Target loads for .38 special

[retrogun]

This caliber is new to me and I'm wondering if anyone could share some reloading specs for 25 yd target shooting with minimal recoil.

Thanks,
Retrogun

[29aholic]

Welcome to the forum

You will most standard 38spl loads fairly mild in recoil, although it will depend on the size of gun as to how mild.

Of recent I have loaded a 158gr LSWC over 4.5grs of AA#5 with great results.

With 38spl I find the loads in the midrange of book data are a good blend of accuracy and pleasantness (my new word of the day )

[john traveler]

You could always try to reinvent the wheel, but why argue with sucess? Go with the loads that have fed hundreds of thousands of competition shooters for several generations in this caliber:

2.7 or 2.8 grains Bullseye or a comparable amount of WW 231 under the 148 grain HBWC.

148 grain DEWC practice should cost even less.

[OKFC05]

For 148gr Lee TL DEWC I use 3gr HP38/231.

Most accurate load I shoot.

[socal s&w]

+1 on the traveler reply.

[retrogun]

Thanks Guys, I appreciate the info.

Retrogun

[Skip Sackett]

OK, Gonna have to try some of those loads. Only with a H&G #50 though!

retro,
Welcome to the forum. This is the best place to be on it!

What I shoot most of is a 158-165gr LSWC over 3.5gr of Bullseye. I shoot this out of all of my M586/M686 and a M14 all with good results. I have won some PPC competitions with it as well.

What will you be shooting your loads out of?

[retrogun]

Originally posted by smith crazy:
OK, Gonna have to try some of those loads. Only with a H&G #50 though!

retro,
Welcome to the forum. This is the best place to be on it!

What I shoot most of is a 158-165gr LSWC over 3.5gr of Bullseye. I shoot this out of all of my M586/M686 and a M14 all with good results. I have won some PPC competitions with it as well.

What will you be shooting your loads out of?

I have a new S&W Pro Series Model 60 w/ 3" barrel on it's way and currently shooting a S&W Model 10-5 w/ 4" barrel also. I was more of a rimfire benchrest shooter until the past year or so. Still currently shooting a 1956 BRNO #3 Stecher RF on the bags.

Thanks,
Retrogun

[rburg]

I standardized long ago on wadcutters and 3.0 gr of Bullseye. I know, its souped up just a tad from the often seen 2.7 grain load. That one just wouldn't make my then new M52-2 cycle consistently. But the 3.0 load would. Its not really souped up, it just gave a little more push than the lighter one.

I didn't have the stomach to load 2 different nearly identical rounds for .38 Specials, so I compromised. I still have ammo cans full of them, and I apparently gave my oldest son a .30 cal can of it long ago. Someplace I even have some with the hollow base upward. No, not mistakes, but they don't group well. At the longer distances, like 25 yards, if you look your clean round holes just aren't clean and round. At close ranges, like 7 yards, they are.

[zercool]

158gr LSWV over 3.5gr of TrailBoss.

I really like TB as a target powder - it's very light, so cases are near-full, and it's got a nice smooth burn with very little fouling.

[straightshooter1]

john traveler's recommendation is a good one. As is rburg's.

I started out shooting competition Bullseye with a 38 and those loads were, IMO, the most accurate.

For grins, try either at 50 yards from the best rested position you can take. You will be amazed at how well they group.

In the old days, we had to qualify at 50 yards, and I always used those loads so I would be at the top of the heap.

We didn't know, back in those days, that we should have qualified with our carry ammo. That came much later, and they dropped the 50 back to 25 yards. Now, they've dropped the 25!

Good luck,

Bob

[mtgrs737]

Years ago when I first started to reload, an old guy recomended a load to me that worked really well in my used M-14 38spl. it was:

3grs. of Red Dot powder with a 148gr. Lyman full wadcutter bullet which was seated and crimped in the bullets crimp groove. A std CCI primer was used to light it up and it shot better than I could. This is a light recoiling highly accurate load that is cheap to produce. Good luck with your new pistol.

[ocker bob]

G'day from Australia.
I've used from 2.3grs. to 3.45grs. of red dot and have found around 3grs. with 158gr. lee cast bullet has given the best results.

[retrogun]

I'm having a bit of a problem in the current ammo scarce atmosphere finding .358 HBWC 148 Gr. bullets for my reloading venture.....Closest so far is 158 Gr. Hornady Simi Wad Cutters available locally for $25 per 300. Decent looking bullets, pre-lubed and would probably be easier to load in this configration. What say ye? Bullseye Powder is scarce too but found some Red dot.

Retrogun

[Littledragon777]

I use 5.5 grains of AA#5 under a Winchester 158 grain JHP with CCI 500 primers. Excellent accuracy from my model 28-2.

[ChuckS1]

2.7 grains of Bullseye and a cast 148 grain wadcutter in my pre-14. I also like 3.5 grains of Bullseye and a 158 grain SWC.

[Rodentman]

I am using 4.8g of Power Pistol under 158g JHP's. A bit stout, but my 28-2 can take it.

[epj]

For a mild load that is exceptionally clean burning, I use 3 grains of Clays +/- .2, with a 158 gr LRNFN. Very accurate and soft recoiling in a variety of revolvers.

[retrogun]

Originally posted by epj:
For a mild load that is exceptionally clean burning, I use 3 grains of Clays +/- .2, with a 158 gr LRNFN. Very accurate and soft recoiling in a variety of revolvers.

Oddly enough I just picked up a Lb of Clays to try, I've heard good things about the clean burning of this powder....158 Gr. LRNFN?? I not sure what that one is. Can you elaborate?

Retrogun

[epj]

Lead Round Nose Flat Nose. It's from a Lee mold. They didn't have a 158 SWC without gas check, so I picked this one. It's sort of a cross between a RN and SWC.

[Rapidrob]

3.0 Grains of Bullseye under a flush seated 158 HBWC. Roll crimp. Target shot at 50 yards out of a Colt 1911 Bo-Mar/Barsto .38AMU.

[ArchAngelCD]

My two favorite .38 Special loads are a 148gr DEWC over 3.2gr W231/HP-38 and a 158gr LSWC over 4.0gr W231.

[tommy F]

Any quality 150-160 cast bullet over 3.2 Titegroup is my curent standard load.

Tommy

[Dale53]

Using a "prescription" suggested by Ed Harris, I load a DEWC in .38 Special cases ahead of 3.5 grs of Bullseye. This is a bit hotter than we used to load but it works for me:



This was shot slow fire, standing, at 25 yards a couple of days ago. I had just bench tested a couple of groups and they were well under 1" at 25 yards. I was shooting my 686 (6"). Why did I only shoot five shots? I know when to quit!

I load the DEWC with one band out of the case, load the sprue end forward (to give perfect bases), use a light taper crimp and it is a VERY consistently accurate load.

Dale53

[586L-Frame]

For 148gr HBWC I load with 2.8grs Bullseye.

Tonight, I just loaded a batch of 158gr SWC
with 3.7grs Bullseye for my Mdl 66-2, 586 L-Frames, and my Ruger GP100.

Going to the range tomorrow.

586L-Frame

[retrogun]

Dale,
That's some great shooting! I can't shoot that well off a rest! Evidently your prescription works. Thanks for the formula.

Retrogun

[retrogun]

Well guys, here's what I ended up with;
Winchester brass
Alliant Red-Dot
Alliant Clays
Speer HBWC 148Gr
CCI primers

My press, shell holder and dies should be here by the weekend. Had trouble finding Bullseye, still looking. Wife gets her new Smith tomorrow and we're off and running.

Retrogun

[Bugs100]

I like 3grs Red Dot with 148gr wad cutters. It's not the cleanest but I enjoy cleaning my guns.

[bnitch]

Tough time to get into reloading, lucky you found the primers.

[g17]

2.7gr bullseye and 148gr DEWC

[Skip Sackett]

2.7gr bullseye and 148gr DEWC

Be careful what you shoot these loads out of. They will not exit some longer barrels. If it is the HBWC it's a different story. The DEWC needs a little more to get going, like Dale's load above.

[retrogun]

Originally posted by bnitch:
Tough time to get into reloading, lucky you found the primers.

Geeze, you're right there. My son in KY found the primers for me and had a friend who was visiting, bring them back north. The Speer HBWC's I found had 1/8" of dust on the box & were sitting in one horse town gun shop. Today I was tracking down some Hornady 158gr SWC's I was told about and stumbled over a hidden 1lb container of Bullseye. Got the bullets and powder so at least I've enough to get started.
Retrogun

[R. Walter]

Whenever I get an itch in my trigger finger one of the best things I know to do is to break out a box of my target handloads in 38Special which are always 148 gr lead wadcutters loaded over 3.0 grains of Bullseye with a small pistol primer.

One can easily squeeze off several hundred rounds with no ill effects in a couple of hours to really scratch that itch.

[John R]

Originally posted by retrogun:

Oddly enough I just picked up a Lb of Clays to try, I've heard good things about the clean burning of this powder....158 Gr. LRNFN?? I not sure what that one is. Can you elaborate?

Retrogun

Clays is a very good clean powder, just be careful with it, It will spike the pressure way up, with very little change in charge weight.

[SlamFire]

A 148 grain bullet will not shot anywere near point of aim in my fixed sight M10. The sights are regulated for 158 grain bullets.

I don't have any 148 LWC data with my M10-5. Velocities in a M66 with the 158 grain load were about the same as in the M10-5, so I consider the data representative.

Maybe the +P data might be worth comparing.

4" M66-2


148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F

Ave Vel =704 fps
Std Dev =18
ES = 57
High = 742
Low = 685
N = 6




Zero Factory 158gr LSWC-HP + P
16-Aug-92 T = 75°F

Ave Vel =877 fps
Std Dev =23
ES 77
High 923
Low 846
N = 6

158gr LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
Oct-93 T = 65-70°F

Ave Vel =764 fps
Std Dev =13
ES 40
High 776
Low 736
N = 6

[retrogun]

Slamfire,
Thanks for all the data, I'm waiting for a powder scale and case trimmer to arrive in order to start reloading. I have several different formulas to try in two different revolvers with 3 different bullets and 3 different powders.....should be interesting.

Have you made any mods to your 10-5 to help accuracy? what barrel length?


Retrogun

[Emerson]

Another vote for 2.7 gr of Bullseye behind a 148 grain wadcutter.

[cmort666]

Originally posted by smith crazy:

Be careful what you shoot these loads out of. They will not exit some longer barrels. If it is the HBWC it's a different story. The DEWC needs a little more to get going, like Dale's load above.

I don't know what I could shoot that out of that it wouldn't exit the barrel, a rifle maybe.

I've been shooting that load out of my 6" Model 14 for ten years without even a hint of a problem.

[Skip Sackett]

I don't know what I could shoot that out of that it wouldn't exit the barrel, a rifle maybe.

Well, that would certainly be one firearm to be concerned with! What about a revolver that had large cylinder throats and a tight bore with an 8 3/8" barrel? How about bullets that are in the 20BHN range and are .358" and your barrel slugs at .357"?

What I was trying to say was this: "A DEWC, in most cases, needs a little more oomph to get going than a HBWC."

The logical end of that statement is this, if there isn't enough oomph, your bullet may get stuck in the barrel.

Just so you know, I know that you can get a DEWC stuck in the barrel of a M686 6" using loads listed here. Don't ask.

[cmort666]

Originally posted by smith crazy:

Well, that would certainly be one firearm to be concerned with! What about a revolver that had large cylinder throats and a tight bore with an 8 3/8" barrel? How about bullets that are in the 20BHN range and are .358" and your barrel slugs at .357"?

What I was trying to say was this: "A DEWC, in most cases, needs a little more oomph to get going than a HBWC."

The logical end of that statement is this, if there isn't enough oomph, your bullet may get stuck in the barrel.

Just so you know, I know that you can get a DEWC stuck in the barrel of a M686 6" using loads listed here. Don't ask.

If you got a bullet stuck with 2.7gr. of Bullseye and a 148gr. DEWC, that would indicate to me a problem not with the charge weight, but with either the powder itself or the primer, or alternately, with whatever mechanism you're using to throw the powder.

1. Just because the powder measure threw 2.7gr. one time, doesn't mean that it will the next. That's why every time I load, I first run three charges through the measure without even weighing them. I just dump each back into the hopper. I then start throwing for weight, until either the measure throws (within its tolerances) what it's supposed to be set at, or I make appropriate adjustments. I loaded 100 158gr. LSWCs with Unique last night. I probably ran ten test charges until I was confident that it was going to throw within 1/10gr.

2. If you get a stuck bullet with a particular charge that otherwise works fine, you don't know if it really was THAT charge that was thrown. It's not like you can go back in time and re-weigh it. Once that primer goes off, there's no way to know WHAT charge was in the case, unless it was a squib with NO powder and there's no evidence of ANY powder combustion, OR you blow out a case and there's evidence there was TOO much. But again, absent other evidence, you won't know HOW much or little there was.

In the past, I've caught errors on my part where I ended up weighing a bunch of loaded rounds to find ones with way too little powder. It's not perfect, but at least you can corral the obvious problem rounds to pull and identify a suspected error.

[Skip Sackett]

If you got a bullet stuck with 2.7gr. of Bullseye and a 148gr. DEWC

OK, you win.

[bnewc75]

I have shot a lot of HBWC 148gr with 2.7gr of bullseye out of my M14 with 8-3/8 barrel..... never had a problem (so far) I check every fifth to tenth charge for weight

[Skip Sackett]

HBWC

DEWC
Two different animals.

[Dale53]

Reloaders, in general, need to get out of the mindset, that if two bullets weigh the same, then you can load them the same. Not necessarily so. The most obvious example is the difference in pressure and velocity between a 160 gr SWC and a 160 wadcutter loaded flush with the case mouth. Most everyone recognizes that one.

However, the diffence between a Hollow base wadcutter SWAGED bullet and a solid base CAST wadcutter are also significant. It's not always recognized but it IS there and the difference is REAL as "Smith Crazy" suggests.

In much earlier days, I was loading Saeco 190 gr SWC in a .45 ACP. Then I got a very nice H&G four cavity mould that cast a 190 gr #130 SWC. Since they weighed the same, I used the same powder charge. I was fat, dumb, and happy until I cracked the slide on my .45. I chronographed that load and it was over 1100 fps!! (the Saeco ran 950-1000 fps. The lower load was safe and the faster load was NOT. It turned out my recoil spring had "sagged" from 16.0 lbs to 12.0 lbs. That combination of a "too hot" load and a "too light" spring was more than my 1911 could take. The #130 bullet took up more powder space than the #68 bullet did. It is as simple as that.

The chronograph is NOT a pressure gun but it can sure indicate areas to stay away from. It certainly educated me. I use a lot of the H&G #130's these days but I am careful to adjust my powder charge to give me what I should have instead of MORE (that I shouldn't have .

Solid base wadcutters need a bit more powder because they are cast and are harder and the solid base does not expand quite like a soft, swaged hollow base wadcutter does.

On the other hand, the solid base can be driven faster, with safety, than a hollow base wadcutter (driven too fast, hollow base bullets have separated their skirts and left the skirt in the barrel to cause a bulged barrel on the next shot).

They are both FINE designs but MUST be used within their design limits for safety AND satisfaction.

Dale53

[bnewc75]

A friend was cleaning off his reloading bench and gave me a few hundred 148gr DEWC which I have never loaded........ thanks for the information about stepping up the charge.

[John R]

Originally posted by retrogun:
I'm having a bit of a problem in the current ammo scarce atmosphere finding .358 HBWC 148 Gr. bullets for my reloading venture.....Closest so far is 158 Gr. Hornady Simi Wad Cutters available locally for $25 per 300. Decent looking bullets, pre-lubed and would probably be easier to load in this configration. What say ye? Bullseye Powder is scarce too but found some Red dot.

Retrogun

Get them, and have fun.

[Bullseye Smith]

I use 3grs. of TiteGroup with a 148 gr HBWC and it is great. Plus I use Federal Primers with this. When we shot PPC we used 2.2 grs. of Bullseye and you could see the HBWC fly to the target when the sun was right, and that is a lite load.

[harry carey]

if you are to load wadcutters you should read "a study of 38 target loads " W G Mitchell 1988 issue 117 "rifle" magazine.

[Gutpile Charlie]

I have not loaded any in years, but the loads I used were 148 gr. HBWC or double ended wad cutters over the "appropriate" amount of WW231 or Bullseye.

That all you need to know....it will work like a charm.

[photoman]

The classic Elmer Keith 3.0 of Bullseye with a 148 works for me.