Well, I know "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but... Mayhaps, if versitility=perfection, is it in the eye of a reloader?

In searching for a more appropriate powder for 223/5.56s in the lighter weight bullets I came to realize that there was published load data for all my rifle calibers (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 300 Blackout) for IMR 4064. And IMR 4895 was running a close 2nd.

Perhaps not the ULTIMATE, but I get more than acceptable results in everything from 223 through 270 Winchester, 7x57, 30-30 & 308. There's even data for my friends' 30-06 & 300 Win Mag.

Your thoughts, please?

Cheers!

P.S. The 223/5.56 powder I found was Vihta Vuori N130, BTW. Not too shabby for 30-30 or the lighter weight bullets in 308, either.

I like H-4895. It can be used in a huge variety of rifle cartridges, and works well for reduced loads as well. It is sort of the "Unique" of rifle powders.

Larry

And it’s temperature insensitive.

Big fan of both for the same reasons listed above. H4895 has been a staple at my bench from the beginning. It was only in the last 15 years or so that I’ve truly come to appreciate the versatility of IMR4064.

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GOA
USA Shooting Supporter

A good centerfire rifle powder is IMR 3031 (Red Can). This unsung powder is what Remington used to shoot the targets that came from their custom shop, including every 40x. (this includes 22 BR and 6PPC rifles!) I have heard that the long-standing World Record Bench Rest Group 222 Remington load was with 3031!

It is a pain to meter, especially for smaller cases, but the accuracy is the reward for your patience! I don't even try a powder drop any more, I just weigh each load! On a good scale 5 granules of powder weigh about 1/10 grain, I can steer a charge into 1/50 gr consistency!

Also is a great powder for 1886/1895 loads in 45-70! I use a 400 gr Gas Check RN bullet at 2200 fps in my Marlin Guide Gun Load (from Lyman #45)

It is not an exact replacement for Cordite, but darn close. In main battle rifles of both World Wars, If you have a Eley Cordite load, the same weight of 3031 will be extremely close to (and just below) military specs. In medium and large bore African rifles 3031 is a great place to start a load work up 1:1! My 450 3 1/4 NE uses 70 grains of Cordite and 71 grains of 3031 in my Westly-Richards double rifle. (load from Cartridges of the World #3)

Ivan

It always struck me as unexpected somehow that both of these are in the usual short lists for both my 220 Swift and 45-70s - quite a range. Now that prices and supply are problems I keep a list of likely powders for most of my cartridges and try to do the mental calculus to figure when to not use powder A for cartridge Y because it is all I have left that is suitable for cartridge Z and I can still use powder B for Y 🤔

Dean in Arkansas

Propellants in the range from 3031 to 4064 are very versatile for satisfactory use with virtually all rifle calibers and bullet weights. Back in the old days, Hercules made a propellant called Hi-Vel #2 which was in that range. Many reloaders considered it as their “Do-All Go-To” rifle propellant and used only it for loading most everything. Much as Hercules Unique was seen as being the universal all purpose handgun caliber propellant. Things were much simpler then when all you needed was a few cans of HV#2 and Unique.

+ 1 on H4895 . Works great in milspec bolt / gas guns including 556 . I use it with cast in 1903's & Swedes .

If I remember correctly, IMR4064 was the powder Federal used to load it's Gold Medal Match .308 ammo. I actually found my M1A accuracy improved a bit when I handloaded match ammo with 4064 rather than the old standby 4895. The one downside is that the 4064 grains are a little larger than those of many other powders so they don't flow as smoothly through a powder measure.

I am all-in on H4895 as a Jack of All Trades, though for my .270 Win I prefer H4831.

I added a burn chart that shows relative burn rates for many powders.

Attached Files

Burn Rate Chart (New).pdf (687.2 KB, 26 views)

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No good deed goes unpunished.

When you look a a loading manual there isn't much you can't load with either 4895.

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Front sight and squeeze

Regarding H4895... I agree with the comments about it's versatility. Many these days seem to prefer Varget over H4895 much of the time. I suspect many of the Varget users have never worked with H4895 but have read on the Internet where Varget is the preferred powder for many cartridges and bullet weights.

Varget is an excellent powder for many uses and I've found at least one instance where it actually provides slightly better accuracy than H4895. Generally, however, I've found H4895 to be somewhat more versatile than Varget and I've seen better overall accuracy with H4895.

Either H4895 or IMR 4895 gets it done in .223 through 45/70 for me.

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Keep your powder dry.

my 22-250 to 30-06 loads all do well with 4064 and 4895 powders.

I have yet to buy the H4895, that is designed for light target loads that
can be a lot slower than the IMR brand powders.

My meat loads in my 270 are all with IMR4064, that are reduced loads and shoot under 1" at 100 yards,
that have very little blood hemorrhaging and meat loss, if you miss the shoulder bone.

My 30-06 meat load is a 180 gr SPBT that is at 2300fps and has 75% of the factory recoil.

Both powders can make loads designed for your type of shooting needs.

During WWII, IMR 4895 was the standard propellant used for loading military .30-‘06 cartridges. But I think it went by a different ID number. Many years ago when I was working at the U.S. Naval Propellant Plant in Indian Head MD, there were hundreds of containers of it in storage magazines. They were big square metal cans that held, I think, about 100 pounds each. I am not sure why they were there.

If I could have only 1, it would be a toss up between IMR 4895 or 4064. 4064 has been my go to . 30-06 accuracy powder since the mid 80s in my bolt gun. 4895 is almost as good(much better than all the accuracy I need) plus it is a standard for the Garand. It's shorter kernels meter better in a progressive. That said, 4064 is well within the accepted burn rate for a Garand, and honestly it meters close enough for all but max charges, which you really shouldn't be cranking out progressively, at least in my opinion.

I like IMR 4350 does everything I need it to do from 243 to 30-06

As a newby just starting to load my first caliber - 30-06 - the dealer sold me some dies, a can of powder and a box of bullets. The powder was 3031. I found that it worked great.

51 years later, after having accumulated a dozen more calibers, I have yet to find a cartridge that it didn't work perfectly for me. It's the only rifle powder I use.

Now, my rifles are all used for informal target shooting up to 100 yards, if that makes any difference.

You don't hear much about 3031, 4064 or the 4895s these days. All the "new stuff" - Nosler cartridges, WSMs, 6.5 Everything - has to be loaded with new powders according to the ex-spurts. That's fine by me. I'll use the H4895 they leave behind in my .280, .45-70 and especially my .35 Whelen. It even works in my wife's 6.5 (Arisaka). Old powders in old cartridges for an old...guy.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

I don't have a .223 but do have a Remington 700 in .222. Even though now discontinued, I was able to obtain several pounds of IMR 4320. Can produce a one gagged hole group at 100 yards off the bench with a 12X power scope if I do my part.

And, it is AVAILABLE on Hodgdons!

There are, undoubtedly, some excellent newer powders out there. I've tried a few of them. I do like ball powders for ease of metering for . 223 loads, especially. But I keep a supply of H-4895 on hand, and could do it all with that if need be. For top-drawer performance, H-4350 is really good in my 6.5 Rem. mags, and in . 30-06. But 4895 would do fine. And I really like Reloader 15 in . 308. But 4895 would do fine. probably not the best choice in my 7 mag, but I could make do if need be.

Lots of interesting ideas on what power is the best for a lot of loaders,

I will also add in my .224 and .308 dia. bullets, that I also have had very good results
with H-380, W-748 and IMR 4320 (short grain) that meter well and have given me
some really great target groups, over the years.

When you shoot so many different bullet weights and at starting to maximum pressure loads
it is very hard to find just one powder that makes every rifle happy.

I always wanted to try 3031 as a go to and penny pincher powder but never got around to trying it.

Back in the 70's I had way too many irons in the fire, to just go shooting or hunting.
There was Golf, Bowling, skiing instructor, water skiing, motorcycles and fishing, did I mention that I was single?

IMR 3031 was the very first propellant I used when I started rifle reloading in the early 1960s. The only CF rifles I owned then were a DCM M1903A3 and a Swedish M94 Carbine. If one loads cast lead rifle bullets, somewhat faster propellants, such as 4227 and 2400, are preferable.

FWIW- Rem . 40XB "Factory Loads" in 3 of mine were: 4895 in a .223 and a 6x47, 3031 in a Swift.

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Good shooting.

I suppose equivalency depends on what flavor of Cordite. Just as with more modern nitro smokeless powders, there were different types of Cordites suited for different applications. Somewhere I have an article that discusses them, but I don’t remember where. Possibly it was in one of the earlier editions of the Handoader’s Digest. I’ll see if I can find it.

If this is about reloading then it's about finding the powder that our barrel, cartridge, and specific bullet likes.
4895 has for years been the got to powder for starting loads in many cartridges. Then experimentation around accuracy, velocity and bullet performance reveals what powder/load works best.

I only have 4-5 powders for the 4-5 cartridges I shoot in hunting and "military" style rifles so accuracy at 300 yards within 5 inches (hand span) is sufficient with aperture sights at my age, 75!

I only loaded in the low to mid range, .223 to .308. Varget was my favorite by far for the accuracy. Short stick powder, and metered pretty well, but I always trickled in for absolute consistency.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

VARGET works for ME

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V/r,
Markham

In 1961, a Lee Loader in .30-30 and a paper sack with half a pound of DuPont's IMR 4895 was the start for me. For decades it was DuPont powders in rifles, Hercules in handguns and Olin in shotguns.

IMR 4895 will give you a usable load in a bunch of rifle cartridges and a great load in some.

I have used both flavors of 4895, with great success in my 3006 and 308 service rifles, and don't plan to change.
Also have enjoyed good accuracy with 3031, 4831, 4064, and 4350, and even 4320.

Depends on what cartridge I am loading for, but they all have their place.

I have shot quite a bit of military surplus 4831 that is older than I am, by a few years. I am just about out of it, but it has worked great in my 6 mm Remington, and in my 7 x 57 Mauser.

I never warmed up to the modern stuff, but I am sure it is great, and maybe even better, than the old stand by's, but I will stick to what I know.

I have a buddy that swears by Vihtavuori powders, and I am sure that they are great, but cost they more than I am willing to pay.
He gets more velocity out of his loads than I do, and I think its probably due to these powders.
I never get my best accuracy at the top, anyway, so I dont push things.
To each his own I suppose.

We have far more powders available today than anyone really has a use for but that's modern marketing and many handloaders seem to equate "new" with "better". That's often not the situation. Since the mid-'60s, I've tried many new powders; sometimes there was a marked advantage (usually from an accuracy perspective) over what I had been using. Well more than half the time, however, the new powder offered nothing over the old, or results were inferior.

Some mourn the loss of a favorite powder when production ceases. With some serious load development trying one or several of the duplicative powders we have available today, I've only seen one instance where a another powder won't work just as well - and that's just for the time being; I probably haven't done sufficient work.

As long as various burn rates were well represented, we could easily do fine with one-third to one-half fewer powders than we presently have.

It is nice to have lots of powders available, since many of use like
stick while others like ball powder for rifle loading.

In pistol you have Flake, ball & stick powders to try your hand at,
which can really make a new loaded "crazy" with all the different data and pressures out there
to read up on and put together a safe load.

I did notice the other day when loading some 270 loads, that there was a different "Aroma" coming out of the one pound cans, than when I open a can, used for small arms.

It is all fun .............
and it has been a while since I have heard small shot pellets, roll across my loading table
and bounce on the floor !!

More ammo.

I 4064 for calibers from .225 winchester, through my 30-06, and .300 savage. Reminds me, I've got some loading to do...

For .223, There are powders my rifles like better, namely Benchmark and 8208xbr.

Blessings

Powder choice can be dependent on the bullet used. I have a home built AR-15 with a Gibbz Arms side charging upper and a 20 inch Shilen 1:8 barrel. With a 68 grain Hornady BTHP loaded with Varget it will shoot under 3/10 MOA, BTW, that is 5 rounds into a hole roughly 1/2 inch in diameter at 100 yards. The same rifle with a round featuring a 60 grain Nosler Ballistic tip loaded with Varget will group around 2 inches at 100 yards. Not nearly as good as one would expect. However load that exact same bullet with CFE223 and groups come in at under 1/2 inch. BTW I load all of my .223 loads to 2800 fps because I see no benefit from wearing out a precision barrel prematurely with 3300 fps "burners" and accuracy is better at 2800 fps.

IMO if you want an all around powder for the .223 caliber I would suggest that CFE223 is a very good choice. While Varget produces the best accuracy with that 68 grain BTHP I have tested this bullet with CFE223 and it will produce consistent groups at 4/10 MOA. In addition CFE223 meters wonderfully so it's a throw and go powder for good accurate plinkers. Varget requires tricking up every single charge.

PS; that CFE bit really does work on cutting down on Copper Fouling and it's proven to be a real time saver when having to clean that Shilen barrel. The only time I shoot the Varget is for a Match, the rest of the time the powder used is CFE223.

I have to agree with save the good powder and bullets for the serious games
and shoot the other powders and bullets for practice or for the other family members, that want to join in.

I've been a IMR 4064 for years. Very universal. I've got 12#. IMR 4895 would be my 2nd favorite. I don't shoot Magnum cartridges either. I shoot '06, .243 and .223. Its a pain to meter. That's why I spent the money on a RCBS auto measure! Tap in what you want ; measures your load perfectly every time. I prefer stick powder. Burns clean and I've found loads that work beautifully for every cartridge I've mentioned. Packs a .223 case FULL with no signs of pressure. But I shoot heavy bullets in .223. Can't find a Bad load in '06 or .243 using any bullet weight.
Does not give good case fill in '06 or .243 lots of space left but accuracy is always there.

Which powder do you use in the '06? Other than for my M1 Garand ammo I use 4350 for the 30-06. (H4895 for the M1)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

IMR 4064 exclusively. Never owned a Garand, unfortunately. But 4064 falls nicely in the pressure curve for a Garand gas system

If you have a few bolt actions;

I have found the the old slow IMR 4350 works with loads from my
22-250's up to the large 30-06 case, from light target loads all the way
to factory loads, or even more, with good accuracy.

I have two IMR 4895 30-06 test loads to test out with 150 and 180 weight bullets
that are light target loads or maybe hunting loads c/o "Minimum" meat waste
if they meet the accuracy and fps needed in my testings.

It is very hard to slow down a .30 Cal. , high BC boat tail bullet, into the 2500fps area
and I might need a poor BC flat base spitzer 150 gr like the Rem Core-Lokt
to use, if nothing pans out for me.

Just trying to get the BIG 30-06 down to 30-30 & Krag energy, if possible.

I will post what happens, when finished.

Yeah cup and core bullets in the 180gr range work real well when not pushed hard. Thats what I love about IMR 4064, you can down load it and still get great results. IMR 4895 is a great powder too.

Hold on here, one powder for everything? 😳 I can’t do that.
I use 5 different powders for 8 different rifle cartridge’s. Admittedly I can use IMR4350 for most of the middle bore’s but in the .22 Hornet and .223/5.56 that would not work to well.
In today’s component shortage problems I try and keep useful powders around that I can load in maybe a few cartridge’s. The Hornet is one trick pony, but the other ones can load different powder. But at least in my rifles accuracy is where you find it.
Now in handgun powders Unique is one very versatile powder. 😎

I would find it extremely difficult to use only one powder for loading rifle cartridges too. I guess if I had to H4895 would be the one. Right now I think I use one or more different powders for each rifle cartridge I now load.

Handgun powders are another thing. I want 3 powders, W231/HP-38, W540/HS-6 and W296/H110.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

These days I'm using BL-C(2) or CFE223 for 223 since it was the only thing I could find.

Pre-pandemic I was using IMR 4198 as the "universal" powder for 223, 7.62x39, and reduced loads in 308 and 30-06.

Being what it is you really have to trickle it for any consistency, but an auto charger solves that problem.

I hate to say it but;

If you have rifles that go from a .22 dia. with 40 gr pills all the way to
a .30 Caliber that swallows a 220 gr bullet or larger..............

If you only have just ONE can of brand "X" powder for all your target and factory Dup. loads

you are going to be one very sorry camper.

It is a nice "Idea" but it AIN'T going to happen.