a pound of 3031 and roll it tightly in several layers of newspaper, with a fuse, and light it up?
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:07 AM
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Win a cookie!
What do you think happens when you take a pound of 3031 and roll it tightly in several layers of newspaper, with a fuse, and light it up?
A waste of a good pound of 3031 . 😉
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:36 AM
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Maybe he is saying it was smokeless powder so his insurance company doesn't deny the claim since he failed to disclose black powder in his home.
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Old 10-18-2021, 10:03 AM
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Win a cookie!
What do you think happens when you take a pound of 3031 and roll it tightly in several layers of newspaper, with a fuse, and light it up?
Keeping it in the original metal can?
It gets hot, the can splits, some energy is converted to gas and the paper already ignited and burning from the fuse, continues to ash at a slightly faster rate.
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Old 10-18-2021, 10:15 AM
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Keeping it in the original metal can?
It gets hot, the can splits, some energy is converted to gas and the paper already ignited and burning from the fuse, continues to ash at a slightly faster rate.
Powder only was rolled in the newspaper.

Your Honor, I was just following the orders of the Cops that lived on the block...... July 4th fun in the late '70s.
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Old 10-19-2021, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman1967 View Post
Everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that this was in a confined space. A room. Like a shell casing. A spark or whatever acted as the primer. Yes, the smokeless powder is "slow burning". However, if it doesn't "explode", then why the loud report when you fire the gun? The "bang" comes from somewhere. The powder is compacted into a cylinder, which has a primer, with a bullet that is pressed into the shell in such a way as to provide a tight seal. The firing pin strikes the primer, which ignites the powder. The resulting gasses from the burning powder build enough pressure to "push", or propel the bullet out of the casing. The resulting release of all that pressure results in the loud report, or "bang", or "explosion". So, the more powder you have, the more energy being released from that ignited powder, the more pressure buildup within a confined space that has to be released somewhere. The roof, doors, windows etc all become the "bullets". No conspiracies. No hidden motives. Simple physics. Simple science.
One of the definitions of a confined space is no easy entrance or egress. If it was a confined space, and we compare it to a low pressure pistol cartridge that means the bottom of an eight foot tall room was covered in about 2"-6" of gunpowder.
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Old 10-19-2021, 04:16 PM
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One of the definitions of a confined space is no easy entrance or egress. If it was a confined space, and we compare it to a low pressure pistol cartridge that means the bottom of an eight foot tall room was covered in about 2"-6" of gunpowder.

That does not work as you would need something crimped into the top of the room and then stick the room into a metal box forming some kind of chamber. The entire theory is ridiculous. Again he stated 6 pounds of powder.
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Old 10-19-2021, 10:37 PM
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Six pounds of powder is nothing. Based on that, my house would be a munitions storage facility.
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Old 10-20-2021, 08:39 AM
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Let's read the State Fire Marshall's Report ... those boy's can tell you exactly what happened ! They Good at Investigating fires .
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Old 10-20-2021, 09:18 AM
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Let's read the State Fire Marshall's Report ... those boy's can tell you exactly what happened ! They Good at Investigating fires .
Gary
Per post 14, the investigation has been done, and concluded that it was reloading.

73,
Rick
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:53 PM
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Per post 14, the investigation has been done, and concluded that it was reloading.

73,
Rick
The article posted here and the other place I saw it did NOT say it was reloading. The owner said he was reloading and had 6 lbs of powder. They said the investigators said they found no crime they did NOT say what caused the damage.

Last edited by Golphin; 10-20-2021 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 10-20-2021, 08:55 PM
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The article posted here and the other place I saw it did NOT say it was reloading. The owner said he was reloading and had 6 lbs of powder. They said the investigators said they found no crime they did NOT say what caused the damage.

Again from post 14:

"The news reported that investigators already made the determination that it was a result of the reloading activity and the smokeless powder. There is nothing shown that contradicts this conclusion."

Sure looks like it said reloading.

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Rick
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Old 10-20-2021, 11:55 PM
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Ok everybody, let's put "closed" to this story because we are all just beating a dead horse here.

This is the EXACT quote listed in the news story from Post #1 in this thread:

"HCFR says the man told crews he was reloading "small arms ammunition" inside his home when the explosion happened. He added that there were about six pounds of smokeless powder in the house, as well.

Authorities say no evidence that has been recovered points toward any criminal charges."

Here's a quote from another news source: "HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – An explosion that destroyed a Hillsborough County home and left two people injured was apparently caused by a man reloading ammunition in his home."

Here are a few answers to some questions that have been asked in this thread:
  • Does the story specifically state that the smokeless powder blew up? No.
  • Is there any indication, either in the story or by the damage /aftermath shown in the pictures that it was a gas leak or anything of that nature? No. Local TV news specifically reports that both neighbors and firefighters never saw any fire or smelled any gas. I've attached a photo that shows NO fire damage, NO smoke/soot, and NO water runoff from either gas vapor suppression or fire suppression activity by the FD.
  • Does the evidence point to any illegal activity? No. As for a meth lab, I guarantee that the cops would be crowing about it if they found ANY evidence whatsoever.
  • Is there anything (statement, evidence, witnesses, photos, etc.) that indicate anything other than reloading was going on at the time? Sorry, but No. Honestly, if they didn't suspect that the reloading was the cause then they wouldn't have requested the ATF to assist in the investigation.

As my dad used to tell me - "If you hear hoofbeats, don't think ZEBRAS!"
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Old 10-21-2021, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon651 View Post
Ok everybody, let's put "closed" to this story because we are all just beating a dead horse here.

This is the EXACT quote listed in the news story from Post #1 in this thread:

"HCFR says the man told crews he was reloading "small arms ammunition" inside his home when the explosion happened. He added that there were about six pounds of smokeless powder in the house, as well.

Authorities say no evidence that has been recovered points toward any criminal charges."

Here's a quote from another news source: "HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, Fla. (WFLA) – An explosion that destroyed a Hillsborough County home and left two people injured was apparently caused by a man reloading ammunition in his home."

Here are a few answers to some questions that have been asked in this thread:
  • Does the story specifically state that the smokeless powder blew up? No.
  • Is there any indication, either in the story or by the damage /aftermath shown in the pictures that it was a gas leak or anything of that nature? No. Local TV news specifically reports that both neighbors and firefighters never saw any fire or smelled any gas. I've attached a photo that shows NO fire damage, NO smoke/soot, and NO water runoff from either gas vapor suppression or fire suppression activity by the FD.
  • Does the evidence point to any illegal activity? No. As for a meth lab, I guarantee that the cops would be crowing about it if they found ANY evidence whatsoever.
  • Is there anything (statement, evidence, witnesses, photos, etc.) that indicate anything other than reloading was going on at the time? Sorry, but No. Honestly, if they didn't suspect that the reloading was the cause then they wouldn't have requested the ATF to assist in the investigation.

As my dad used to tell me - "If you hear hoofbeats, don't think ZEBRAS!"
I agree with everything you said.
They did not specifically say that smokeless powder caused the explosion, only that there were 6 pounds of it in the house.
The two questions that still remain unanswered are
1) if the explosion had anything to do with smokeless powder, how do you make smokeless powder create an explosion like that? Unless it is contained in a very sturdy pressure vessel it doesn't explode - it just burns energetically.
2) If it was actually a reloading accident, what was he reloading WITH, because as stated above, it is virtually impossible to create an explosion like that with smokeless powder.

So no matter what anyone thinks, something about this does NOT add up.
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