Or can we get along with what we have and all the wildcats?

One of America's favorite varmint cartridges is the 22-250 Remington. It was originally a Wildcat, the 22 Varminter. It became so popular that Remington standardized the chamber and loading.

That is natural selection! Not like Winchester, dumping the Short Winchester Mags, on us. Now everyone has found that there was no advantage to the "Fat Pigs" except Winchester sold some extra rifles so everyone could find out for themselves! Of course, the gun writers got to make a living telling us how great these new whiz bang rounds are. (Like most advertising people, "Lying with a smile on their face", has become their way of life!)

So now days, 6mm as well a 30 cal are getting the New and improved treatment. 10-20 years ago, it was 7mm. I remember the 20 and 17 fad. there was a 14 and 19 fad too, but nobody fell for those.

Tell us how you really feel!

Ivan

Its on their dime, not mine, so the more the merrier.

They are always going to be trying out new stuff to see if it takes off. I bought a pair of .260 Remingtons when they came out and I love them.

I just don’t get the harrumphing when a new round comes out. People will trot out the idiotic “answer to a question nobody asked” line, despite the fact somebody asked it somewhere. Please folks, give that one a rest.

Arguably all you need is a Model 10, a 10/22, a Remington 870, and a bolt action 30/06. But what fun is that?

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

To my mind, there haven't been any "needed" new cartridges since about 1955, many would argue 1925 or earlier. However, many since 55 are very cool, 280 Rem, 358 Win, etc.

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213th FBINA

.308 instead of '06 and all bases covered. Should be standard issue to all Americans on their 18th birthday. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

I've worked with a lot of cartridges (only about ten handgun chamberings) over the last fifty-five or so years including many wildcats. Enjoyable and interesting work doing load development for all of them until you one day come to the realization that there are so many duplicate and overlapping cartridges.

Yet it's hard to put a practical perspective on all this. It's fun and keeps boredom in check when you hunt with a 7x61 Sharpe & Hart Magnum instead of a dull 7mm Remington Magnum despite the two cartridges being ballistically identical.

Just replace the word "need" in your thread title with "want", or better still "seek", and that probably tells why the factories keep making new chamberings.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Wow! I've got that, so I guess I'm good to go Only except the 10/22 is a Marlin 39 which is more better in its own way. Gotta go make dinner now.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

About the only hole in the spectrum is a rimless centerfire between 25 and 32 cal in about the 1200 - 1700 fps range.
There's been a few tries, usually squandered in some pistol.
Essentially, it'd fill the role of the 22LR, but be reloadable and cast lead friendly

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it just needs more voltage

I must old fashioned since my favorite rifles to shoot are the
little .22
bigger 22/250
bigger 270
and last but not least, my old
1903 custom 30-06 rifle, with scope or iron peep sights.

However a 6mm or 7mm is nice if you have them.

I bought a 270 WSM on a spur of the moment and soon found out it was mostly a big nothing over the standard 270. I like to have never got a fool to relieve me of that turkey. Glad it is gone.
I feel the same way about most of these new introductions. The 6.5 Creedmore is a prime example. It will not do one thing better than the 6.5X55 Mauser or the 260 Remington. It has just gotten loads of hyped up press. Nothing wrong with it but nothing new either.

I experimented with a 7mm Rem Mag, just to see for myself, if it was, or could be, better than a 30-06. I decided: Yes, at the camp fire. Otherwise: No, because of the exaggerated muzzle blast, the bbl heat, the shorter bbl life, the short brass life... If ya can't be happy with what puts meat in the freezer than don't complain about engineering. Also, how can it be that I won the leg match at phoenix 2001 using a M1A, 7.62 over all the other Matty Mattel black guns?

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Bought (actually gifted) a 270wsm in about 2005 and honestly I have found it to be a great gun.

Never met a rifle that I didn’t enjoy shooting. Have shot some that I decided I didn’t want to fire again after feeling the recoil. Variety is good.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

If the manufacturers didn't come out with "new and improved" cartridges occasionally they would go broke. Gotta give people a reason to spend their money on something even if it duplicates the performance of an existing cartridge.

I am in the 22-250 -308-223-270 crowd. You can get supplies everywhere.<except primers>The administration put a halt to primer imports several years ago. I have never owned a 270 but I visited a small town in Missouri close to Jeff city during deer season and drove around and everyone had a deer hanging in their front yard. We had a social meeting that night <mayor and all>

and all the deer were killed with 270's. Maybe it was a city ordinance. AND 30-06- If you went to dcm meets you could shoot 147 grain for free. You could buy a container 260 rounds fmj in clips for $50 and it set on the shelf. I bought some and didn't even have an 06.

I’ve killed big game with a 270, a 308, a 30-06, a 30-40 Kraig and a 350 Remington Magnum. After all, that’s what they’re for.

They all work just fine. I can’t imagine how their performance could be improved in the field.

Seems like the industry markets new cartridges to sell new guns. Since precious few buyers actually use their rifles on game, they’re limited to bragging on their new gun at the range. That’s where trivial ballistic differences come into their own: marketing new guns.

A significant portion of the market for new cartridges is shooters with little or no experience actually using ANY cartridge in the field. These folks form their opinions on those trivial differences in ballistic table velocity (and energy). The thing these folks miss is that these ballistic differences aren’t noticeable in the field.

Of course, the industry motivation for new cartridges is increasing sales of guns: need a new gun to shoot the new cartridges.

Good grief! Take a deep breath. For one thing some of us don't hunt anymore and prefer benchrest for it's own sake. It's a different sport where the trivial is what it's about. The rifles we use are not what I would hunt with. Although I'm always looking for a nice Winchester 70 Featherweight in .308

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Time wounds all heels

The only reason I have a few different cartridges is the fact I like the rifles. Example, 45-70 levergun and a Trapdoor. THE 303 British because I like the Enfield. There are a few others but I think I made the point.

I like the 38/357, 12 GA shotgun, 22lr guns of all types and the 30-06.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

“Need” ?! What means this odd term?

We’re talking gun stuff, yes? Unless we are discussing oxygen, food, water or sleep, let’s leave the off-topic and silly words like “need” out of the conversation.

Do we really need people to tell us what we really need?

I like the variety. In fact, diversity of caliber has served me well during ammo shortages.

Re: OP. Need hasn't got a thing to do with it! :-) Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

I've liked some like the 204 Ruger and 17 HMR.
If they have enough of a niche market they last.

Isn't that the way it's supposed to be ?

Things can get pretty stagnant with no innovation

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Need is often proportional to disposible income .

Well it does give the gun scribes another topic to beat to death.

Just how many 9MM Vs .45 articles can be written or the bolt action is obsolete-yes or no?

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

My experience is that the 7mag has got it over a 30-06. And it ain’t even close. Providing your long range shooting. The 6.5 is the 270 that millennials buy. As for the WSM they serve no practical purpose. Ammo is expensive and hard to find. Now if your a hand loader everything I just said doesn’t matter because you enjoy working up loads. I get that. I have a 22mag and a 22 Hornet. Why do I need any of the .17s ????

I too am one of those guys who enjoys seeing new stuff and appreciates variety and choice. Now may seem like a poor time to introduce new cartridges, when supplies of existing designs are in short supply, but hopefully that will subside - some day.

I think new stuff is crucial to keeping the youngsters interested. On the www I see the 20-somethings talking about the .30-378 Weatherby like it’s some sort of new whiz-bang, and the .300 as a “classic.” Any old rifle hack knows the .30-378 has been around for a long time, and .300 Weatherby rifles, to me, are 100% current, not revivals from a bygone era. Perspective!

The marketing guys, I presume, know all this stuff inside and out and likely are doing what they think is best to keep the money rolling in for the manufacturers. I’m not against that.

My uncle hunted everything from antelope to moose with a Model 70 in 30-06. Birds with a Model 12 and small game with a no-name 22LR. He didn't "need" anything else. He wasn't a gun aficionado like most of us, so "want" didn't enter into it.

I have an interest in experimenting with something new. I have a boatload of odd cartridges I load for, or did at one time. Who "needs" a 350 Rem Mag? One day, I may get to use it on an elk or a moose. Who needs a 6x47 Remington. Good for punching paper, the rifle is too heavy to carry in the field for varmints. Won't win benchrest competition anymore.

I could go on . . . I think I could be the market objective of many gun makers.

Now that I think of it, I don't have a 6.5mm. Maybe it's time to buy a 6.5mm Creedmoor. A fad? We'll probably know in the next 20 years.

The older I get, the more ridiculous it seems.

But then I'll never own a Tesla, so there is that.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Except I prefer the .270 over the 30-06. Read to much Jack Conner while in barbershops when growing up.

But since the .270 is a necked down 06 I can get by provided I have a resizing die.

Sometimes there is a need for a new cartridge. Look at ones produced for the AR-15 frames, all trying to create something better than .223 in the AR rifle. I shoot a 6mm Mongoose, a necked-up, reformed .223 case. t's pretty dang potent. Why not the 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC, a commercially available round? Because they have limitations, IE, different (and weaker) bolt, different (and often questionable) magazines, etc. The Mongoose, based on the .223 case, needs only a barrel change.

Sure, many "new, latest and greatest cartridges are a waste of time, but not all of them.

It's the unimaginative era of shooting at present.

I could do without a bunch of the cartridges introduced in the past 20 years, trading the attention expended on them in favor of renewed attention on some truly dandy cartridges that no longer generate a proper amount of attention from today's shooters who don't know any better.

For rifles: .220 Swift, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts, 6.5X55, .270 Winchester, 7X57, .280 Remington, .300 Savage, .32-20, .38-55, .405 WCF. I'm even sensing that the grand old .30-06 is teetering off its perch in recent years in favor of a distinctly lesser though admittedly still effective round, the .308. All these are excellent, useful cartridges that well accomplish shooting chores. So much of what we have these days is nothing more than a reformed "bottle" containing the propellant charge, a "differently dimensioned" cartridge case that does nothing special and produces the same amount of cartridge performance as the oldies can and they were here first!

But, we must have short actions you see and it must be able to feed in a semi-automatic. And, we must have compact, short-barreled rifles. Standard weight, ballistics improving longer barrels are so yesterday.

For handguns: revolver cartridges generally are languishing. The traditional straight walled magnum revolver cartridges, the mighty triumvirate of yesteryear, the .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum aren't nearly as popular with the masses as they were when I was young. For crying out loud, the .38 Special languishes these days except for application in sniveling snubs! The .32-20 is a uniquely appealing cartridge, offering good handgun performance and endless small game, plinking, and handloading entertainment as a rifle cartridge, even as an economical stand in for the .22 Long Rifle with the right loads. Instead, we reinvent the wheel with .32 H&R Magnum, and .327 Federal magnum.

In automatics, the .38 Super sputters into life for a few seasons of popularity on occasion, but has taken a back seat to the wretched 9mm Luger of late. We touted the .40 S&W to the high heavens for some years after its introduction then turned on it and denigrated it into the ground in recent times.

Handguns too, suffer from "less is more." Shooters gravitate to 9mm or even this sniveling .30-whatever-it-is and want handguns to be ever smaller, ever lighter than last year's models.

Handloading is less popular among the unwashed masses today, less accessible too with a dearth of components available, but then so is factory ammunition at present. Few want to study their chosen cartridge and experimentally load for it to maximize its use. They'd rather just buy guns chambered for the latest and greatest cartridge that claims some sort of unique performance benefit.

Then there's the problem of "all semi-automatic, all the time." For so many, if it's not semi-automatic, whether rifle or handgun, then it's not worthy of consideration. Gotta have lots'a bullets.

There's a whole 'nother world of good shooting to be had outside of plastic pistolas and AR 15s, the 9mm Luger and the .223.

Just a feeble morning bleat from an admitted fogy.

Actually we could have stopped with the 30-40 Krag, it had all the energy needed for hunting and SD use.

It was the only time that "Over Kill" came to my mind when, back in the 70's,
I shot a little Black tail buck in California, that probably only went 140 pounds, with the 180 gr RN ammo.

Just depends if you need a bowling ball or a Ball bearing, for the job at hand.

I thought about putting the .30-40 on the list. Nothing alive and walking could tell the difference between it and .308 if fairly struck. The .30-40 produces quite pleasing velocities with lighter weight .30 caliber bullets and good ol' 220 grain round nose give it a unique flavor of stomp on big game. I've used it a bit.

I guess it would depend on what the purpose of something new would be.

I get the OP's point in that it seems that new cartridges are being developed to let the marketing guys have something different and new to sell that offers some small gains, and not a giant leap in performance.

I would consider the 30 SC to be an example of this. As a replacement for 9x19 all it really offers is 2-3 more rounds in something that already holds 12-13, really not a good enough reason for me to adopt it. Although I do see some potential for 30 SC if they marketed it for pocket pistols, to replace 380 or 32 ACP in a Ruger LCP or Beretta Tomcat. It could potentially get the people that are currently passing on the guns because they feel the smaller rounds are under powered for self defense to start looking at them, in the same way the slightly larger LC9 did when Ruger introduced it.

As others have said, "need" has little to do with it.

As others have said change and innovation keep the industry moving and the money flowing.

A lot can be done with a good 30-06. That was true fifty years ago and is still true today.

But part of the fun is seeing what the industry comes up with next.

that's exactly what I inherited from my father and grandfather, plus dad's JC Higgins 9 shot (High Standard) .22 LR revolver, and his JC Higgins/High Standard Flight King 20 12 gauge.

They brought home a LOT of game and birds with those.

30 Super Carry? 115 gr. Gold Dot at 1150 fps. Higher magazine capacity than 9mm. "New and improved" semi-auto cartridge seems to fit the 25-32 "hole". Some may like it, some may get one just because it's new...

Or 7.63x25 Mauser, 7.62x25 Tokerev?

I don’t care about the latest and greatest cartridge they are pushing. What frosts me is they can’t seem to keep up with demand for many of the classics. Not even just brass.
How much profit do they need to run, 35 Rem, 32 Win, 300Sav just to mention a few. Cartridges like 25/20, 32/20, 38/55 are almost impossible to get. They don’t want inventory, they want sales off the end of assembly line. That computer that was suppose to give buyers many more choices is a lie. Computer says they can sell all the 5.56 they cam squeeze out, they arent going to shut down line to make something of less demand.
It’s a sellers market of supply & price.

We are spoiled in today's America. Years ago most people had a shotgun, a rifle and maybe a pistol and it did everything they needed.

Today we could all really still do the same thing but what fun would that be? I do enjoy wringing out a new caliber, but in the end most don't really do anything that much better than the others.

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Plastic has no soul

I always like to see a new cartridge. I don't like most of what I see, but, I am never going to see something that I like if they don't keep bringing out new cartridges.

What I get a chuckle out of is that everything that is old becomes new again. If you take hard look at many cartridges that have come out in the last few years and labelled the latest and greatest whiz bang, you will probably find something ballistically identical, and pretty much the same round somewhere in the past. And often, those rounds never made much of a splash in their time. An example is the 6.5 x55 Swede. It has been around and available in this country since probably 1898 when it was invented. No one really seemed to care much about it. Enter the 6.5 Creedmoor which is essentially the same round. The shooting world has gone nuts over it. Go figure.

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NRA Life Member

I have always felt that if you can’t kill it with a. 30/06, you probably shouldn’t be shooting at it in the first place. Same with handgun cartridges. We have enough now. Having said that, it’s fun to play with new toys now and then, and as someone pointed out above, it’s their money.

I will go on record and say we don't need any more new cartridges but if the powers want to make new ones that's OK. I draw the line at being asked to believe all the hype that goes along with each new trinket.
Some of the stuff they put out with each new introduction has one asking if a ballistic miracle has occurred.

Long throat your 7 Rem Mag and ditch the S&H!

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Good shooting.

No Christmas card for you!

innovate or die.
Plane, simple business practice.

If you don't want to buy, don't.
If you want to try the latest Bleeding-Edge do-hickey, good on ya.


Do we really need a tweeked version of the car we bought a couple years ago? Same philosophy.

What city? I'm in Jeff City.

Nothing wrong with the Sharpe & Hart; it's a little more efficient than the Remington cartridge. The 7x61 will do the same as the much later 7mm RM and with a few grains less powder.

Wildcatting was (is?) a great way to experiment and find new utility with what were once abundant supplies of surplus arms and ammo.
For example, Elwood Epps of Orillia, Ontario, Canada developed a whole line of improved cartridges on the 303 British case, all intended for use in converted Lee-Enfield and P14 surplus rifles. They were very popular. The cartridges were as small as .25 caliber and went up to something like a .35 caliber. Each one was intended to have hunting applications for the varied big game in Canada.
All the better that the rifles could be custom fitted with nice stocks, etc. for less money than a new Winchester or Remington. American (or all imported) firearms were always pricey in Canada.
That's a little bit of a digression from the OP, but sometimes new cartridges can be a great way of taking advantage of existing resources.

300 Blackout (aka 300 Whisper) was/is a great way to utilize abundant supplies of 5.56 brass. My recollection is that JD Jones developed a whole line of "Whisper" cartridges. But, only the .300 seems to have taken off.

Ultimately, "natural selection" determines the winner and losers (with perhaps a bit of circus hype) in the cartridge market.
Funny thing...sometimes a plethora of new stuff leads to a renaissance or rediscovery of old stuff. I believe somebody mentioned 6.5 Mauser already...

You mean "The Capitol"...?

Cheers!

P.S. And just how many of the latest college graduating class would miss the Capitol of MO on the 100-point "Name (& locate on the US map) the State and its State Capitol Test"...?

Old school vs new school.

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