Hi all. In a previous thread here, it was suggested I try this bullet for 38spl and/or 357mag defensive loads. I have an S&W 686 Competitor to run either case size. So I bought some.
g/ch .38/.357 158 gr. SWC-HP per 100/ in a plastic ammo box

I can not find any actual load data for it that bullet. I also have some plain lead 158gr SWC bullets for comparison.
.38/.357 SWC 158 gr. per 800

My plan is to pick one powder charge for both. Check the speeds and then mostly shoot the plain SWCs. The idea being the they should both feel and shoot about the same but the plain SWCs would be much less expensive for practice.

I am interested in a load ending up around 1000fps. Maybe 1100. I am working mostly with AA#5. I made up some rounds with each type bullet last night using 8.6gr of AA#5 which is about in the middle of the AA#5 load data for 158gr LSWC bullet in 357magnum cases. Here is my concern. The HP bullet is a bit longer from the crimp canellure to the base than the LSWC bullet or any other bullet I have where there is actual load data. The volume in the loaded case will be less. Do I have to worry about overpressure? I have a chrono so I can measure actual speed but no way to measure pressure.

It would be nice to find some actual load data with the LSWCHP bullet.

I use Power Pistol. 6.0 grains under a 158 LSWC cast from an RCBS 150 SWC mold is giving me 1050 FPS from a 4" model 15. This is a max PP load direct from Alliants site.

The closest actual load I have is from Western Powder v8. It calls out a Laser Cast (LC) 158 SWC with 8 to 9 grains of AA#5. I don't know that the bullet from LC has the same dimension as the one from Rimrock but the hollow point version with gas check is definitely longer and will definitely leave less volume than the plain SWC.

I've shot the 158 Laser Cast in the past. I don't have one in front of me to measure but the Rimrock SWC you linked to sure looks like the same, classic design. Of course, there could be other differences such as bullet hardness or diameter. So if I were you I'd start at 8gr and work up toward 9gr, hopefully getting to your velocity target without getting sticky ejection. I would think you could then work up to that same velocity with the HP bullet (maybe with a lighter charge) without pressure problems.

I would not try to push a soft bullet like the Rimrock bullets to 1100 fps. They are only rated @5 BHN. You usually want at least a 12 BHN or better for that kind of pressure and they need to fit the barrel well too.

I load that bullet with either W231 or better yet HS-6 but Power Pistol should do fine.

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SWCA #3437

Can you say more about that. I've been wondering what speed a bullet can take. I though the idea of the gas check was so they could go faster. What happens if a bullet goes too fast? Lead in the barrel? I am just learning about this stuff.

Yes, a soft (BH 5) bullet will start to lead at much over 800 fps. Harder alloy bullets (BH 12 or so) are very usably at 1,000 fps without any leading. A good alloy of about 96% lead, 2% Tin, and 2% Antimony will handle just about all of your cast bullet shooting needs.

You will also want to shoot a bullet of .358" or slightly over your bore diameter in order for the bullet to obturate in the barrel and prevent gas blow by which can happen with hard bullets sized to bore diameter. A good bullet lubricant will also help to prevent leading. The hard wax lube on most commercially cast bullets is just sufficient and not really the best. I still use the old NRA Alox lube (Lyman and RCBS brands) for most of my cast bullets.

Gas checks really are not necessary for target loads in the 38 and the 357 magnum cartridges unless you are really pushing the envelope in the magnum with soft bullets. I use them exclusively with my cast rifle bullets, but they are generally shot at around 1,800 fps and not the slower speeds of revolvers.

Good luck with your project. Cast bullets allow you to shoot a lot more for less than when using jacketed bullets. Paper, cans, dirt clods, etc., can't tell the difference. Well cast bullets will shoot just as accurately as the best jacketed bullets so you'll take no back seat in that area either.

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I think the idea of the g/c bullet as a hollow point is to be soft so it flattens out. The gas check allows higher speed than you could normally use for that hardness. But Rimrock doesn't quote a speed rating.

My understanding is that Buffalo bore uses this bullet in some of their ammo. here are some actual speeds they claim they get with that same bullet
source
Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo
➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch

so they are up to 1162 in 38spl

I don't want to go faster but I want to use my 357 brass. I know... uses more powder. That's OK. Plus this is mostly a learning experience.

The Western Powder data for AA#5 in 357 shows the LC 158gr SWC (BHN 12) tested up to 1200FPS. I am loading in the middle of the range so nominally maybe 1150. But based on some loads I did last weekend, I was tending to get actuals around 100fps less than suggested by the powder data. So I think I am OK at 1100fps with either bullet and I am trying for an actual speed between 1000 and 1100. But this gets back to original question... the effect of the g/c bullet taking up more volume leaving less in the powder area.

My ultimate goal is to have about the same speed for both bullets. Test the HP ones so I know the load is correct and then keep them around for the situation that will probably never happen. In the meantime, I can practice with the plain SWC ones for less cost. Those g/c bullets are like 37cents each.

When I was considering those bullets I emailed Rim Rock & they told me they suggest not going over 1150fps.

You are correct that the gas check allows a higher velocity to be used, than normal, with the softer lead bullets that give better expansion at the (relatively) lower speeds than full magnums.

.

This bullet had a seating depth for me that was .377" of it's .701" BOAL.

Many common 158gr JHP bullets seat ~.345" but some, like Nosler & Hornady, seat .366" & .370" deep.

Since your loads won't be full tilt, because of their speed restriction, I don't see a need to get concerned about it's difference.

Gas checked bullets act more like jacketed bullets than an all lead bullet does pressure-wise.

.



.

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In Handloader magazine #304 Brian Pearce reached 1014 FPS with your bullet in a 6” K38 with a +P .38 spl load of 6.8 grs of AA5.

According to Hodgdons the 8.6gr of #5 in 357 Magnum should be in the ballpark for 1100 fps with a 158gr LSWC: they show a MAX of 9gr.

Your results may vary...

Cheers!

The difference in volume is very small ... Too small to be concerned about with your middle of the road load of 8.6 grs AA#5 ... it will be just fine with both bullets . Load both and give them a test .
Don't let the "it must be hard" bunch deter you from testing .
Improved lubricants , coatings and gas checks all fight leading and here is a "truth" ... bullet size is more important than bullet hardness (bhn)
People way overate hardness .
Take those bullets , 8.6 grs AA#5 , load them up and then as we say in Louisiana ...
... CHOOT EM' !
Gary

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As gwpercle stated you'll be fine . Gascheck & a good quality lube are important , but fit is king with cast bullets . As longer as you stay @ 1150 or below that bullet won't overexpand . Cast hollowpoints take a bit of work as alloy needs to match impact velocity plus be ductile enough that it doesn't come apart . For those interested read Fryxell's articles on the Los Angles Silhouette Club page .
FWIW I've pushed the Rimrock copy of Keith's 170gr LY 358429 BHN 12 to 1400 fps in 357 mag & 1200 in 38/44 loads . It is a plain based design , has a good lube & fits my guns .

I think you said you have a chrono? I would just start light and find that 1040fps that Buffalo Bore does, no need to go faster than that with this bullet. It’s unlikely the different bullet lengths will cause a pressure issue at this level.

When I get the elusive “round tuit”, I’m going to try this... probably something like ~6g Unique (357 case).

Thanks, the last few posts are really great.
I have 12 each of both SWC and SWCHP all loaded up and will be testing tomorrow. 8.62grains AA#5

A couple of you mentioned lube. I have not read up on that yet. Sorry if its a newb question but where does the lube go? I see most of my bullet types have a ring of "wax" just below the crimp groove. I assume that is to help seal the bullet in the case? Should I be putting more lube on the base of the bullet before pressing in?

Edit: I watched some bullet lube videos on Youtube. Seems my commercial bullets are already lubed (that colored ring of wax). Do I need to add more lube that what they come with?

In my 686, 6", I have loaded a lead 158 gr. swc & Lhp , with good results.

38 special case......... 750 to 1024fps.

.357 case................. 788 to 1320fps.

With a "Soft Bullet" barrel cleaning is much quicker if the fps is at 980 or lower.

I have never used a GC with any of my lead bullets.

It is going to depend on your barrel, but the soft gas checked bullet should work OK for at least 12 shots at 1100 fps. Leading can easily be removed. Wrap some material from a Chore Boy all copper scouring pad around a brass bore brush for a tight fit in the barrel.

The powder used can make a difference in leading. I find that IMR4227 gives less leading with some revolvers.

I think that 158 gr HPGC at 1100 fps would be a good serious social purpose loading. I would use the 357 Magnum cases for this loading.

I shoot a lot of Rim Rock bullets in 9mm - 357 - 41mag - 45 acp.

The BHN varies greatly depending on the bullet style and caliber.

All the calibers and bullet style/weight are 15 BHN.

They have a .357 wadcutter in 15 BHN which shoots great.

I know they have 5 - 12 - 15 - 22 BHN lead available.

They also offer 22 BHN.

I believe they will still cast in 22 BHN if you want a particular caliber / style / weight.

Send them an email and ask, they respond quickly to emails.
The owner Frank is a great person to do business with.

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Oops,

Forgot to mention Frank will size to different sizes (diameters), just ask him he will occomadate the best he can.

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Red wax ring is the lube , no additional needed . If i have bullets that are missing some lube I either remelt / recast them or tumble lube with White Label 45-45-10 & use them in lighter ( 800 fps or less ) loads .

Cool. Thanks. That is what I thought. Guys above were talking about lube.

This is reportedly the bullet Buffalo Bore uses for their +P .38 load. I get slight leading in a 2.75" 66-8 but then it stabilizes. I have not fired more than 20 in a shooting session at a moderate pace. They are hot even for a +P but very accurate. I bought a several hundred from Rim Rock and plan to work up a load at 1,000 FPS in .357 cases and #5 will surely be one of the candidates but there are others especially HS-6.

That is exactly what I am doing. I've looked at the powder burn rate charts and AA5 and HS6 are right next to each other. But the data for HS6 is more like 1000 to 1100 fps while AA5 and AA7 are both more like 1100 to 1200 quoted. I figure my actuals will be less, hence my mid-rang AA5 experiment. I'll see how the first try works tomorrow.

I will go back and read all the latest posts, but...

The diameter of a cast lead bullet can be crucial when loading for accuracy at X yards...

The velocity of a cast lead bullet can be crucial when one is concerned about expansion for SD purposes...

The concept of acceptable recoil can be crucial... ETC.! (et al, ad nauseum)

No perfect load, powder, bullet, primer combination exists simply because YOUR ACTUAL RESULTS MAY (will!) VARY.

If you want perfect accuracy, or perfect expansion, or perfect velocities, then develop YOUR PERFECT LOAD FOR THEM. Just don't expect to get them all in one simple recipe. And don't expect the powder manufactures, the bullet manufacturers, or the primer manufactures or someone on the internet (or on this forum) to just give it to you: it DOESN'T EXIST! That's not the way it works.

Have Fun! Be Safe! Cheers!

I didn't realize you were talking about a GC bullet. They can handle more pressure.

It's not the speed of the bullet, it's the pressure you need to think about. There is a formula but gas checks change the numbers. Still, the pressure needed to generate 1,100 fps is probably excessive and possible over the +P limits.

Sorry for the mistake...

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

...and very likely nowhere even near the lowest 357 Magnum pressures you can find...

"Published". Whatever that really means...?

Cheers!

P.S. I guess what I'm trying to convey is that JUST BECAUSE there is material in print that calls for "X grains of Y powder", there are still misprints, transposed numbers or just plain bad data to deal with.

I guess I will find out where I'm at tomorrow. I have both the 158gr SWC and SWCHP with g/c loaded with 8.6gr of #5 in 357.

My goals are not really all that difficult. Just want a speed between 1000 and 1100 out of my particular gun. It is just a project I picked for myself. Maybe ill conceived but the logic makes sense to me. Trying for the claimed Buffalo Bore 38spl +p performance but using 357brass.

Your goal seems both reasonable and realistic, IMHO. Not misconceived. Logical as well.

Probably easily attainable...?

The nice part is you still have some wiggle room in the 357 Magnum cases: just make ABSOLUTELY SURE you don't load THAT MUCH #5 in ANY 38 Special cases by mistake! In your 357 Magnum pistol it probably wouldn't be disastrous, but if loaded in 38 Special cases and then, somehow found their way into a non-Magnum revolver, it could be a very serious situation!

You'll note there is a big pressure difference in Hodgdons +P MAX loads for 158gr bullets (around 6gr. at 19K psi) and the START 357 Magnum load for a 158gr LSWC with 8 gr. @ 37K!

Let us know how your project works out.

Cheers!

P.S. You might consider loading up a few test rounds at 7, 7.5 & 8gr. in your 357 Magnum cases to try out before the 8.6gr. ones: better to be absolutely SAFE & SURE than kind'a sorry...?

Well, there's a bit of a difference between 6.8gr in a 38 Special case and 8+gr. in a 357 Magnum case of the same powder (#5) and the same bullet at nearly the same stated velocities...?

Am I missing something: that extra 1.2gr seems like a lot for not much more?

Your goal is easily reached . Fact that you're using 357 cases makes it so as pressure is not as big a concern . You could in theory reach it with as fast as Bullseye or as slow as AA9 , 2400 , 4227 . I think between 6 to 7grs Unique would do it as would Herco , WSF , WAP, HS6 etc . FWIW I loaded same bullet over VVN340 for a DAV friend . Same ballpark velocity out his 4" Model 19 , is controllable & low flash .

The "wax" ring below the crimp groove is conventional bullet lube . The old school stuff still works for me . You do not need to add any additional lube ...unless you experience barrel leading ... but for now use them as lubed with wax .
Coated or Powder Coated is the new school lube , it takes the place of "wax" lube and is supposed to cure all ill's , heal the sick and raise the dead and cook supper for you (I'm only joking ) ... but coated bullets are a good option .
Commerical usually come lubricated or coated and sized .
For use in 38 Special / 357 magnum .358" is the standard size and is satisfactory 99% of the time .
If you slug your barrel ...take that dimension and add .001" or some go .002" over bore diameter . I'm a .001" guy ...
I've used both .357" and .358" size in a S&W model 64 and a Ruger Blackhawk and do not see any difference in accuracy or leading in my two revolvers .
Gary

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If you plan on shooting a lot of cast bullets - Slug Your Barrel - get the correct size of your bore then use that size cast bullet.

I did this with my Mod 58 & 57. Leading almost went away totally & accuracy improved dramatically.

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Who are? "They"

It was an article on the .38 spl with std and +P loads. The 6.8 grs was +P and all loads were pressure tested by Brian. If he says they don’t exceed +P pressures then they don’t. Handloader magazine #304. Research it yourself. Comparing Brian’s actual test data in real guns compared to any manual’s data is apples to oranges 🍎🍊

I really wasn't questioning your post (or the article)... Just trying to point out the seeming (at least to me?) contradiction: as previously opined, "published" load data is just something somebody wrote down at some point in time. Usually a good place to start the process when considering the sources: I believe someone recently and most elequantly pointed out the difference between just "reloading" & "handloading".

IMHO, of course.

Cheers!

P.S. If that 6.8gr of #5 with a 158gr bullet in a 38 Special case develops 1014fps (edited for accuracy) safely, why go higher in Magnum brass? Next time I get out my revolver dies I'll just have to give it a try...Not sure that I have a need to go even that high?

Of course, I'm going to have to work up to it: better to be Safe a little later than Sorry sooner?

The velocity Brian got in a 6” K38 was actually 1014 FPS with the 38+P load. And as to the real spread between the 38 and 357 my Speer #13 manual shows a maximum load of 10.0 grs of AA5 with a 158 gr jacketed bullet in the 357 and 6.6 grs with their soft 158 gr swaged lead SWC in 38 +P. That’s a bit more of a realistic spread I would think 🤔

The results are in. First I shot six commercial rounds as a control. These were Federal AE38K. The box says 130gr and 900fs.
My average was 887fps so I think that is very close. Full chrono report.....



Next I shot six of my lower cost builds I will use for practice.
158gr LSWC in 357mag brass, 8.62gr of AA#5, and Federal SP primer. I was trying for 1100 actual with load data suggesting 1150 or so. The average was 1114 with a standard deviation of 13fps. I think I pretty much nailed it.



Then I shot 12 of the same load using the 158gr g/c LSWCHP. The average was 1110fps with a standard deviation of 25fps. So basically the same as the cheaper bullet.



I'd say my experiment was a huge success. Both loads produced a PF of 175 so the cheaper bullet will feel the same as the expensive bullet for practice. Some of the talk about leading with the soft HP bullet had me a little worried but as far as I could tell, I didn't see any. I think the speed is maybe just a little hot for what I want as a long term load to make so I will back down to 8.3 gr and see what I get why that. I appreciate all the other powder ideas but seems like AA#5 is working and it's available. The only other thing I'd like to try in the near future is a "full power" 357 load with a 125gr xtp bullet which I also have. I will get Enforcer powder for that. The loads I shot today were average PF of 175 and they were easy to shoot with my 686 comp. Full speed with Enforcer and a 125xtp would be PF=208. I see a lot of posts suggesting the full power 357mag loads are hard on recoil. I want to see for myself

Muchos Gracias to everyone who helped me here.

Attached Images

	Federal 130gr 38spl.jpg (68.0 KB, 443 views)
	158gr LSWC 357 8.62gr AA#5.jpg (67.3 KB, 436 views)
	158gr LSWCHP 357 8.62gr AA#5.jpg (99.3 KB, 443 views)

rhodesengr, Thank you for your research and good work. I've been shooting the 158 SWC over 9.0 of AA#5 and it is a sweet spot. Appreciate your chrono work, what barrel length is your 686? I've been shooting my load out of a 3" bbl.

It's 6 inches.

Thanks for the great post ...
A while back I scored a lb. of Acc #5 had never used it but dealer had a shelf full and a sale .
I tried Acc #5 with 6.0 grs and the pressure was too low ...now going to bump it up to 7.5 grains and maybe 8.0 grains ...looking for a 38 Special +P+ (950-975 fps) to shoot in a Ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum .
Your testing has shown me the way !
Thanks,
Gary

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What bullet?
Do you have access to the Western Powder Handloading Guide V8? There is a large number of loads listed there and what I am basing my loads on. Here is a link that is currently working
https://ramshot.com/wp-content/uploa...ide8.0_WEB.pdf

I can see that a lot of the data is also ported to the Hodgdon site but I think the display in the V8 pdf lets you scan a lot of load very quickly.

I can tell you that I have run as low as 5gr of AA#5 in 38spl with a 158gr LRN bullet. That was for an event where we shoot close to steel plates so no jacketed bullets are allowed and low loads are encouraged. I chrono'ed that load at 700-ish fps.

I didn't know much about pistol powders when I first bought AA#5 but turn out it is pretty useful powder. Medium burn rate and has published loads for many bullets. More importantly, it seems to be more readily available than some other popular powders.

I've now been looking at data for the full spectrum powders and for the medium power stuff, I have not reallyt found anything I'd wish I bought instead. I did find that AA#5 will not drive a full power 357mag round (meaning 125gr at 1500FPS or 158gr at 1200-1300fps). I picked up some Enforcer and built some 125gr rounds with it last night. I want to "experience" full power 357mag and see how I like it. Testing this weekend.

For my slower 158gr 357's, I tried dropping down from 8.6 to 8.4 grains of #5. It was still around 1100fps so my next try is at 8gr. Just seems like 1000fps should be enough for that "FBI load" type round.

Just buy some Buffalo Bore, Cor Bon, Underwood, etc., 357 Magnum ammo and fire a few cylinders. It won't take you long to "experience" full bore loads & figure it out... Then you can load 'em up to your heart's content. If you so choose?

Before you hurt yourself!

Cheers!

Have more faith
I work with high-voltage and lasers all day in a lab where we test explosives. Actually true.

The fact is buying ammo where I live is very difficult. I'd have to find an online shop that even has your suggestions AND will ship to my FFL. I have bought ammo online. Places like Buds and Natchez will ship to FFL. Midway will not; only guns.

At this point it much easier to just make what I want. If the loads published are correct, then I am good.

Well as I suspected I didn't blow myself or my gun up
Had more fun with the chrono today. Still working on my 158gr FBI type load but in 357 brass. I think I am done. I dropped down to 8.0grains of AA#5 and the average was 1056fps. So I think that is about where I want to be and coincidentally, it is low end of the load range as listed in Wester Powder V8 for that bullet and powder in 357mag. It wasn't with the actual hollow point g/c bullet but the less expensive LSWCs which I use as a stand-in for the hollow points. Here is the chrono summary


Even more fun was testing some rounds using Enforcer with the 125gr XTP bullet. The range is 16gr to 18 gr. I started near 16gr and measured an average of 1340fps. I actually had 12 shots but some of them were crazy high like 9000fps. That must be some glitch with the chrono which I have not see before. Maybe I was too close. Anyway, that bullet is rated up to 1500fps so I am going to bump up to 17gr and probably call it good. Got to say I really like the sound these rounds make. Definitely more of boom than a crack and shot with my 686 Comp, the recoil was no big deal
Chrono data with the weird super high ones deleted.

Attached Images

	158gr LSWC 357 8.0gr AA#5.jpg (67.2 KB, 325 views)
	357mag 125 XTP Enforcer 16.2gr.jpg (84.8 KB, 330 views)

The problem with this idea is that..............
they use special "Blends" of powders to adjust their fps in making ammo
with test done every so often to keep their ammo safe.

Even with shotgun ammo, Remington pressure and fps test are done during a run,
to make sure the ammo is within spec;s.

We don't get to "Mix powders" to get perfect pressures and fps....
or at least we have been told, not to !!

With just one type of powder, all we can do is get close to their data, be it fps or their pressures..........
I don't think that getting both of these with the powders sold to us
will achieve both psi & fps, unless very lucky.

This has always been my understanding on "factory" ammo and as you have stated is controlled during the production run/lot. Somewhere along the line (I have been handloading for 60 years now) I came across information that the method for developing these blends is accomplished by means of a "closed bomb" test. I believe it was in some documentation from a Dr. Leonard Brownell. I will see if I can find it again.

I don't know about you guys but I have no plans to mix powders and I don't see the need. I am finding the speeds I want based on published loads and little testing with my actual 686.

Understood, and what we are presenting is reasoning why you should not mix powders, and that being, the vast majority, if not all, handloaders, do not have access to "closed bomb" testing methods... Just saying...

I don’t think anybody is advocating mixing powders...ever. Seems some misunderstanding here. The reality is, I think, that factories may mix different lots of powders to get the ballistics they want and create canister lots of powders that are not available to handloaders.

Did I blink when " mixing powders " came into the discussion ?

Yes OEM ammo mfgs have various options not available with consumer grade Cannister Powders . But in the OP's thread here so far , and contemplated further exploits , his Canister Powders will meet his goals easily with no issues .

Is that a typo , or did you switch bullets ? The thread started out with SWC and SWC/ HP- GC , but latest spreadsheet is showing LFP ?

It wasn't a typo. It was just me zoning on the correct name for the bullet. The plain lead ones are SWC. But SWC and LFP are pretty close to the same thing, yes? The important thing is to have a 158grain, less expensive bullet that I can load the same as the more expensive SWC/ HP- GC.