I have a 625 45acp. I have a good supply of both ammo and moon clips. Regarding 45 auto rim it’s been a while since I’ve loaded that cartridge and don’t recall applying a roll crimp.
An “expert” on another forum claims a roll crimp is necessary.
Since the 45 acp and auto rim are essentially the same cartridge why would a roll crimp be useful let alone necessary unless it is being loaded hot and the roll crimp will keep the bullet in place under recoil. What am I missing?

If the bullet has a cannelure , I would roll crimp ,otherwise I’d use a taper crimp

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the rules? there are no rules

The taper is the way to go when ammo is used in a pistol.

A roll crimp will not hurt things if used in a revolver.........
since "Headspace" is done a different way.

I only apply roll crimps on bullets with a crimp groove to accomodate one. Otherwise a roll crimp will either damage the bullet or be ineffective.

No crimp is fine if bullet pull is sufficient to hold it in place. If I get any "creep" I apply a taper crimp.

For bullets with no crimp groove, load some and just remove the flare. Measure their length. Load six and fire five. Remove and measure the length of the last round. If it didn't get significantly longer you're good. If it moves too much apply a taper crimp.

If a bullet has a crimp groove, I always roll crimp it.

I always use a taper crimp on 45acp

Try it both ways, Shoot groups from a benchrest at 25 yards. Shooting closer won't tell you anything. I've seen slightly better accuracy with a taper crimp. I only use cast bullets, but the same guideline should apply for jacketed bullets.

I use Auto Rim brass, but ACP brass can also be taper crimped or roll crimped (if you have a crimp groove).

I don't feel inclined to mess with my dies if I don't have to. I use the same set of dies for both, with a taper crimp. I have three .45 acp revolvers and they all like the taper crimp just fine.

We taper crimp all 45ACPs in 1911s and our Blackhawk convertible.
Never had a bullet get loose with stout loads.
The Blackhawk was my bullet puller for loads that were too hot for the Colts.
Any excuse to buy another gun can be justified.

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Have Fun/Stay Safe

Some years back, I bought a Star loading press from the '60s that was set up in .45 ACP. The seating/ crimp die was a roll crimp, once popular for the cartridge. I don't recall experiencing a problem with the roll crimped ammo in any of my pistols. However, I preferred taper crimped ammo because it was generally slightly more accurate.

A well-known competitor and 1911 gunsmith from years ago, Alton Dinan, wrote up a .45 ACP accuracy article in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN (mid-'60s, I think) and compared a number of machine-rested loads tested at 50 yards. Many were roll-crimped loads. At least one of these used the popular H&G #68 design; it has no crimp groove. If you know what you're doing and are willing to experiment with the degree of crimp, you can roll crimp a cast bullet that has no crimp groove without distorting the bullet or degrading accuracy.

I'm not offering any of that as advice, but some, maybe many, "makes sense" ideas that have been preached as dogma over decades don't stand up well to objective scrutiny.

I’ve shot thousands through 45 ACP revolvers and never found it necessary. I usually use .452 or .453 bullets and have never had a bullet come out and cause a problem.

If using smaller diameter bullets and the bullets started coming loose I could see that a roll crimp might help. But you’d probably be better off figuring what wrong with your reloading process that is allowing bullets to creep forward in a 45 ACP.

Never had any bullet creep using a taper crimp in 45acp. I suspect my critic was a keyboard commando.

Since neck tension holds semi-auto bullets in place, I don't "crimp" any semi-auto cartridge, just deflare. I have a 9mm revolver and so far, maybe 500 rounds fired so far with 450 being handloads, with no crimp, no problems. But I still check for bullets walking from recoil. If I were reloading 9mm just for the revolver I would roll or profile crimp into the crimp groove or cannelure, but I have 4, 9mm pistols too...

However, I have seen the Charter Arms 45 ACP revolver and I'm getting that itch again. I got a lot of primers, powder and quite a few cases (Both large and smal primed) three molds and a half ton of lead. Hmmm...

tapper crimp auto loads a roll crimp requires all cases be trimed same length a hassle.

To get the benefit of the 45 auto rim loading, a hotter load and roll crimp into a Crimp Groove can be used. It isn't necessary if you are loading the same load as in a 45 auto.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I roll crimp all loads fired in revolvers. Most cast bullets have a crimp groove and a roll crimp holds the bullet under recoil
and improves ignition by providing a little more bullet pull. In the AR with short SWCs with no groove a little roll crimp can be applied over the leading edge of the bullet shank because the AR head spaces on the rim.

If your load is a good one with a taper crimp, you will have the possibility of changing the performance by changing the crimp. In other words: "If it works, DON"T FIX IT!"

Since you have 45 auto guns too, all 45 ACP ammo should work in all guns of that chambering. (Just a silly little rule in my family)

Ivan

I'd agree, if you are making match grade ammo for competing at a high level.

But for ordinary accurate range fodder, I don't trim pistol ammo.

One thing I strongly recommend is to get a fourth die and thereby separate the seating and crimping operations. You have two seat/crimp dies. Set up one for seating, and the other for crimping. I've always done that with both pistol and revolver loads. Works.

Thanks for the replies

I have two 625s and have never used a roll crimp

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213th FBINA

Keep in mind if you roll crimp over the leading edge of the bullet shank the powder may need to be adjusted as the bullet is seating much deeper in the case and could cause over pressure. Measure your two different Overall Lengths and see how much it actually is. It might surprise you.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

In an auto the magazine inhibits bullet pull! In a revolver there is nothing to inhibit bullet pull. I have shot many HOT loads in revolvers and if you ever experience bullet pull in a 44 Mag and it ties up the cylinder, you will roll crimp ALL revolver rounds for the rest of your life!
jcelect

I feel VERY STRONGLY both ways.....

but since I'm signed on: I've only tapered crimped my 45ACPs for the past 50+ years.... but I'm NO expert by any means, just lucky I guess

J.

To use a roll crimp ... a bullet must have a place for the roll to go , a crimp groove or a cannelure ... or the case may bulge out .
Shooting 45 acp in revolvers will allow you to use a roll crimp ... some 45 bullets are designed for 45 Auto Rim ... a thick rimmed 45 acp .. usually a SWC design with a crimp groove .
You don't have to use a roll crimp in 45 acp revolver reloads but if the bullet has a place to put one and if your crimp die will put on a roll crimp ... it doesn't hurt a thing and there will be no bullet setback or creeping forward .
Most of us have 45 acp dies that only Taper Crimp ... but roll crimp dies are available . If you set says ... 45 acp / 45 A-R ... it may have both dies in the set or the crimp die may be adjustable to apply both ... check die directions .
Taper crimping will work just fine when properly applied ...let the bullet be your guide or just taper crimp em' all .
Gary

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Certified Cajun
NRA Member

Well crimping over the leading edge isn’t going to decrease OAL by much with short SWCs since they are usually seated to very close to the edge anyway. And beyond that I use loading manuals as guidelines not absolutes. I usually load to a velocity that I want, chronograph all handloads and adjust all powder charge weights as needed to get the velocity I want.

I guarantee that as soon as you finish roll crimping that last ACP, you're going to want to shoot them in your 1911.

You might want to but loads in AR brass don’t usually feed very well in 1911s

Agree. I have roll or profile crimped bullets in all my revolver cartridges since about 1970 and deflared only in all my semi- auto handloads, 99% in 2 steps but cannot ever remember trimming a case, 32 ACP through 45 Colt, never a crimp/accuracy problem with "variations" in case length...

How is the charge hole in the M625 configured? Does it have a shoulder for the case mouth to headspace from, or does it depend on moon clips to headspace the cartridge? If the former, a taper crimp would be correct; if the latter, either one would work. Generally, I taper crimp anything that doesn't have a cannelure. True jacketed ammo can be difficult to get a good roll crimp without the cannelure, but plated bullets will compress better when roll crimped than jacketed bullets.

I've never owned a revolver that can chamber a rimless cartridge, don't plan to. I save those for my semiauto's.

I've never used auto rim brass, but I always taper crimp my auto brass. I've never have problems with bullets jumping. I would expect auto rim to behave the same.

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Common sense isn't so common.

The 625 will pull bullets that are taper crimped and lock up the cylinder. Doesn't matter if you use AR or ACP brass. The clip acts as a rim so they both headspace on the rim.

I only apply a very light taper crimp to my 45 ACP ammo for my 1911. Never had any bullet creep. If I put that same ammo into my 625 it pulls bullets.

The person who claims that a roll crimp is needed for a revolver is correct. Most 45 ACP bullets aren't designed to be roll crimped but a few casters make 45 ACP bullets that can be roll crimped. I've also seen some FMJ with a cannelure for roll crimping. I just ordered some lead bullets from Bayou Bullets so I know they exist.

I would be suspect of anyone who says they shoot taper crimped ammo in a revolver.

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That's just somebody talkin.

It happens with 45 ACP also. Revolvers need roll crimps. Shoot them enough with pick up range brass and you will soon learn. It just takes some longer then others to figure it out.

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That's just somebody talkin.

I guess there are always exceptions and no real absolutes. I have four S&W .45 ACP / Auto Rim revolvers, a 625-3 3", a 625-6 5", a 25-2 6 1/2" and a 22-4 4". The newest one is the 22-4 that I bought new about fifteen years ago. I seldom use .45 ACP ammo, much preferring Auto Rim brass, but I taper crimp both cartridges, always using cast bullets sized at .452". I've never had a problem with bullet movement. I crimp as lightly as possible, just enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil. I use a taper crimp because I get slightly better accuracy than I do with a roll crimp.

I'm still using a batch of Remington Auto Rim brass that's been fired many times.

You can add a light roll crimp to your 45 auto rim bullets without damage, just don't overdo it. Like said many times above, bullet pull is a reality in revolver ammo. You can also use a 255gr bullet used in the 45 Colt.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I've tried the Lyman #454424 design, the .45 Colt bullet at about 260 grains in my 625-6. I didn't do extensive work, using only a few powders. Brass was all taper crimped. One load was quite accurate, but recoil, at least for me, became significant with the heavy bullet.

My favorite load for a long time in either Auto Rim brass for the revolvers or ACP brass for the 1911s has been 5 gr. Bullseye and the SAECO #069 design ( a copy of the H&G #68) at around 200 grs. or so for about 850 - 875 fps.

230 grn. bullets? Do you shoot range brass? Do you load toward the upper end of the range of the suggested loads from the manuals?

Lots to factor in there.

I also load cast .452 for a 625-8. I don't use AR brass but it shouldn't matter. What matters is the ability of the case to hold the bullet with neck tension. We all know that the taper crimp isn't what's holding the bullet in the case. The taper crimp should only be enough to bring the case mouth back to the proper dimension after it is belled. Too much taper crimp and you start crushing lead bullets. I've come across lots of range brass that won't properly size. Those are the cases that can still be used in a revolver with a roll crimp. Otherwise I load them for my 1911. A good test for neck tension is to push the loaded round into your loading bench with some force. If the bullet doesn't move you have enough tension for a 1911. My 625 will sometimes pull those same bullets. I know that seems pretty incredible but it happens enough that I roll crimp now for my revolver.

I've read that some reloaders are now using roll crimps for 45 ACP revolvers so it must be a thing. Both Redding and RCBS makes a roll crimp die for 45 ACP. The only people who would want or need those would be revolver shooters.

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That's just somebody talkin.

I’ve been hand loading for 45 years now, for a wide variety of pistol revolver and rifle cartridges.

I do not roll crimp unless I absolutely have to. Period. There is absolutely no value in it when it isn’t needed.

When do I have to? When I am shooting a magnum revolver cartridge in a lighter weight revolver where the recoil is so heavy that a taper crimp isn’t sufficient to prevent the bullet from backing out of the case. Those magnum cartridges also all have a .4 or .5 in the name.

I have a performance center 625 and it’s an awesome revolver for practical shooting, and with quality moon clips and round nosed bullets it almost loads itself.

But it’s still. 45 ACP and there is absolutely no need to roll crimp. The .45 ACP, like most semi auto pistol cartridges, was designed to headspace on the mouth and there is both no reason and no advantage to using a roll crimp with it.

Worse, once you do that you are forcing the cartridge to headspace on the rebated rim and in turn on the moon clip. Buy moonclips from a few different sources and then measure them. If you are headspacing on the rebated rim and moon clip, you’re going to have excessive headspace more often than not.

lostinozone-

I've used many bullets and have a variety of .45 moulds that cast bullets from about 185 grs. to 260 grs. I think most of the information your requested is in my other posts.

I have used mixed range brass, but much prefer all brass of the same brand and batch. Range brass, even if it's free, will never be better than using brass that's all the same. You can feel all the different neck tensions from the different brass when you seat bullets. If that's good enough for you, no argument from me. I just don't see such brass as really being free when you have to deal with the attendant headaches.

Of course, with all the current shortages, mixed range pickup brass may be all that's available for some and it will certainly work. Much better than not being able to shoot.

I've loaded plenty of max level cast bullet loads during load development for revolvers and have yet to have a problem with taper crimps. I've been using a batch of much fired Remington Auto Rim brass but have tried a few from a new batch of Starline. I don't mix the two. I haven't fired the Starline enough to know how long it will last, but I think it will be fine.

I have to disagree with some of this. The only reason a head space ledge is cut in a 45 ACP cylinder is to facilitate the revolver to be fired with 45 ACP ammo without a clip. Since the beginning the S&W 1917 revolver cylinder was cut with a head space ledge not unlike a 1911 barrel so the ammo could be fired without being clipped. I've tried this in my 625-8 and you don't need a clip except clips makes extraction and loading much easier. Most clips are 0.04" thick, at least the ones I've used are.

HEADSPACE

All of this talk about headspace had me curious so I actually measured from the front of the cylinder to the end of the case using a fully loaded clip and new ammo. 1.63".

Then I measured it again without the clip using the same ammo inserted into the cylinder. That ammo is head spacing on the cylinder wall, not a clip. 1.61"

That tells me that when I use clips the case is not using the cylinder wall to head space.

I don't have any AR brass but you can run the same test. I would doubt that AR brass would allow you to head space on the cylinder wall. Why would it? The entire reason for the introduction of the rimmed AR cartridge was to eliminate clips. The AR case should always headspace on the rim.

According to the dimensions given for AR brass and ACP brass using clips, the dimension from the clip face to the case mouth and the dimension from the face of the AR rim to the case mouth are the same. ..809". Neither one head spaces on the cylinder wall. The case mouth by design for both ACP and AR fall about 0.02" short of the cylinder wall ledge.

None of this however has anything to do with neck tension and revolvers pulling bullets.

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That's just somebody talkin.

I agree other than what I ment saying roll crimping needs brass at a uniform OAL. If the brass varies in length there will some rounds that due to longer case length will buckle when rolled and will not chamber in cylinder.

Headspace is the distance between the recoil shield (firing pin nose bushing) to the cartridge face when inserted in the chamber! This distance should be .002"-.010". On a revolver designed to fire a rimless cartridge a device must be used to hold the cartridge from entering the chamber too far! Hence the use of the 2rd, 3rd, and full moon clip! Also, the face of the cylinder must be machined to allow for the thickness of the moon clip when the clip is inserted into the extractor groove of the round. For those that use the Auto Rim brass, please notice, the thickness of the rim of the brass is much thicker than any normal rimmed brass. This thickness is necessary to make up the thickness of the moon clip and the rim of the ACP brass. For those of us shooting a 625 with moon clips a slight roll clip aids round entry into the chamber on a speed load. A taper crimp leaves a square shoulder on the round which can hang up on the cylinder edge unless the chambers have been chamfered.
jcelect

I mostly shoot 230 gr lead or possibly plated and have had a cylinder lock up because the bullets pulled out of the case. I don't give a big roll crimp but enough to dig into the side of the bullet without a groove. Another reason I have found for a roll crimp with moonclips is loading. I shoot IDPA and I had not had time to reload because we moved and I had not got things set up to reload. Bought regular ACP and had a terrible time reloading, turned out the corner of the case was hitting the charge hole edge. The roll is just enough to let the rounds drop in with out hanging up. Jim.

I load for both auto and revolver ( Brazilian and a S&W 1911)
My RCBS 45acp/auto-rim 3 piece die set came with a roll crimp die , which was irritating since all of my bullets were smooth plated berrys’
I had to buy a separate taper crimp die , $$, kinda made me angry
95% of 45 acp is loaded with a taper crimp and most of the bullets have no cannelure
RCBS was just giving me the shaft I figured
I have since learned that it’s good to have the option to be able to do either , but RCBS should still sell the taper crimp die in the set or make it a 4 die set and charge more .

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the rules? there are no rules

I agree. Most people are going to taper crimp for autos so no real need for a roll crimp. I taper crimp all of my auto ammo without issue. I only purchased a roll crimp die when my 625 started pulling bullets. They load easier also being roll crimped because the mouth isn't hanging up on the cylinder charge hole. My 625 doesn't have chamfered charge holes.

But as others have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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That's just somebody talkin.

So many responses already but to be short it works like this ALWAYS, no exceptions. Independent on gun and bullet cases, rim or not.

Canelure on the bullet or wadcutter = roll cr
Smooth bullet = taper cr

Otherwise you damage the jacket or coating on the bullet or deform it.

I load 38 specials with coated RN bullets and use a 9mm taper crimp to slightly bring the case mouth in, a light taper.

When I was establishing what depth to cut my chambers (specifically it's ledge/shoulder) to when I was converting my 625 from 45ACP to 45WSM I found that the four 45ACP cylinders I had on-hand ranged from .8170" to .8270" in depth, from the cylinder's breech face to the factory chamber's ledge/shoulder.

Even with these variations their depths still exceeds the maximum SAAMI case length by .008"-.018" so that moonclipped ammo or Auto Rims will not contact the chamber's ledge/shoulder.

This is just one of the reasons why some people have light strikes or misfires when they shoot their 45ACP ammo without moonclips as the cartridge inserts slightly deeper into the chamber (to headspace on the case mouth) which puts the case head & primer slightly farther away from the firing pin.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I'm glad you posted this. I never thought about it much until I realized I didn't know what was going on with my own revolver. Also not all revolvers are the same as you pointed out but the idea that the cylinder shoulder wasn't a factor for normal headspace in a 45 ACP revolver seems consistent.

Now there could be some odd ball out there that would prove me wrong so I'll never say never.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Agreed. Using moonclipped or 45AR cases in a 45ACP revolver shouldn't contact the chamber's ledge/shoulder if the case has the proper length.

Here's some of the dimensions & clearances I documented before I converted that 45ACP cylinder to 45WSM

You can clearly see that moonclipped cases are closer to the frame breech, & the firing pin, & sit higher on the cylinder face.

That said, I almost never use moonclips in any or my revolvers that are rimless cartridges.

My M325/625s & M610 shoot reliably without them.


.

Case head height above cylinder face, with case headspacing on chamber shoulder
------------------------------
min length (.888") case= .067"
mid length (.893") case= .072"
max length (.898") case= .077"

w/plastic moonclips= .081"
w/metal moonclips = .083" (.040" thick metal moonclip)

.

Headspace clearance:
(shell head to frame, with case headspacing on chamber shoulder)
--------------------------------------
min length (.888") case= .030"
mid length (.893") case= .025"
max length (.898") case= .020"

w/plastic moonclips= .017"
w/metal moonclips = .013"

.
.

Back to the roll crimp subject, while the vast majority of my 45 revolver handloads get a taper crimp, because of the bullets used, & irregardless of whether it's in an ACP or AR case, the ones that do have a cannelure (Sierra's 240gr JHC) do get a roll crimp with my Redding Profile Crimp die.

Some taper crimped loads are hard to keep from jumping crimp especially when it's a hot load in a lightweight revolver, like 45 Supers in a Sc framed revolver (325NG or 325TR).

Here using a re-sizing die with a smaller diameter can give you tighter bullet-case tension to help mitigate the bullet jumping crimp & creeping forward.

Years ago I was having this trouble & I found out that the RCBS TC sizing die I had been using for years had a .467" inside diameter (using my pin gages). Along with the nickel Remington cases I occasionally used, that had slightly thinner case walls, these loads easily jumped crimp even with when using minimal case mouth flaring before seating.

Both of the new Lee & Hornady dies I've bought since measure a tighter diameter, .465".

And the nickel plated cases? I trashed them. Never really cared for nickel cases anyway.

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Of course any roll crimped cartridge does need to be shot using moonclips or Auto Rim cases.
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Waiting for the break of day

I load a lot of .45 AR and roll crimp every one . You can use a taper crimp but the roll crimp is more secure . I roll crimp all revolver cartridges , period.

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I have been using the Lee Factory Crimp die for all semi auto reloading for many years. I pick up any cases I can find at the range. Never had a problem with bullet set back.

Many moons ago, when you could buy a 1917 Colt or S&W for about $30.00 dollars, we loaded the AR case for more velocity. Using 2400 powder and AR cases with a roll crimp worked fine. I wont mention the charge, but you can find it in Elmer Keith's writings.

I went to the range with a friend who was new to reloading. He had loaded up some 45 ACP brass with the 230 gr FMJ and used a full roll crimp. I thought they might not fire but they all worked just fine. Some people claim the 1911 extractor holds the case against the firing pin.

Every round you handload is an experiment. So, it there is any doubt in your mind about the bullet jumping the crimp, find out if they will. Mark one cartridge then measure the COL. Fire five rounds and then measure the COL again. Then repeat so the cartridge has had 10 recoil cycles. Check the COL again. If it gets too long in your opinion, redo your crimp.

Be aware that crimp can effect velocity and pressure.