Hi:
I have been loading a .451 200 grain JHP bullet with 20 grains of #4227.
Recoil is ok and accurate is very good.

However I have a problem with the bullets in the cases working outwards and binding the cylinder.

The jacketed bullets have no crimping groove and I have tried a tight crimp but the bullets still work out.

Perhaps these bullets are not for a revolver ?

Are you using a taper crimp?

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S&W factory revolver armorer

I am using a roll crimp

IMO the bullets are made for 45ACP usage. Their dia. is low for the Colt bore as well.

This. Use the right tool for the task. If you insist on following th8s course go with a taper crip.

Jacketed bullets, even undersized ones at .451" are much more forgiving than cast bullets. While not the best bullet for the .45 Colt, they'll probably work okay. May as well use them up then get the right bullets. You'll have to experiment with the degree of taper crimp to get it just right (no more than necessary) so there is no bullet movement under recoil.

Simplest thing is to cease loading the 200gr ACP bullets. There is a ton of 45 cal bullets to pick from. Depending on what you are going to use the gun for there are many cast bullets availed much cheaper than jackets.
My field load for 25 is original 250gr cast / Unique at duplication of original black powder velocities. But usually am shooting 242 gr WC at 750fps also with Unique. Both loads easy shooting and mild recoil.

Assuming you don't have a tapper crimp die, Use the sizing die, set it so it only "Crimps" about 1/16 to 3/64 in of the case with the bullet already seated. That should hold as good or better than any crimp die crimp!

Ivan

You can use the roll crimp with acp bullets but you have to seat them deeper and crimp a little over the nose and back off on the powder. If you crimp where the nose starts to drop a little it wont move. I do that with lead .452 acp bullets when I'm out of crimp style bullets. If you have loaded bullets you can seat them deeper and recrimp without breaking them down.

I would guess that a jacketed .451 is too small for a 45 Colt case and the roll crimp may not contact the bullet enough to lock it into the case. I would say that a .451 bullet is best kept for 45 ACP. I have always used .454 lead with a roll crimp and never had any bullet movement, but never shot jacketed 45 Colt ammunition. Here is a different heavy load below.

I recall similar problems when trying to load 38 S&W with 38 Special bullets, as it was hard to secure the bullet in the larger case.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Likely 45 acp bullets are smaller dia thatn 45 LC bullets. While it always helps to specify what exact bullets and brass you are using, you might consider using a 45 acp sizer to neck down the 45 lc brass. Then use 45 acp sized plug expander before seating the bullet. This will increase your case neck tension, and MIGHT work.

However if you arte trying for high velocity (heavier recoil) with a 200 gn jacketd 45 acp bullet, it is possible nothing will work except canneluring your jacketed bullet, and roll crimping into the cannelure. This is more effort than most are willing to go to.

Or just get a bullet designed for 45 LC

Wouldn’t a 45 acp seating and taper crimp die work once you adjust it to an unfired round? (Assuming you have one)

Your expander plug is opening the case too large a diameter. Can you swap the plug with one from an ACP die ? They used to make a tool to roll a canelure into bullets without .

.451 is undersized for the .45 Colt. My first recommendation to try is a .45 acp sizing die. As posted above, don't expand the case mouth any more than is necessary to start the bullet in cleanly.

The ACP die may not make the difference, but if you have one I believe it's worth trying. I've successfully loaded .45 Colt, .45 Win Mag, and .454 Casull using an ACP sizer.

A Lee Factory Crimp Die works great. The FCD made a believer of me years ago when I couldn't get 300gr .44 Mag bullets to stay in place under recoil.

15 or so years back I called Lee and got a .38 Super undersized sizing die for use with .355 bullets. My Super shoots .355 -.357 well, but some brass simply won't hold on to the .355's with a standard .356 sizing die.

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

I see several posters speaking about different sizes for the 45 ACP and the 45 long Colt. When did the factories go back to using two different sizes? I thought they standardized the bore back in the last century?

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I have collected information on this subject for some time and the best advise I have found is below:

Colt .45 revolvers made until early WWII had barrels had .454" groove diameters. After WWII diameters of .451–.452" were produced, but I have post-war 45 Colt revolvers that still slug .454”.

.454 has long been the standard caliber for 45 colt. However, given the many manufacturers of 45 colt single actions the actual bore diameter can vary a lot. Also since .451-.452 is standard for 45 ACP and a lot of people interchange bullets, particularly lead cast bullets you will find more .452 around. Not much can go wrong shooting a .452 load through a gun chambered .454 (and accuracy will sometimes surprise you) but a .454 heavy load in a 45ACP could be a problem.

Ruger chambered Blackhawks with interchangeable 45 colt and 45 ACP cylinders and I believe they started cutting barrels to .452”. Only way to tell for sure is to slug the barrel. Unless you are really trying to load heavy you will not see any problem shooting .454 diameter bullets out of the Ruger. .002 inches is not much, and many shooters have consistently gotten the best accuracy out of .454 bullets even in a .452 barrel.

The issue with jacketed bullets and roll crimps is that many dies will not depress the copper enough to hold the bullet. Adjustable taper crimp die might be the best answer.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Sticking with jacketed bullets for the time being, most bullets for the 45 LC are still a slightly larger dia than for the 45 acp. And of course that depends on brand. Then there are brass thickness's, which are not all the same. In addition, there is what the actual diam of the bullet is , as compared to what the box says it is and they're not always the same. At least with the dies currently owned, the 45 LC dies are a larger inner dia than the 45 acp dies. .

All the above points to why it is much easier to help people if they actually specify what specific bullet and brass they are using.

Certainly agree a LFC die might help, but if applied too heavily might actually hurt.

Unfortunately imo, Speer no longer makes the cannelured 200 jhp (original flying ashtray), which is what i use for 45 LC and 45 AR. They also appear to have discontinued their cannulured 225 gn jhp.

Standard bullet size for .45 Auto is 0.451" for jacketed bullets, 0.452 for lead. These bullets typically do not have a cannelure for roll crimping, but the lead bullets will allow a roll crimp by crushing into the lead. Standard bullet size for .45 Colt is 0.452" for jacketed bullets, and 0.454" for lead.

A .45 Auto case mouth diameter is 0.473", a .45 Colt case mouth is 0.480" (outside diameters) Without some means to get a strong crimp on the bullet, .451 bullets won't work well in .45 Colt due to low neck tension, causing the issues you are experiencing. A roll crimp is preferred for .45 Colt, although a taper crimp should work as long as it can be made deep enough to prevent setback or creep in the bullet.

I load for both cartridges, but I don't shoot .45 Auto in a revolver, all I have for it is a 1911. I shoot .45 Colt in a M25-5. I keep bullets for these two cartridges separate, and only use the cannelured .452" in the .45C

.451” is the more or less standard diameter for .45 ACP jacketed bullets, while .452” is the more or less standard diameter for cast or swaged lead .45 ACP bullets.

For .45 Colt .452” is the current standard for jacketed bullets and .454” is the current standard for cast or swaged lead bullets.

There is some obvious overlap between cast and jacketed bullets between the two cartridges.

For all practical purposes .451” jacketed bullets will shoot just fine in a .45 Colt.

The exception you’ve encountered is bullets backing out of the cas under recoil.

As noted above, the Lee Factory crimp die will solve the problem. Period. Full stop. No need to use “real” .45 Colt bullets, etc.

That said, using a .45 ACP sizing die and expander ball will also solve the problem.

However, I’ll also suggest just using a .45 ACP expander ball or assembly in your .45 Colt die. The whole theory works because the sizing die reduces the case to significantly less than the bullet diameter and the expander then ball brings it back out to a diameter that will hold the bullet securely. Your .45 colt sizing die is probably already sizing the case enough, the expander is just bringing it back out .001” too much.

My S&W Model 25-5 6" rear sight has been adjusted all the way down.
With 255 grain cast bullets it still prints high.
Useing a lighter bullet brings the POI lower with a hotter powder charge.

I will use .45acp dies as suggested to hopefully cure the bullet moving forward issue.
Anyone have a powder charge for a 200 grain cast bullet using #4227 ??

Lyman #45 (1977) says 20-26 grain of 4227 for 185 grain cast and 20-24 for 230 grain cast. Velocities were basically the same 930 to 1130. Seem hotter than I would like for a M-25 any dash!

My go to 45 Colt load is 6.7 of WW231 with any cast bullet! With 220-230 RNFP Cowboy cast bullets it runs 720-750 fps, is very accurate and on knock down plates, even when hit low, they fell with authority! I currently have 6 revolvers of 4 barrel lengths 3" to 7 1/2" and 20" and 24" lever carbines. this load is an all day long shooting load.

At one cowboy match on a 25-yard rifle target, you got a bonus for a rapid dump of 5 rounds on a 4" round plate. My 5.5" Vaquero went 5/5 in less than 2 seconds! I earned the bonus!!!

Ivan

I would get a 45 ACP expander plug. Then drop back to the start load. Crimp the bullet over the ogive which will give a good crimp. This means seating the bullet deeper until the round part is just below the case neck. The roll crimp die will work fine.

Or, just get some 200 gr cast cowboy bullets that will have a proper crimp groove. They make them in coated if there is a leading problem.

I checked for 200 gr cast loads and found some in the older manuals. Speer #8 shows start loads above what you are using. Bear in mind that Speer #8 is know for heavy loads. Use at your discretion.

Search for "45 Colt with 200 gr cast bullet and 4227 powder". There is some good info.

From left to right. Win 230 fmj, Speer 200 gn "flying ashtray" and 200 lrnfp.

The wasp waist is from neck sizing the brass with 45 acp die, and 45 acp expander plug. Some may not like the look, but imo the increased case neck tension provides benefits.

The 200 lrnfp is over 7.5 gns hp-38 for about 860 fps from 4 5/8 barrel, very accurate and the poi is noticeably lower at 25 yds.

The 230 fmj from Win has a dia of about .449 to .450 and does not creep. Used as a "lead chaser" in smoother barrels.

The 200 gn flying ashtray is a vermin round for the pistols sighted in for the 200 lrnfp.

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Rear sight adjustment is not the same as a rifle went talking about a handgun! The difference is the RECOIL ARCH of the barrel is much higher! A slow heavy bullet will hit higher than a light fast bullet at the same distant! This problem becomes really apparent when you move the distance out(50-100yds) and crank up the speed!

Bullet pull problem is usually associated with revolvers because of the cylinder length/bullet seating depth! In an auto the mag holds the bullet in the case to a max length and the chamber/barrel is not separated. I shoot a lot of auto rds(10mm, 40S&W, 38 Super) in bowling pins matches using revolvers and usually use the heaviest bullets I can find! Too many times these bullets have no crimping groove. What works for me is to seat the bullet deep and crimp on the beginning of the bullet ogive, being careful not to produce a compressed load! The OP is shooting the 45LC, which has a large case capacity and a light bullet, which means he should not have any problem with powder compression!
It works for me, jcelect

The bullets are too small in diameter. Dimensions can be all over the place with modern .45 Colt revovlers, but the SAFE BET is to always go with .454 diameter bullets. Most revolver chamber mouths are very close to .454" which promotes accuracy.
BORES will almost universally be .451" which creates major accuracy problems for the .45 Colt.