I recently acquired a very nice antique S&W 38-44 Target revolver. I did a lot of research into making usable ammo for it and figured a specially loaded .38 Special cartridge with the bullet seated deep enough to clear the front of the cylinder ought to do just fine. So, I bought myself a little Lee Precision reloading kit, brass, primers, powder and bullets and started making some "samples". The .38 Special case is .004 narrower than the original .38-44 (not the one from the 1920's, but the one from 1887). The original .38-44 cartridge was as long as the cylinder (1 7/16 in) and the bullet was housed entirely within the shell, flush with the rim of the cartridge. The .38 Special is shorter, of course, and with a normally seated bullet is just a bit longer than the 1 7/16 cylinder, at 1.45 inches compared to the 1.437 of the cylinder. I made a handful of rounds seating the bullet to 1.43, and reducing the powder charge by about 10%. I tested the round in my 686-4 firing one factory load .38 Special and then one of my reduced loads. It worked just fine, and the softer recoil was noticeable. So, I tried the next cartridge in my 130-some year old target revolver and shot a bullseye at 20 yards. It was a beautiful, soft recoil, felt amazing to hold the old girl. Nice balance - better than the 686 I would say. Next shot however the bullet got stuck in the barrel so I thought perhaps my reduced loads were a bit too light. I drove the bullet out with a brass rod, made a few new rounds using the full .5cc scoop as per the instructions. Again, I tested it first in my 686, one factory load, one custom load. The difference between the two was less, but my .5cc charge still felt softer than the factory load. Time to test it in the old girl. Same thing: one fine shot right in the center, next shot the bullet got stuck again. I removed the bullet again, made a new powder measure about 10% above the .5cc Lee scoop and loaded a few more. Tested them with my 686 against factory loads and the difference was barely perceptible. I tried it in the 38-44 and the first two shots went fine. On the third shot the gun went just "poof" and I could tell that the bullet was stuck again. This time it went barely one inch into the barrel, and most of the powder had not even ignited! So, what am I doing wrong?? Is the diameter difference of the .38-44 against the .38 Special too much and the gas escapes backward instead of propelling the bullet? Is seating the bullet deeper than normal causing it to lose power? I do not crimp the case because of the extra depth, and also to prevent the case from splitting. I am using "American Select" powder and 105 grain SWC lead. Any thoughts??

You are actually weighing the charge and not just scooping and dumping, right?

The better method is to use .357 Maximum brass, shortened to size. I suspect with so much free bore and undersized brass is the culprit.
(I have a .32-44 (which boxer 7.62x38 Nagant works great for), a .38-44 like yours and a .44.

FYI: Lee powder scoops are accurate enough for what you're doing here.
Just make sure you don't double load one.

__________________
Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

scooping has some good points. a set scoops is close to weighing. what about the brass, is it proper or are re forming the brass?

For what he's described I have some concerns. The biggest one is he mentions .5cc and estimating 10%, but never gives a weight.

From the description of what is happening, projectiles stuck in the barrel and incomplete burn, it sounds like he is severely under charging the loads.

Yes, almost every auto charging setup works by volume, and works pretty well, but it is also a mechanical setup that reproduces the action the same every time. The powder he's using is also one that meters by volume fairly well, but I've seen .2grn under on a 4.5grn target from a Lee auto disk setup using 700x, which is similar.

Fortunately he's working on the low end, so as long as he clears the barrel he should be fine, but no mention of exactly how much powder is in each bullet, and the statement "reducing the powder charge by about 10%", raises some concerns.

Crimps are important as they allow pressure to build inside of the case as the powder burns until the resistance of the crimp is finally overcome and the bullet leaves the case and enters the bbl. Without a consistent crimp the bullet has nothing but the friction between it and the wall of that particular case to hold it in place so the smallest initial amount of pressure will move it. Get a measure, dump the dippers and try crimping your loads, hard to do on a Lee wack a mole. [I started with one in .45-70.]

OP, please post the type and weight of bullet and the brand/type of powder, brass and primer you’re using. Apologies if I just missed this info. Photos might help as well.

Naw. I'm very low tech. Just using the scoop that came with the kit. My new scoop is a bit bigger, measuring about 10% more by volume compared to the Lee scoop. I guess i ought to invest in a scale.

No, I never double load. I'm anal about this sort of stuff. My 38-44 cost me a pretty penny and I'm not taking any chances. I suspect the undersized brass is the culprit, too. The reloads behaved differently in the 686 so it must be the cylinder diameter because the bore is the same.

I'll take some pictures...

It is very nice to know how much powder you are putting into a case.....

It is worth your time to stop loading and go get a scale.

Only then will you have an idea if your load is safe and within the loading manuals safety limits,
that you are getting you information from.

So here are some pictures. The powder is "American Select", the brass is Starline .38 special, the primers are CCI 500. The bullets are 105 grain lead. The original 38-44 came in either a 70 grain "gallery" load or a 146 grain medium-range target load. I have a box of original UMC 38-44 black powder ammo for reference. One of the pictures shows the 38-44 (center) in relation to a regular .38 special (right), and my custom loaded cartridge with a deeper set bullet (left). From everything i have heard here I guess I need different brass, and a scale... Thanks for your help!

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Interesting you bring this up. I’ve been a real pander for 35 years or so and just recently has a similar thing happen loading 38 specials. Due to arthritis in my hands and wrists I started reducing loads trying to get the softest load with reasonable accuracy that I could come up with.

A few months ago I tried some Accurate N100NF powder (super fast burning) and found with 158 cast swc’s it was very soft shooting at near minimum loads. It was consistent and accurate.I thought then I’d try a 125 plated Berry’s flat point. Again great consistent results with even milder recoil. I chronographed everything but don’t have figures at hand.

Well rather than leaving well enough alone I decided to go back to one of my old standards of 232/HP38 and repeat the same tests. This time my 158’s shot great but my 125’s were extremely inconsistent with variations in velocity of as much as 400fps.

I hand weigh each of my loads when working new ones up so every load is as consistent as possible. I was using a known batch of 231 I’d used out of for several years and out of the same batch of Winchester primers I’ve used out of for years.

I shot from a 1948 pre model 10 2” and a new Colt Cobra 2”. Consistency was all over the place and two bullets got stuck in the barrels, one in each. It appeared from the volume of powder in the barrel that the powder didn’t ignite or didn’t completely ignite.

I’ve loaded thousands of 38’s over the years and never experienced this.

Ok, I decided the issue might be that I’m at recommended minimum load so I bumped the load up to half way between Hidgdons min and max loads. This time all bikers cleared the barrel but again they were inconsistent but not to the extreme of the first test. Consistency was better but not great.

What I’ve concluded, I found 231 to be somewhat position sensitive. If I tilted my revolver up and whoop the charge down to the primer it fired with full power and complete ignition. If I tilted the pistol forward and shook the folder to the bullet end it was very anemic.

Second I’m just using enough crimp to hold the bullet in being careful not to over crimp the plated bullet and cause jacket separation when fired. I’m thinking I need a touch more crimp. I’m planning more testing this week to see if that helps.

I’ve also used HS6 and CFE Pistol with excellent results. They’re slower powders but there’s more powder in the case resulting in better ignition.

Yesterday I purchased a pound of Accurate #2 and did a series of loads near minimum with both the 158 swc’s and 125 Berry’s. I have some Unique and Bullseye but have a limited quantity and availability is slim whereas I have plenty of the other powders especially 231.

If replicating a factory (pre 1900) 38-44 Target load (@ 20gr of what Black powder?) with a 148gr wadcutter is the goal (?), but using a 105gr bullet and a smokeless powder is the route, accurately determing that...

"RIGHT LOAD" is going to be an interesting experiment!

If the desire is to develop a light, target-style load with accuracy (and NO SQUIBS!) a SAFE starting point has to be established: accurate powder measurement is essential.

My personal belief is that using a modern Black Powder substitute and a 148gr lead wadcutter in 38 Special brass might be the safer way to go. There should be sufficient case volume to find a safe start load. Then , work up.

Any squib is potentially more dangerous than an extra half grain of powder once all the bullets actually clear the barrel.

Good Luck!

FWIW (and for those of us who are old that means (F)or (W)hat (Its) (W)orth,) You do need to know what you're putting into the casing. When loading, 1 grn translates into something like 0.002oz.

As a side story, my father who is in his late 80's now loaded a lot of light loads that he gave me. He did it because time caught up with him and he wanted to keep shooting. I now have a lot of stuff where I shoot it, it feels strange and stop shooting it until I pull a bullet out and weigh the powder to try to figure out what's in it. For the most part, it's 700-x or Bullseye, but there are some things that I'm not sure what I'm looking at.

For what you're doing, get an accurate measure of what you're putting in to the things. The comments that have been put on this thread are valid, but stick with what's simple first. Think as long as you stay on the lower end of the charge weights you'll be safe, but it'll be more fun shooting a wonderful old gun once you figure out what you need to have to get it to work. It's about enjoying the thing and having fun.

This might be helpful....

Model 3 Target 38-44 Black Powder (brass?)

One way to solve all your problems would to be to buy some 125 gr lead round nose "Cowboy" bullets
and pick up a bottle of Trail Boss powder.

You can seat the "Cowboy" as deep as the old original bullets.......... (flush)
and then adjust the powder to be just under the bullet, when seated
for a maximum load, after you have worked up to it.

70% of a max load is a stated starting powder weight in most manuals.

Most starting loads don't work out for me and I use a 60% case volume fill
with 40% of "Air" between the bullet and powder for my target loads.

Good luck on what ever you decide on.

Thank you all for the insights! I have a box of spent 357 cases which are closer to the original length, so I'll try a batch with these. 357 maximum is impossible to find. I have ordered a powder scale and will take it from here...

If you are using 231/HP38, it is very sensitive to light loads with light bullets. Add no crimp to the equation, and you get a mess.

I would go with .38 Spl brass, a 148 gr. wadcutter, and 2.8 gr. of Bullseye or 3.2 gr. of 231, with a good crimp. That has been the .38 target load of choice for about 70 years. At least a good starting point.

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protocalldesign.com

I use the Lee scoops all the time but I use them to throw a charge that is light by a few 10th's, then I trickle up to the desired weight. The scoops are consistent enough to replicate factory "plinking" ammo but not (in my opinion) repeatable enough for min/max charges.
There are some great suggestions above. One thing I will add to the question of low volume charges is that you can take up some of this space to prevent erratic ignition. One common method is to stuff a pinch of Dacron pillow wadding over the powder charge to hold it against the flash hole when firing.

I thought of doing that. I've heard that if the powder is too far forward of the flash hole it may not ignite properly (which I think happened to one of mine). One other thing I noticed with the length of the cartridge case is that the original 38-44 case was based on the early 1 7/16 cylinder but when S&W changed the length to 1 9/16 the ammo stayed the same. So, in the later revolvers the rim of the cartridge is about 1/8 inch back from the front of the cylinder. My .357 magnum cartridges are also about 1/8 shy of the front of the 1 7/16 cylinder. The gap should therefore not be a problem. Should work fine, then. I got my powder scale and my custom made measure is actually bang-on. Exactly 3.8gr of powder as suggested by Alliant's loading tables. Here is a picture of an original 38-44 cartridge in the 1 9/16 cylinder of my other, pristine 38-44 which I will NEVER shoot...

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Just to give you my opinion , alot above is good advice.

First, A difference of 0.004" is insignificant when it comes to width. Do you realize how very small four-one thousandth of an inch is?

I also believe you need a scale. You don't have to spend a lot of money but a good balance beam scale will help you a lot. Look on the used market for an RCBS 5-0-2 or a 5-0-5 balance beam scale. You might find one for ~$50.

I also agree you should use a 148gr HBWC bullet. They are usually very accurate. Look for something with a BHN of 12 or less to prevent leading at low velocities.

I think you should use a faster powder than American Select for what you are doing. Bullseye, W231/HP-38, W244 or Zip will serve you better.

Of course this is all in my opinion, take what you think will help or use none of it. It's your ammo, your gun and your choice.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Thanks! It all helps. The quest continues...

I might have missed this, but 357 is not what you should use in a 38-44 Target round. The gun was designed for a .361 S&W bullet. The chamber was meant to be full of a brass case right up to the face of the cylinder, nothing shorter. .357 Maximum is the right case to start out with, but needs to be enlarged before loading or they will be damaged by the larger bullet. I had a expander made for that job. It is a simple thing that any machinist can do and is shown below. The attachment allows for a .361" bullet to be fully seated inside the case as was originally done using a 145g Round nose 38 S&W bullet. Image of original round is below. I used to work with Unique, but recently switched to Trail Boss. This powder fills much more of the case and keeps SD low. I am up to around 600 fps in an unusual 10" Single Shot Barrel, but is giving me some decent accuracy. I will be loading some higher volume TB loads to shoot over a chronograph, but want to stop at 700 fps to be kind to my old single shot pistol. Of course if loading BP, you still have to load to 1/16" above where the base of the fully seated bullet would set.

Problem with .357" is that the bullet is often too small to fully engage the rifling of a .361" barrel. At velocities above 700 fps, the bullet can strip through the rifling without sufficient spin to stabilize the bullet. Also, if the rifling is shallow, a .357" bullet will almost pass through the lands only touching the grooves. Rifling in revolvers seem to run from .002" to .005" and as the barrel wears, the bore gets even bigger and the rifling more shallow.

Loading a fully seated lead bullet in the case requires some extra care no matter what powder you use. One has to measure the overall length of the seated bullet and make sure you are not compressing the powder when seating. If one looks closely at the overall design of the cartridge, you will find the the fully seated bullets resemble the standard OAL of a 38 S&W cartridge, giving a starting point in the reloading tables for 38 S&W some credibility in designing your own loads.

Every job that is worth doing is worth doing right! First image below shows original 38-44 Target rounds on left, reformed 357 Max brass and a 145g .361" LRN. Second shows the simple expanded that is ran into the case beyond the depth of the seated bullet. Lastly, my 38-44 Single Shot.

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__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

The depth of rifling is doubled and makes all the difference in the world. Rifling measured by many will vary between .002 to .005" deep, and a .357" bullet in a 38 Special barrel will fill the bore to the bottom of the grooves, imparting full spin that stabilizes the projectile. The diameter of the lands in a 38 Special should only be less than .352".

The diameter of the lands in a 38 S&W is as big as .357", or .004" less than the .361 groove diameter. So a slightly oversized 357 bullet in a slightly smaller .361" might contact enough of the grooves to get required spin, but don't count on it.

Most people who shoot .357 in a 38 S&W barrel have not tried the right bullet, so cannot make a comparison. Having started out doing the same thing years ago has evolved into an exercise to improve accuracy. The key is to try both bullets and experiment first. Try the right bullet in the right caliber and I will almost guarantee improved accuracy, which for me is the name of the game.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

.361 dia bullets are made by;

Matt's, Missouri & Buffalo arms.........
if they have them in stock, if youdeceide to try any.

Somehow I thought he was talking about the case, not the bullet diameter. You of course are correct. (don't get old lol)

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

yes, I was talking about the case diameter. Good point about the bullet diameter, though. I will have to do some experimenting. Thank you!

SUCCESS! My .357 cartridge with 3.8 gr American Select and a 105 grain bullet works just fine in the 38-44! I did a test with my 686 first, comparing the recoil to a factory load .38 special and then put it into my vintage 1890's 38-44. It was BEAUTIFUL! Soft recoil, consistent results, accurate. Couldn't be better. Nice to see the old girl working again!! The picture is of an original 38-44 cartridge and my .357 magnum cartridge with a deeply seated, un-crimped bullet. Yes, making a true-to-original cartridge from .357 maximum and .361 lead would be ideal, but if you're working with what you have, this ain't bad!

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Congratulations, I'm glad you found the fix.

One thing though, I truly feel you should use a slight crimp to at least remove the flare on the case. It will also make your ammo more consistent. In a revolver the recoil can cause bullet pull and extend the bullet which can lock up the cylinder. I think a slight crimp will improve your ammo which you said is already very good. Just my opinion.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Good point. I get what you are saying. I will try a few rounds with a light crimp. Thanks!

Crimp will not help the 38-44 Target since the conical bullet is set way down into the case and can move forward beyond the front of the cylinder while not yet touching the crimp. These are strange cartridges and were meant to simply be a brass tube right up to the rear of the barrel to minimize free-space. I am not surprised that your gun shoots satisfactorily, but with a 1/4" free space between the case and the rear of the barrel, you will get blow-buy and the bullet will likely shift and not enter the barrel perfectly. Blow-by around the bullet and blow-back with a loose case in the chamber will reduce performance and will get your revolver very dirty fast. Free space allows the bullet to cant before it enters the barrel, further reducing accuracy. Lastly, a .357 bullet likely will not get full spin through the bigger bore.

From what you see so far, it sounds like your gun could shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with the proper ammo. Once brass starts showing up again, please do try the process of trimming 357 Max to full cylinder length, expanding the case to take .361" bullets and you might well be amazed at how accurate these old revolver can be!

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I just got back from the range yesterday shooting several different loadings of 38-44 Target and now have a good idea of the performance for what I was loading. I prefer Trail Boss for most of my vintage calibers, so loaded 3 and 3.5 grains, with a 145 grain LRN from Missouri Bullets set fully into the shortened 357 Rem Max cases. I have lots of Small Rifle primers and wanted to test the difference between SR and SP primers. Results are below and I think I am at the sweet spot with 650 to 750 fps on all loads.

3 grains Trail Boss - Small Pistol primers - 624 fps
3 grains Trail Boss - Small Rifle primers - 664 fps
3.5 grains Trail Boss - Small Pistol primers - 719 fps
3.5 grains Trail Boss - Small Rifle primers - 765 fps

Interesting that using small rifle primers raised the velocities by a consistent 6% in both loads. Good ignition and low standard deviation in all loads.

Can not guarantee satisfactory results in any other gun, so start low and work up to a load you are comfortable shooting.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515