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Old 11-29-2021, 04:24 PM
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Default Primer power?

The primers in question is the large rifle. Thereís three different large rifle primers.

Standard large rifle

CCI #34 1.5 times hotter than standard equal to 1.5 grains of powder. Used in floating firing pin military rifles to avoid slamfires.

Magnum large rifle primer. 3 times hotter than standard equal to 3 grains of powder.

Am I correct? I loaded some 30-06 with magnum primers it feels hot.
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Old 11-29-2021, 05:01 PM
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I've always understood that military primers are the same as magnum except less sensitivity because of the unconstrained firing pins of military guns.

Magnum primers are called for when the case volume and powder quantity need the additional heat and pressure and when shooting in sub-freezing conditions.

Since the military may be in artic conditions, they don't want to worry about having the "right" ammunition, so they make it all capable by using magnum level primers.
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:36 PM
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I would like to know your source for thinking #34 primers are 1 1/2 times hotter and magnum primers are 3 times hotter than standard primers. Without any real evidence these figures seem way off to me. A primer that is equal to 3 grs of powder?
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:45 AM
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I use magnum large rifle for many standard chamberings, including 30-06.

3 grains of powder? Which powder?

With some combo's I may pick up a bit higher velocity with magnum primers, but usually it's 50 fps or so.

I kept magnum primers on hand due to ball powders and autoloader apps. Eventually I started using them in most large rifle loads.

I've also found many times they're available when standard large rifle aren't.

When changing components I back off and work back up. My experience has been brass case thickness/capacity has proven to provide more change than whether I use CCI 200 or 250 primers.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:39 AM
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You are incorrect .

Things like primers , made by so many different manufacturers , are not so cut and dried when it comes to burn and pressue . They vary ... and they vary a lot .

And what "powder" are you referencing ... so many powders all with different burn rates .

The whole subject is way more complicated than your simple explanation and the reason is there are just too many variables in primers .
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Old 11-30-2021, 11:44 AM
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I never heard of the rubric that you quoted. It makes sense that magnum primers would be hotter, and thus a slight reduction in powder is probably needed if approaching max loads.
Regardless of the brand, of primer, or if its magnum or standard, its wise to work up to a max load, and watch for pressure signs.
Even an exact match, to the data in the loading manual, cases, powder, primers all the same; different guns handle pressures differently.
Chamber size, lead depth,head space, even the rifling can cause variations in pressures.
No magic solution, for predicting how primers, or any other component will react until the trigger is pulled, except for start light and go up carefully.

No expert here, just a very cautious re-loader with about 40 years of loading experience.
So far no ka-booms, other than a universal made carbine that fired out of battery. Not my gun, not my ammo, just a gun with a known issue with the brand of gun.
I was shooting it at the time, gun survived, but needed repairs, no injuries to me.
I learned a lesson, about how even a little bitty case like a 30 carbine is a bomb if not properly contained.

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Old 11-30-2021, 01:38 PM
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In over 50 years of reloading, I have never heard or read any of what You are saying. I use magnum rifle primers like I use magnum pistol primers. Seldom use standard primers,except for match loads.
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Old 11-30-2021, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrovoEchoSierra View Post
So far no ka-booms, other than a universal made carbine that fired out of battery. Not my gun, not my ammo, just a gun with a known issue with the brand of gun.
I was shooting it at the time, gun survived, but needed repairs, no injuries to me.
I learned a lesson, about how even a little bitty case like a 30 carbine is a bomb if not properly contained.
Worth noting that the Universal carbines varied, with some production having the safety notch in the bolt to prevent the hammer hitting the pin if the bolt wasn't in battery and other models lacking this important safety feature.
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Old 11-30-2021, 02:42 PM
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I shot many 10's of thousands of rounds during the 80's, 90's, and 00's thru M1G and M1A in OTC National Match High Power Rifle comp. All matches were in the Sonora Desert in all seasons. I used only F210 Match or Rem 9 1/2 primers with IMR or H 4895, IMR 4064, or BW36 powders. I never had a slam fire or double fire from one trigger pull. I had never heard of the "special" designated primer mentioned. I never encountered any such Know it All's to gain such special knowledge.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:22 PM
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The CCI #34 is basically a standard LR primer in its ignition characteristics, but is less impact sensitive for use in military rifles to reduce the likelihood of a slamfire. I have fired lots of regular LR-primed .30-'06 through an M1 without ever having a slamfire. Maybe I was just lucky. But I have nothng against #34 primers. I have several thousand of them.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
The CCI #34 is basically a standard LR primer in its ignition characteristics, but is less impact sensitive for use in military rifles to reduce the likelihood of a slamfire. I have fired lots of regular LR-primed .30-'06 through an M1 without ever having a slamfire. Maybe I was just lucky. But I have nothng against #34 primers. I have several thousand of them.
Actually the CCI #34 are magnum class primers which are less impact sensitive. So are the CCI #41 primers. Don't take my word for it, ask CCI like I did.
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Old 12-01-2021, 01:19 AM
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"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king..."

In an era of no primers, smalls usually work in small cases and large primers just may go BANG! as well...?

But having NO primers almost always means NO BANG at all!

Cheers!

P.S. Be careful out there!
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king..."

In an era of no primers, smalls usually work in small cases and large primers just may go BANG! as well...?

But having NO primers almost always means NO BANG at all!

Cheers!

P.S. Be careful out there!
Amen Brother ... I'll second that !

My new motto - Load like you got some sense !
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
Actually the CCI #34 are magnum class primers which are less impact sensitive. So are the CCI #41 primers. Don't take my word for it, ask CCI like I did.
The CCI #34 is apparently considered a Milspec primer, but there are numerous LR milspec primers used in U. S. military ammunition, and which one the #34 matches is not specified. Most information says that the primer cup and mixture used is the same as the CCI Large Magnum primer, but the anvil is slightly different in order to make the #34 less impact sensitive.

Regardless, I ran across one article in which about every LR primer on the market was tested in .308, all loads using IMR 4895 and 150 grain bullets and all cartridges were otherwise identical except for the primer. The average MVs of all loads recorded were very close together, and if anything, the load using a #34 primer produced a slightly lower average MV than did standard CCI 200 LR primers with the same load. So whatever primer mixture is used in the #34 primer, it doesn't appear to be any "hotter" than any other LR primer on the market.

About three years ago did a very similar test myself, but with the .270 Winchester, loads differing only in the primer used, CCI 200 vs CCI 250. I think I used IMR 4350 with 130 grain bullets. I was very careful to match weigh all cases and bullets to make all cartridges as nearly identical as I could. The .270 loads made up using the standard CCI 200 primer had a slightly higher average MV, and they also grouped tighter at 100 yards than the loads using the Magnum CCI 250 primer. If there is any ballistic performance difference between the CCI 200 and the CCI 250 primers, it doesn't show up in average MV.
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Old 12-02-2021, 11:13 AM
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I am in the unfortunate position of not having any small pistol primers available, so set out to duplicate my standard velocities by using small rifle primers. I loaded with both pistol and rifle primers and consistently found that I gained around 50 fps with small rifle primers. I can now confidently load my 38s using small rifle primers until the market resupplies SPPs. This equated to about a 7% increase in velocities for the loads I tested. Another data point I noticed is that the small rifle primer recorded a lower standard deviation than small pistol primers, which is certainly a good thing.

Owning a chronograph is essential for this type of load development and I would not hesitate to try primer substitution by loading both primers and check velocities at the range. Start out loading about 10% less powder and check the magnum primer velocities, comparing them to your standard primer load velocities. Load rounds in groups of 5, slowly stepping up to standard amounts of powder with magnum primers and stop testing when you reach the proper velocities to match those using standard rifle primers. Pull the bullets on the rest. Same testing can be done with military primers and you can develop loads that match velocities and are perfectly safe substituting the different primers.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:13 PM
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I agree that having a chronograph is essential to effective load development. Regarding your velocity differential between SP and SR primers I have found through my chronographing that SR primers are basically the same as SPM primers. Velocity increase will vary with the powder charge and consistency will always improve.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:23 PM
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The CCI #34 primer is a Magnum strength primer for consistent ignition of ball type powders.

The other difference is in the space between the tip of the anvil and the cup of the primer. The larger space makes the primer less sensitive.

The CCI #34 will reduce the chance of slamfire. Slamfires will damage the firearm and possibly the shooter. I have used the CCI mil spec primers whenever available in my loads for semi-autos.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:42 PM
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"The CCI #34 primer is a Magnum strength primer..."

I would REALLY like for you to explain what the precise definition of "Magnum Strength Primer" is.
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
I am in the unfortunate position of not having any small pistol primers available, so set out to duplicate my standard velocities by using small rifle primers. I loaded with both pistol and rifle primers and consistently found that I gained around 50 fps with small rifle primers. I can now confidently load my 38s using small rifle primers until the market resupplies SPPs. This equated to about a 7% increase in velocities for the loads I tested. Another data point I noticed is that the small rifle primer recorded a lower standard deviation than small pistol primers, which is certainly a good thing.
The principal difference between the SPP and the SRP is that the cup thickness is slightly greater in the SR (and SPM) in order to withstand higher chamber pressures better. Dimensionally they are identical. Many years ago, I thoroughly tested SP and SR primers in .38 Special target loads, and found no significant differences in MV and grouping performance. From that time, I have treated them as equivalent for most handgun loads. The only caution is that some handguns may not have enough firing pin impact energy, due to a weak spring or whatever, to reliably detonate an SR primer.

My concern is that many seem to conflate the meaning of "Magnum" to suggest that the word on a primer box indicates that it is somehow supercharged in its ballistic properties when that does not appear to be the case at all, the real purpose being to indicate that it will withstand the higher chamber pressures usually associated with Magnum cartridges without failure.

Last edited by DWalt; 12-02-2021 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:35 PM
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Hmmm. Since the primer shortage started there have been an additional 10,498 "Primers?" threads on reloading forums. The replies have been "factual", "theoritical" and plain old off base misinformed opinions. I think I see all these in this thread (I normally pass on any "Primers?" thread). I know what I can use in whatever application, most info from trusted texts, and choose not to "discuss" my knowlwdge as there are too many "primer experts" on reloading forums to "correct" me...

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Old 12-02-2021, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
I am in the unfortunate position of not having any small pistol primers available, so set out to duplicate my standard velocities by using small rifle primers. I loaded with both pistol and rifle primers and consistently found that I gained around 50 fps with small rifle primers. I can now confidently load my 38s using small rifle primers until the market resupplies SPPs. This equated to about a 7% increase in velocities for the loads I tested. Another data point I noticed is that the small rifle primer recorded a lower standard deviation than small pistol primers, which is certainly a good thing.

Owning a chronograph is essential for this type of load development and I would not hesitate to try primer substitution by loading both primers and check velocities at the range. Start out loading about 10% less powder and check the magnum primer velocities, comparing them to your standard primer load velocities. Load rounds in groups of 5, slowly stepping up to standard amounts of powder with magnum primers and stop testing when you reach the proper velocities to match those using standard rifle primers. Pull the bullets on the rest. Same testing can be done with military primers and you can develop loads that match velocities and are perfectly safe substituting the different primers.
Curious to know, what powder did you use for this test?

Among the theories I have heard, if you're using a fast burning propellant like 700-x, you won't see a big change moving from a standard to magnum primer since even though it is a magnum (or in your case rifle,) the powder burns so fast it doesn't matter. Now if you go to something slower like CFE Pistol, initiating more of the charge when it starts will cause the rest of it to burn up faster than it normally would, and you would see an increase in pressure.

I have to say I have no idea if this is true or not. I guess I'm over educated enough to make myself dangerous and can see how it makes sense, but am also old enough to know I don't know everything and have no problem admitting it.

So, I guess I'm asking to either get another data point to say it's a viable theory in the case of you using something on the slow side, or have more information to bust it.
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Old 12-02-2021, 10:24 PM
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It seems that many are over thinking the use of primers with the typical fearful “what if” approach. From my own considerable primer comparisons I can offer a couple of examples of primer effect. 5.7 grs of Bullseye, 158 gr cast SWC, Win SP primer, around 1040 FPS in a 4” model 28 with extreme spread of about 60 FPS. Same with Win SPM primer bumped velocity about 10 FPS and lowered ES to less than 30 FPS. Change the load to 14.2 grs of 2400 and the difference in velocity is over 100 FPS and again ES is cut to less than half. The real question seems to be if you can stock up on whatever primers you want why would you buy anything but magnum primers? Win SR and SPM primers are virtually the same.
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Old 12-03-2021, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
It seems that many are over thinking the use of primers with the typical fearful ďwhat ifĒ approach. From my own considerable primer comparisons I can offer a couple of examples of primer effect. 5.7 grs of Bullseye, 158 gr cast SWC, Win SP primer, around 1040 FPS in a 4Ē model 28 with extreme spread of about 60 FPS. Same with Win SPM primer bumped velocity about 10 FPS and lowered ES to less than 30 FPS. Change the load to 14.2 grs of 2400 and the difference in velocity is over 100 FPS and again ES is cut to less than half. The real question seems to be if you can stock up on whatever primers you want why would you buy anything but magnum primers? Win SR and SPM primers are virtually the same.
From my post #21 on this thread, with Bullseye being one of the faster burning, and 2400 slower, it fits the theory I was told.

As I said, I'm just looking for good data on this, with test cases where the only thing that changed is the primer.

FWIW, I've been fortunate enough to have not run out of primers during the current shortage and have not had to experiment, although I was down to 200 CCI #300's at one point. When it comes down to it, if I did run out of large pistol primers, I'd just be shooting the guns that use what I still have until I could restock.
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Old 12-03-2021, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
"The CCI #34 primer is a Magnum strength primer..."

I would REALLY like for you to explain what the precise definition of "Magnum Strength Primer" is.
Quote:
....My concern is that many seem to conflate the meaning of "Magnum" to suggest that the word on a primer box indicates that it is somehow supercharged in its ballistic properties when that does not appear to be the case at all, the real purpose being to indicate that it will withstand the higher chamber pressures usually associated with Magnum cartridges without failure.
From what I have read a magnum primer will burn slightly hotter and slightly longer than a standard primer. Nowhere did I ever say a word on a box would "supercharge" anything.

Below is a link with a good article about primers from Shooting Times.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor..._200909/100079
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Old 12-03-2021, 10:58 AM
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Curious to know, what powder did you use for this test? . . .
The only thing I changed was the primer. Loads were all done with the same amount of Trail Boss, the same bullet, and the same gun. I always use a 6" gun when testing, assuming that any shorter barrel will see lower velocity. Trail Boss is #22 of #146 on my chart, so on the upper end of the spectrum.

Lots of speculation on this issue out there and as many opinions as there are people. That is the very reason why I always work up test loads when trying anything new. You will not find any information out there from primer manufacturers on substituting primers due to the liability exposure is some screws up reloading.
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Old 12-03-2021, 11:27 AM
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A magnum primer will have a longer and wider flame than a standard primer. The difference is usually only seen in powders that are very slow burning for the cartridge, also they can give better ignition with ball powders.

The difference in ignition can be large. Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum are the only primer that give the best accuracy in my 300 Weatherby. The 454 Casull needs a Small Pistol Magnum(Small Rifle) primer.
I have had pressure decreases and lower rates of fire in a 9mm sub gun when using Small Rifle Primers. The primer was pushing the bullet free of the case and the powder was burning when the bullet was in the chamber throat. I happened in milliseconds but was very close to and obstructed bore.

There is no secret about primers, the manufacturers have all the data out and available on primers.
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Old 12-03-2021, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
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The only thing I changed was the primer. Loads were all done with the same amount of Trail Boss, the same bullet, and the same gun. I always use a 6" gun when testing, assuming that any shorter barrel will see lower velocity. Trail Boss is #22 of #146 on my chart, so on the upper end of the spectrum.

Lots of speculation on this issue out there and as many opinions as there are people. That is the very reason why I always work up test loads when trying anything new. You will not find any information out there from primer manufacturers on substituting primers due to the liability exposure is some screws up reloading.
This does actually support the theory on the relationship between powder burn rates and primers, but is a long way from proving it.

From this and the other post we have 3 propellants, Bullseye, Trail Boss, and 2400, which according to my burn rate chart are ranked as 13, 23, and 54, that gave 10, 50, and 100 FPS deltas when switching to a "hotter" primer.

While there are far too many other variables to prove the theory that switching to a magnum primer is safe(er) when using a faster powder, it does support it.

What this also supports are the differing opinions on if it is safe or not to substitute a magnum for a standard primer. Given all the contradicting views, it seems like the individual experiences and conclusions could all be plausible based on the specifics of what was tested.

Last edited by Tu_S; 12-03-2021 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 12-03-2021, 02:15 PM
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"On this, the 3rd planet from the Sun, most carbon-based life forms operate on a bell-shaped curve..."

This, also, apparently applies to reloaders as well...? Some live "by the (a?) Book". Personally I have seen enough errors in print to be aware that further investigation or research may be necessary.

Cheers!

P.S. IMHO, when one is loading "on the upper edge"(?) almost all the variables (i.e., powder, primer, crimp, OAL, bullet design & hardness, etc.), even in small increments can potentially have a less than desirable effect: and that is why I don't go there...!

Elmer Keith I am not.

Mid-book loads are that ol' "horse of a different color": you can safely work up a load with different primers as well.
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Old 12-03-2021, 04:43 PM
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What people fail to understand about loading handgun vs centerfire rifles is that maximum loads for rifles may be close to maximum working pressures while handgun loads are not. A maximum load for the .308 Winchester may be at 62,000 psi, a maximum load for the .357 will be a bit less than the top industry standard of 35,000 psi, the same as std pressure 9mm. NO substitution of primers with any handgun load is going to result in a dangerous load period folks. As to slow powders it is just about impossible to get enough 2400 in a case and still seat a 158 gr bullet and actually reach 35,000 psi with any primer. People will shoot factory 9mm ammo in their J frames all day long but are terrified about loading a .357 magnum K,L or N frame revolver to anywhere near 9mm pressure levels??? All of this phobia about primers is ridiculous.
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Old 12-03-2021, 09:39 PM
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My 30-06 using a magnum primer with IMR 4350 powder I think itís a tad hot maybe old age is creeping up on me. Iíll check the load. I might pull the fmj bullets and recycle some powder, lessen the charge.

The 1972 western auto revelation mossberg 30-06 bought new in Ď72 shoots 5 shot nickle sized groups to this day at 100 yds benchrested.

For 38 spec itís small primers with unique for leadcast. For 357 itís small magnum primers 2400 for jacketed. I use unique for large pistol primers 44 leadcast and 2400 with win large pistol primers jacketed. I have all the correct primers instock.
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  #31  
Old 12-03-2021, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBill View Post
My 30-06 using a magnum primer with IMR 4350 powder I think itís a tad hot maybe old age is creeping up on me. Iíll check the load. I might pull the fmj bullets and recycle some powder, lessen the charge.

The 1972 western auto revelation mossberg 30-06 bought new in Ď72 shoots 5 shot nickle sized groups to this day at 100 yds benchrested.
I load a lot of 30-06 ammo for sure. Most times I use a CCI-200 primer or a Winchester LRP. When I bought a box of reloading components at an auction I got several thousand CCI BR-2 primers. (benchrest primers) I figured I would give them a try in my 30-06 hunting ammo. Well, they seem work well and since they are considered a higher quality primer I now load my hunting ammo with them. I have them so I use them lol.

M1 Garand ammo is a topic for another thread.
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  #32  
Old 12-04-2021, 05:20 AM
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People will shoot factory 9mm ammo in their J frames all day long but are terrified about loading a .357 magnum K,L or N frame revolver to anywhere near 9mm pressure levels???
Such a misleading generalization.

You're inferring that all "factory 9mm ammo" is at 35K psi (SAAMI max for standard 9x19 ammo), which of course they are NOT.

You're also implying that a full power 9x19, 35K psi load, is as powerful as a full power .357 Magnum 35K psi load is, which it is NOT.

A .357 Magnum case has twice the case capacity of a 9x19 case (13.3gr -vs- 26.7gr./H≤O).

Both filled with a max load of their slowest powder & using the same weight bullet (125gr), the .357 produces way more power.

Should they be "terrified" of the extra power (nearly double the muzzle energy)?

No, but most will opt for the watered down power of "white box" 9x19, or 38 Special power, if given the choice, but for you to mock people who can actually tell the difference between full power loads in each cartridge??

.
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:36 AM
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Power (energy) and pressure are not the same thing.
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Old 12-04-2021, 11:55 AM
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Well BLUEDOT you continue to amaze me with your inability to comprehend the written word.You completely fail to understand my post. Many handloaders fear loading to anything near industry std top pressures in the .38 spl and .357 mag. It has nothing to do with relative power between the .357 and 9mm which have the same industry std maximum 35,000 psi. And how is it in your infinite wisdom that you know factory 9mm isnít even close to 35,000 psi. Most published handloads for the .38 spl will be well below the 17,000 psi level for std pressure and most published loads for the .357 will be somewhat below the 35,000 psi level. A simple primer switch isnít going to result in sending pressure to the catastrophic level.

Last edited by alwslate; 12-04-2021 at 09:30 PM.
  #35  
Old 12-04-2021, 02:51 PM
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I must be missing something (or, an entire post, maybe?)...
  #36  
Old 12-05-2021, 09:30 AM
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Kind of thinking this thread has run its course.
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Old 12-09-2021, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
Well BLUEDOT you continue to amaze me with your inability to comprehend the written word.You completely fail to understand my post. Many handloaders fear loading to anything near industry std top pressures in the .38 spl and .357 mag. It has nothing to do with relative power between the .357 and 9mm which have the same industry std maximum 35,000 psi. And how is it in your infinite wisdom that you know factory 9mm isnít even close to 35,000 psi. Most published handloads for the .38 spl will be well below the 17,000 psi level for std pressure and most published loads for the .357 will be somewhat below the 35,000 psi level. A simple primer switch isnít going to result in sending pressure to the catastrophic level.
How cute!

With all of your misdirection & deflection you ignored telling us how YOU KNOW why people are "terrified" to load their 357s to full load capability?

And I'm not going down that same road about primers with you.

You've already told us in another thread that you know better than the manufacturers because of your vast experience.

Feel free to have the last word, which I know you like.

.
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Old 12-09-2021, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
How cute!

With all of your misdirection & deflection you ignored telling us how YOU KNOW why people are "terrified" to load their 357s to full load capability?

And I'm not going down that same road about primers with you.

You've already told us in another thread that you know better than the manufacturers because of your vast experience.

Feel free to have the last word, which I know you like.

.
I have yet to see you do anything except attack my posts. No real contribution of any kind from you. No chronograph records, no loads or demonstration of true understanding of the contradictions in loading manuals. You are one of those people who are unable to really contribute to a topic and tries to establish his ďexpertiseĒ by just attacking the real data of others.
  #39  
Old 12-09-2021, 04:57 PM
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It's too bad because I was enjoying this thread like many others but I'm closing it because it's going downhill quickly. If you want to bicker take it to email or a PM but don't involve us and the forum!
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