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03-07-2009, 09:54 PM
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I am Shooting a 460 s&w with handloaded bullets. I am having a problem with the cases not ejecting out of the cylinder. I have that problem with 265gr and 370gr bullets. I loaded up minimum and maximum loads (according to the hodgdon load data) and they all get stuck. I use 'Lil gun powder, and tried both large rifle and pistol primers. I actually blew a hole through one primer, and the rest have a black ring around the primer...does that mean the pressure is blowing through there? Can anyone tell me what is going on? Do I need my cylinders resized?
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03-07-2009, 09:54 PM
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I am Shooting a 460 s&w with handloaded bullets. I am having a problem with the cases not ejecting out of the cylinder. I have that problem with 265gr and 370gr bullets. I loaded up minimum and maximum loads (according to the hodgdon load data) and they all get stuck. I use 'Lil gun powder, and tried both large rifle and pistol primers. I actually blew a hole through one primer, and the rest have a black ring around the primer...does that mean the pressure is blowing through there? Can anyone tell me what is going on? Do I need my cylinders resized?
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03-07-2009, 09:57 PM
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Also, I am using hornady brass
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03-07-2009, 10:06 PM
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There have been other discussions of this issue. You can use the find feature to locate previous threads. Here is the link to one of them. Bruce
http://smith-wessonforum.com/e...531075123#8531075123
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03-07-2009, 10:08 PM
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Your difficult extraction, blown primer, and primer leaks are all bad indications of serious overpressure. Time to go back and re-check your loads for the proper powder, charge weight, and bullet weight combinations you are using.
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03-07-2009, 10:15 PM
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Could it be I'm over crimping the bullet? I am having that problem with even the lowest recomended powder weight.
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03-07-2009, 10:17 PM
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Have you been shooting .45 Colt before your handloads?Bruce
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03-07-2009, 10:20 PM
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yes, but I make sure to clean it real good before I shoot the 460's.
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03-07-2009, 10:21 PM
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This problem occured even with a newly cleaned gun
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03-07-2009, 10:22 PM
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Isn't Lil' Gun a really fast pistol powder? I was just wondering why you are loading such heavy bullets using that powder.
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03-07-2009, 10:29 PM
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Well there is load data for the bullets I'm shooting. Are you saying the load data from hodgdon is wrong?
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03-07-2009, 10:44 PM
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Well you do say you are having a problem. I'm not a loader of the 460 but fast powders and heavy bullets do not seem to be a good idea as there are better powders for heavy loads. We are just trying to help. I have read several threads about the 460 and the information provided is quite interesting. John Traveler and SmithCrazy have a lot of good information to share. A good example was brass separation due to firing 460 loads after .45 loads. The 460 case would grip the cylinder walls where the mouth of the .45 left residue and stretch the case. That is why I suggested a search of previous posts. There is a lot of good information from very knowledgeable members. It is very good you are asking questions here. You will get the best advice from the most helpful people on the internet.Good luck Bruce
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03-07-2009, 10:46 PM
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Thanks alot for your advice. I'll do that.
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03-08-2009, 04:06 AM
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Lil' Gun and the 460 should be just fine. My favorite load for the 500mag was using Lil' Gun and I had no pressure issues at all.
Marine, how are you getting your powder weight? Are you using a powder measure or a digital scale or what? If I could take a guess I would suspect you are getting more powder in there than what you are supposed to have.
One thing for sure, you need to stop shooting your rounds NOW. Something is terribly wrong. With the minimum loads there should be no problem with extraction, period.
Do you have any factory loads?
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03-08-2009, 11:19 AM
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Ya, factory loads work fine...no problems. I am using a 10 10 scale...not digital, and I am very precise with all loads and take my time and zero it out before each batch. I will compare it to another scale as to see if it is the scale that is messing up. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it goes.
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03-08-2009, 11:32 AM
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Check your bullet weight and diameter too. I've gotten incorrect weight bullets before. I think they were supposed to be 180's and marked on the box as such. They were actually 200's. If they're oversize on the diameter you'll get the same effect.
Are these cast bullets? Did you cast them yourself?
All the Best,
D. White
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03-08-2009, 11:37 AM
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both, I had the problem with my own cast bullets and factory bought casr bullets........I just compared my scale to another one, and they are the exact same, so it is not my scale, shouldn't be the bullets, could it be the gun?
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03-08-2009, 01:08 PM
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You stated it did OK with factory Ammo, just handloads are giving you a problem. Wouldn't think the gun was at fault. I'd check Crimp.
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03-08-2009, 02:00 PM
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Slug your barrel,measure your cylinder throats, measure your bullets. IF and I say IF they are too hard and too big, it may be causing this phenomenon. I doubt it though. The fit should be .001" bigger than throats and the throats should be .001" or more bigger than the bore diameter. The Hodgdon site doesn't list data for the some of the bullets you mentioned. Could you elaborate on how you got those loads? Their data says they use .451" jacketed and .452" cast, gas checked by the way.
Other than that, I need to see some pictures of your rounds. Before and after.
How hard are they to remove from the cylinder? Do you have to get a tool to get them out?
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03-08-2009, 02:40 PM
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The bullets are right at .453, the cylinder throat is .450. I am using data for the cpb wln gc. I was told that when reloading cast bullets you can use load data for whatever other kind of bullet that is stated for that weight. I am using gas checks on all loads. The cases are near impossible to get out. I had to carefully beat them out with alot of force. I do not have a tool, I used a small rod to bang on the inside of the cases while trying not to bang on the gun itself. I'd rather destroy a caes than my weapon. ...........I saw you are a Christian...I am a believer also. What a good combo of weapons, Marine Corps, and CHRISTIANITY.
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03-08-2009, 06:59 PM
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Lil'Gun is perfect for the 460. In a handgun round Lil'Gun, H-110, 296 are all considered slow powders.
The fact that you are getting black rings around your primers is a definate sign of way too high pressures and is dangerous!
Stop using rifle primers unless the source of data you are using actually recommends them.
There are a lot of guys who are self proclaimed experts that will say it's OK to do such things, but stick with what the data source you are using says. They have access to pressure equipment that very few others do.
A couple things to check.
1- Try a different lot of brass. I have bought brand new Remington brass for a 300 Weatherby, and using the same loads as in my old Rem brass, I was blowing primers. I later read in one of my gun magazines that Remington recently had turned out some too soft brass. Apparently I had gotten some of this. I switched to a different brand, and no more trouble.
2-How are you dispensing your powder? It may be that your scale is accurate, but whatever you are using to drop your powder is not.
3-Make sure that the bullets you are using are indeed .451-.453", and not actually .458" as is used in rifles. It doesn't matter what it says on the package they came in. I always check that, as soon as I get a new batch of cast bullets, regardless of whether or not they come from a reputable source or not.
4- Though you said that factory loads are fine, they aren't loaded to the SAAMI max specs. If the loads you are using are listed as max, they may be well above what the factroy loads to. Check the throats in your chambers (bullet end)and make sure that they aren't undersized as in .450" or smaller diam. If they are, that will raise pressures significantly, and quickly.
I didn't see the post above when I posted this It just goes to show that some of us are on the same page. Your throats are too small for one thing. Ideally, they should be exactly the same as the bore, but .001" over is almost as good with jacketed, and is ideal for cast slugs. They shouldn't be under though. A good gunsmith can open them to the proper diam. for around $50.
Cast slugs using a gas check will increase pressures over non checked, and if you are using data for non checked bullets, you need to backoff a couple of grains.
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">I too am a Christian, so it's always nice to meet others who believe.</span>
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03-08-2009, 08:58 PM
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Wow, good info from you guys! The hornady manual sayes to use WLR primers.
I will try new brass. The brass I used was once shot hornady brass. I compared my scale to another, and it was the same. I weigh out each individual one and do not just trust the powder charger. The bullets are definetly .452 not .458. I am going to try to single shot it and not use much of a crimp at all to see if I am crimping them to tight. I will then try some new brass, and talk to smith and wesson themselves for possible problems with my gun specs.
Thanks again all for the wise advice.
Praise be to God for his indescribable gift.
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03-08-2009, 09:21 PM
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Don't loosen that crimp! Whoever gave you that advice was mistaken! The big rounds with lots of slow burning powder need a heavy crimp to allow for consistant ignition and a good bullet pull. If you have a mild crimp, pressures will be erratic as will velocities. A quick call to any of the powder companies will back me up on this one.
Also, get those throats opened up to .452-.453"
That alone might solve all your problems. Most reloaders and shooters aren't even aware of this, and when you try to tell them about it, they have become so set in their ways and beliefs, that often they wont listen. It will definately improve the accuracy potential of your gun, and lower pressures.
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03-08-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
am using data for the cpb wln gc. I was told that when reloading cast bullets you can use load data for whatever other kind of bullet that is stated for that weight.
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Are you using data intended for jacketed bullets to load cast bullets?
If so, that is your problem. Lead bullets seal better, and take less powder than jacketed bullets.
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03-08-2009, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by OKFC05:
Quote:
am using data for the cpb wln gc. I was told that when reloading cast bullets you can use load data for whatever other kind of bullet that is stated for that weight.
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Are you using data intended for jacketed bullets to load cast bullets?
If so, that is your problem. Lead bullets seal better, and take less powder than jacketed bullets.
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Not exactly right.
Lead doesn't seal quite as well as jacketed bullets unless the alloy is perfect for the particular gun they're being fired in, but it slides down the bore with relatively little resistance compared to jacketed, thus pressures are less and the loads listed will almost always be higher in velocity, than those listed for jacketed bullets. If using jacketed bullets with loads intended for lead bullets, then yes, pressures will be higher by several thousand PSI.
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03-08-2009, 10:00 PM
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<span class="ev_code_RED">Edited in responce to the above edit-</span>
[Nice of you to edit after the fact to try to make me look bad. Your edit says what I've been saying. Lead takes less powder to get equal velocity, and that isn't what you had posted!]
You only listed part of the chart there, without showing that those two loads will give very similar velocities as listed. That is exactly because of what I said. Lead bullets slide down the bore easier and create less pressure. Therefore it takes less powder to equal the velocity of a jacketed load.
I fail to see what has got you so upset as to post a statement like the one above. I don't believe anything I have posted will mislead or confuse the OP.
If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Don't take my word for what I posted, call the powder companies and they'll back what I posted. If you want to be close minded and not take some good advice that's your right. I can back what I posted and you can't.
The only thing that will make a lead bullet create equal or higher pressure than a jacketed bullet, is if it has a considerably longer bearing surface than a jacketed bullet of the same weight.
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03-08-2009, 10:18 PM
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Maybe the data you used is a misprint, it wouldn't be the first time.
I just went to Hodgdens website and quickly took a couple of loads to give you an example-
These are listed for the .357
158 Hor. XTP 7.0 gr. AUTOCOMP=1181 FPS, @ 33,200 PSI
158 MEI cast LSWC 6.5 gr AUTOCOMP=1237 FPS, @ 27,000PSI
Lead = less powder, higher velocity, lower pressure. It's like this all over the powder charts, on all the websites. This is the norm.
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03-08-2009, 10:57 PM
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Marine,
I have loaded a LOT of 460. Exactly what charge weight and brand of bullet are you loading? I have had stuck cases only with W296 and they too were at both min and max loads. It made no sense since everything was "by the book". Solution was simple. I switched to 2400 for fast loads and for light loads I like either Unique (dirty, but I could care less) or my new fav, Trail Boss.
Crimp is not your problem and the 460 should use large rifle primers only.
I also only use XTP, Speer Gold Dot, Nosler, Sierra, or X-Treme jacketed....never cast, my trials did not show promise of high velocity and good accuracy with lead. And I HATE cleaning it out the barrel. However, I agree with Gun4fun, it is common knowledge that Lead bullets go faster with less pressure with less powder than jacketed. I also load ONLY lead for my 45 Colt. So you see I am not opposed to using cast lead bullets, but I don't care for them in a 460.
Bottom line...my suggestion is to get a box of XTP or Gold Dolt 250 grain (.452")and load them with say 14 grains of Trail Boss for a plinker or say 30 grains of 2400. I bet they do not stick. If they do...you do in fact have a "problem".
Hope this helps.
HD2
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03-09-2009, 06:38 AM
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I had a problem with the 460 Rowland,the cci primers blew out on minor loads,I switched to Federal 150 and they hold even on max loads.
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03-09-2009, 06:58 AM
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One thing to consider here is the OAL of the bullet he is using. You have to consider the length of the bullet below the crimp groove on the cast bullets. Some bullets of identical weight are longer than others. Also the length of the bullet that enters the case may be more. Nose profile of the bullet is one thing that can alter these measurements. More bullet in the case means a reduction in case capacity which will raise pressure. This is one reason they list a specific bullet for a specific load recipe. Just my two cents.
Cary
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03-09-2009, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cary:
One thing to consider here is the OAL of the bullet he is using. You have to consider the length of the bullet below the crimp groove on the cast bullets. Some bullets of identical weight are longer than others. Also the length of the bullet that enters the case may be more. Nose profile of the bullet is one thing that can alter these measurements. More bullet in the case means a reduction in case capacity which will raise pressure. This is one reason they list a specific bullet for a specific load recipe. Just my two cents.
Cary
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Cary- you are right on. I assume he is using load data from a reputable source. Most cast bullets have a crimp groove, and the data provided is based on that crimp groove for that cast bullet, so as long as he is following their recipe, that shouln't factor in.
I do know from first hand experience, that undersized throats will cause all sorts of accuracy and pressure problems as well as contribute to leading of the barrel with cast bullets.
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03-09-2009, 08:00 PM
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Have you checked your scale? If you don't have a check weight then weigh several factory bullets. If the bullet is off from the spec weight then have someone with a known good scale check against yours.
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03-10-2009, 05:33 PM
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Ya, I checked my scale against someone elses, it is right on.
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03-10-2009, 05:35 PM
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Could it be that even the start load data for the bullet is too high? I was using 36 gr of lil gun on a 370 gr cast .452 bullet with a large rifle primer.................off subject, but could I use a large pistol match primer on this pistol?
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03-10-2009, 05:43 PM
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I measured my cylinder throat at .450, I called S&W and they said to send it in and they will have a look at it. Hopefully that is the problem. Not that that would be a good thing, but Maybe that will fix it. I'll let you all know when I find out what they have to say. I called yesterday though and they said they could not tell me what the exact dimensions of the throat should be because they did not have the info there. Whats up with that!?!?
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03-10-2009, 05:43 PM
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Stick with whatever primer is used in the data that you are using. Cross reference your source with several others. Misprints happen far too frequently on powder charges listed for my comfort.
I use Lil'Gun in my .475 Linebaugh almost exclusively with cast bullets, and I have never had any trouble.
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03-10-2009, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by marine247:
Could it be that even the start load data for the bullet is too high? I was using 36 gr of lil gun on a 370 gr cast .452 bullet with a large rifle primer.................off subject, but could I use a large pistol match primer on this pistol?
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Not unless you want more of a visible problem! The other part of it is that the pistol primer is shorter and you may not be able to "reach it" with your firing pin consistently.
First off though, on their website, there is NO data for that bullet weight. How are you getting data for it? What is the OAL that you are using? Do you have to force the rounds into the chamber?
I hate to be blunt but it would seem to be something you are doing rather than the firearm. Could you get some pictures of your rounds? This would help us help you diagnose the problem immensely. If you don't know how to post them, my email is in my profile, send them to me and I will post them.
I hope to be a help to you even though I don't load for this caliber.
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03-10-2009, 06:03 PM
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Your throats should be .452-453" as I posted before. That dimension works great with .451-453 dia. bullets and will eliminate one possible (and probable) cause of the high pressures.
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03-10-2009, 06:09 PM
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Primers are important and need to be correct for your brass. If the pockets were formed for pistol primers, and you use rifle primers, they will be too high and stick out beyond the head. This could cause them to be set off while not in line with the bore!
On the other hand, if they were formed for rifle primers, pistol primers will be rather deep and as smith Crazy said, you may experience ignition problems.
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03-10-2009, 06:23 PM
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I just went and dug out an issue of handloader magazine that has loading info for the .460 S&W.
the article is by Brian Pearce (the best writer out there right now), and is in issue 242 August/September 2006. The article starts on page 74. On page 81 he has load data.
The following is copied directly from that list.-
360 Oregon Trail WNFP GC -Lil'Gun 40.0 gr 1,717 FPS
395 Cast Performance WLN GC -Lil'Gun 34.0 gr 1,477 FPS
395 Cast Performance WLN GC -Lil'Gun 36.5 gr 1,586 FPS (maximum)
S&W model460XVR w/ 7.5" BBL., Starline cases, CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers Temps during testing were 15 degrees Far. Saami maximum average pressure: 65,000 PSI
So it would appear your load is within specs, and even a little below. Of course it depends on what bullet you are using, but most of the heavy weights are designed to be seated correctly for use in .454's and .460's.
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03-10-2009, 11:23 PM
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Hey, I have been experiencing a similar problem. I have a PC 460 10.5", and I have been loading with hornady 300xtp, lil'gun, 40.0 grains (starting load, Standard rifle primers. I have experienced semi-stuck cases with this load, I had previosly used data from NwCP that was 38.0 and 39.5 without any problems. The case took abnormal amount of force to extract using the extractor rod. I believe it was only one case out of the five that had the problem though.
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03-11-2009, 12:54 PM
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To answer smith crazy's answer: I used 360 gr load data for the 370 gr bullet. I mean if the load data for a 395gr sayes to use between 34 to 40gr. I think I was well enough safe to be loading 370gr bullet with 36gr of powder.
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03-11-2009, 02:19 PM
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Well,
To a certain extent, yes, that is an assumption one can make MOST of the time. When It can't be done is when the bullet types are completely different.
Two lead bullets are NOT necessarily similar enough to exchange data like that. Nose configuration, bullet design, ballistic coefficient all come into play then.
I can hear you say "WHAT? BC comes into play." In this way, how deep does the bullet go into the case? If the bullet is a "1R" type bullet where the nose has most of the weight then you might get away with using an OAL for another type of bullet. If you go from a standard type of SWC to a Keith design, yo can get away with it too because most of the bullet weight is designed to be outside the case. But turn those things around and you can have a bunch more in the case or up against the cylinder throat and viola, pressure goes up exponentially.
How much "set back" can a bullet have in the 460 before the pressure spikes in a real bad way? Don't know? Me either, but I'll bet you it happens just the same.
Nose shape, bullet depth in the case can change drastically with different bullets. If it were me, I would run the minimum load over a chronograph, see where I was and back it down until I lost the pressure signs.
If you don't have a chronograph, get one!
FWIW
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03-11-2009, 04:00 PM
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+1 on smith crazy's post!
Get a chrono if you don't have one, and if you do, then use it as much as possible. They will give you all sorts of info if you pay attention to the readings.
For instance, if you are adding a half grain at a time in a large case like the 460, and seeing a steady gain of say, just for example (don't take this as literal) 50 FPS. Then all of a sudden you jump to a 100 or 150 FPS gain, this is a sign that you have crossed over into too high a pressure zone/safe pressures and need to back down to at least the last increment that was tracking with all the others before it.
<span class="ev_code_RED">These are just random numbers used for an illustration, don't take them as fact!</span>
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03-12-2009, 06:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Originally from Knoxville
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Why would anyone give this guy direction to make changes to his gun when the damn gun shoots just fine with factory rounds? It's not the gun it's the reloads!!
Be careful when taking advice on a gun forum make sure you know who your talking to.
Smitty
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03-12-2009, 07:23 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Michigan
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This is a reloading forum. What else are we supposed to talk about?
I don't believe anyone was giving advice on making changes to his gun, other than having the throats changed to proper diameter. We are talking about his reloads and things he can check.
Factory loads do not run at SAAMI specs, they are running several thousand PSI under normally. So it may not be his reloads. If his loads are a little warmer than factory loads, but still within SAAMI specs (as all loads listed in the manuals are), and his throats are undersized (as his are), then he might experience exactly what he has been.
He asked for opinions and advice, and that's what we're giving him.
Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else?
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03-12-2009, 07:38 PM
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slightly OT but the talk of cylinder throats reminded me of this article....I bought the reamer from Dave Manson for my Uberti. Yes they were small and yes the gun shoots better after reaming them.
HD2
http://www.gunblast.com/Brownells_Reamer.htm
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03-12-2009, 07:43 PM
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He makes great stuff. I only live about 25 miles from his shop. Thanks for the post!
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03-12-2009, 08:42 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
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Quote:
I saw you are a Christian...I am a believer also. What a good combo of weapons, Marine Corps, and CHRISTIANITY.
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You will have to forgive me, my brother, I just realized I missed this part of your post! "Oldtimer's" I guess!
I have training in two types of warfare, natural and spiritual. I think of the Frank Peretti books. If, they are novels so you can't build doctrine from them, they are anyway near what really takes place in the spiritual realm, I think knowledge of that real is WAY more important!
Once again, sorry for the poor reading habits, I'll try to do better in the future!
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03-13-2009, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else?
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You damn right 'cause I'm not the one telling him to go making changes to his gun.. Anybody that tells someone to alter their gun when factory ammo is shooting just fine in it is an idiot!! And anybody that would take that advice is even more stupid!!
Smitty
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586, brownells, chronograph, classics, colt, commercial, crimp, extractor, gunsmith, hornady, nosler, primer, remington, sig arms, smith and wesson, starline, uberti, weatherby |
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