I am looking to see if anyone here understands why brass deposit form evenly spaced vertical line around the end of a Dillion powder funnel.

background: I have been using a Dillon SDB for a few months now. I was loading 45 ACP using new brass and I started to feel substantial resistance on the upstroke. I tracked it down to stage 2. I called Dillon and they explained that new brass or overly cleaned brass will leave deposits on the funnel and there is also galling that occurs. They suggested polishing the end of the funnel and using case lube. I am working on those things. I did some Google searching and I am not the first person to run into this. Seems to be a pretty well known problem.

But I have a specific question here. Does anyone understand why the brass deposits form evenly spaced vertical lines? Makes me think the machining process somehow leaves ridges around the part.

Used brass that has been cleaned without stainless steel pins or "Tarnish Remover", leave a fouling residue inside the case, that residue works like a lubricant when flaring the case mouths.

You can actually load cases that have never been cleaned! So you can have a bowl of cases that are still dirty inside to mix in with the squeaky-clean cases.

Also you may need to reduce the amount of case mouth flair to the minimum. this lessons the contact surface, and allows more new brass between carboned brass.

I use a 550 so I have the same powder system, this doesn't happen with corncob or walnut media, just the wet stainless steel pins.

Ivan

The brass line is the result of brass being transferred to the funnel due to friction.

As stated above some "lubrication" will prevent an reduce the ring but the ring poses no issue with reloading.

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Ruggy

I understand all this now. I am only looking for an explanation for the vertical lines. Trying to get understand why the deposits are so regular and not random. Seems to suggest a machines ng issue with the funnel. In

It very well may be ridges on the funnel. If it is something you are comfortable doing, you can remove the funnel and polish the end to a mirror like finish.

Start with wet automotive sand paper. 400 - 600 grit then work it up to 1000 grit. Keep the paper wet. After wet sanding, move to some flitz on a rag, then finish off with mothers. If you have a large enough drill chuck to hold the funnel, that can speed things up but move slowly.

seriously it is fairly simple. once a case leaves even a very little residue of brassor anything else...it will continue to build in the same area. Polish all you want...eventually the same thing will happen when you flare the end of the cases so you can seat a bullet. The bit of soot on fired cases act as a lubricant so it takes longer. Tumble brass in corncob with a bit of auto wax or even case lube and it will take longer to get the build up. Even though I use carbide dies on handgun cases...I still lightly use spray lube. And yep...I get the same striations on the funnel. Pull the funnel every 1000 rounds or so and polish the funnel with 4 ought steel wool...put it back in

I tumble my brass with corn cob media, and a little "brightener" and I have never had any problem. A little "residue" in the case actually is beneficial. Been doing it this way for nearly 40 years now.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I use a 50/50 mix of corn cob and crushed walnut shells which works well for me. The shells remove the tougher stuff and the corn cob seems to shine it up nicely.

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SWCA #3437

Personally, I wet tumble and lube handgun brass when using the Dillon. A lot of people would turn up their noses at the thought of lubing straight walled handgun brass but I believe it saves a lot of trouble.

I have found a little Imperial Sizing Wax on every tenth case or so of 9mm and 45 ACP really helps when sizing those cases. Needed? No, but like said above, it saves trouble.

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SWCA #3437

The wet clean with stainless pins just get them too clean. Just tumble them a few hours in corn cob or walnut and your problem will go away. Been loading on Dillon’s since the 1980s and the only ones I have had stick on the powder funnel/expander have been the wet tumbled. The new starline brass has not been a problem for some reason. Never a problem with tumbled brass. That little bit of carbon in the case is great I usually hit the cases with some hornady one shot on all my handgun calibers(only on the outside of the case)

My Dillon 9mm powder funnel did the same thing and I replaced it with one from Mr Bulletfeeder. My funnel was actually scored and the scratches filled up with brass transfer from the cases. The filled scratches would later come loose and embed themselves in the crimp die, scoring the cases on the outside.

I have 3 Square deals, first one I bought so long ago I paid $138.00 and I've never run into this problem.
SWCA 892

Way back in the day (1980s) I messed around with wet cleaning and wet tumbling - and went back to dry tumbling with walnut or corn cob media.

But wet tumbling and the hand loader version of obsessive compulsive disorder is the current fad. As such, old lessons will end up being relearned. For most cartridges the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze.

You know...for some reason I have to agree...not worth the squeeze. But then again I have a lot o 38 sp brass I am going to load...at least 1000 are older Peters Brand. I even have boxes for most of 'em. I definitely want them to look as new. They are once fired. With 357 I can make the ones I want to shine like new if they are my high end loads. And my rifle ammo needs so much trimming blah blah blah I night as well make 'em look new. I've got about 500 each of 22 Hornet and 222 Rem and they look new...much handgun brass gets processed through a vibrating tumbler and gets loaded then after 3 or so loads gets made shiney again

Well still no actual explanation why the deposits are vertical. But I have followed Dillon's advice and my SDB is running so much smoother now.

Polish the funnel
Lube the brass

I like to try different things because I am approaching this as a hobby. So far for lube, I have tried DIY 10% Lanolin in HEET gas treatment (red bottle) and Hornady One Shot Spray. They both seemed to work about the same. Zero hang-ups but still a small amount of brass transfer after 100 rounds. I also have some of Dillon's newer synthetic lube which I will try next.

I found one thing with making the DIY stuff. Ultimate Reloading has a video showing the making of DIY Lanolin lube. He shows using 99% Isopropyl Alcohol. I tried that and I found it didn't easily dissolve the Lanolin. You end up with more of a suspension that settles out after a while. I saw a lot of references in forums to using red bottle HEET which is easily obtained at any automotive store. I got mine at Auto Zone for like 3 buck a bottle. That stuff is also 99% IPA but according to its SDS, it contains 1% proprietary something. It readily dissolves the Lanolin for an actual solution. I am guessing its Ether which is listed as a solvent for Lanolin. In any event, it's easy to get and works well.

Polishing is easier said than done. Folks throw around a lot of product names. But all of the retail metal polishes have undisclosed grit size. Or you have at least have to dig to find them. I never tried to polish steel before so it was a new thing for me. I had polished epoxy surfboards before but they polish like car paint so you can use car paint products. Steel needs different products.

I had a tube of Blue Magic which was actually suggested here in another thread to remove carbon from a revolver cylinder. I bought it for that but never used it. With some digging, it turns out that Blue Magic has 400 grit which about 40 microns. That sounded course but with the right pad, it gives a pretty much mirror polish.

Also widely mentioned is Flitz. With some digging, it turns out that Flitz has 4000 grit or about 5 micros. So one approach would be to polish first with Blue Magic and then with Flitz.

With things like polishing, I would prefer to use technically specified products where the grit size is clearly stated. McMaster has such products in the form of hard bars. They suggest a two step process. First with 40 micron and then a "coloring" polish with 5 down to as small as 1 micron. So that is basically the same as Blue magic followed by Flitz. I ordered some of their compounds and will be trying them as time permits.

I happen to have a stereo microscope so as I polish I can check what is actually going on.

I do understand that dry tumbling may not have as much of this issue but that may not help with new brass which is what I am now using.

Well, this post was quite helpful. I purchased some wet tumbled 38 special brass a while back. I have been loading up a lot of 38 specials with that brass and have been seeing lots of brass powder on my press. Was wondering the cause, and I do believe it because the brass is too clean. I think I am going to tumble them in my corn cob media with some nu-finish and see if that takes care of the problem.

Rosewood

Stainless pin wet cleaning: I've posted about it before, but perhaps you'll all allow me to repeat myself, repeat myself, repeat myself . . . .

I use this method for range brass picked up in plate matches. Unknown heritage and often with sand or grit from the range. This cleaning method is perfect for this use. However as many say, the cases get "squeeky clean." They drag on my Dillon's expander leaving the brass marks described above. Sizing takes more effort even with carbide dies. Primers are tougher to seat. Yep, IMNHO, they get too clean with this cleaning method.

One trick is to add car wash n' wax to the cleaning soup. Leaves a film of wax on the cases. I tried Hornady One Shot lube on the cleaned cases, but it is slippery enough that I had troubles with bullet setback. A simple push on the case's base with the bullet against my bench easily moved the bullet in. Not good in a 9mm pistol.

I will try the lanolin/alcohol (or heet) approach. Although I've heard about it for years, I never did give it a go. A buddy uses this method successfully. I have a sprayer, lanolin and alcohol. Only feeble excuses have prevented me from trying it.

I clean in a vibratory tumbler w either lizard bedding (walnut) or corncob w a cap of cheap car polish w bentonite in it, then dump a few hundred cases in a quart ziplock bag and spritz 2 spritzes of Dillon case lube or Isopropanol w 5% lanolin on the cases and never had a problem in decades

This is my method with One-Shot:
I take a large ziplock bag and spray the inside with One-Shot, maybe a 2-3 second burst. Then I fill the bag about halfway or so with cases. I haven't counted but it's several hundred. I zip up the bag so that it is full if air, like a balloon. Then I shake vigorously like I am seasoning fried chicken, then pour it out one layer deep on a paper towel and let it air dry. With this method I get just a tiny bit inside the case mouths and primer pockets. Enough for easy flaring and seating, not enough for things to come loose.

I have been loading new brass recently but my wet cleaning method has been using auto wash and wax. I tried this on some new brass and ran a few through my SDB after cleaning the funnel. I had brass build up and resistance build up fairly quickly. I was using Turtle Wax Zip. It just didn't seem to leave enough wax on the brass. Maybe you have a different product that works better. The actual case lubes do work well but if they cause other problems, then that needs to be addressed. Maybe your crimp needs to set tighter if the bullets move too easily.

When lubing cases for actual production, I put the cases mouth up in a case tray. I followed Hornady's instructions and sprayed at a 45degree angle and from all fours sides so lube got on the inside and outside. Dillon does recommend wiping the outside or dry tumbling after the rounds are done. They also claim that neither Lanolin, their synthetic lube, or One Shot affect powder burn in any way.

Usually the vertical lines are caused by the swaging die
when the brass is made. Many times the die is worn.
That wear is transferred to the shell case as a thickening
of the case wall. When you run the sized case up the
powder funnel, that "thick" part abrades off and you see
a vertical line on the funnel.

As has been stated, this "is what it is". You could minimize
this by polishing the inside of each case. Precision shooters
use neck turning dies to minimize the thick parts of the
necks on their rifle brass which minimizes runout and helps
increase accuracy. Same idea but doing it on the outside
vs inside of the shell case. I don't worry about it but know
the OCD cool kids do. I just make sure my brass is clean
so it doesn't score my reloading dies.

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Many years ago when I started reloading revolver rounds(44mag) I used the standard reaming tool on the cases. Just a quick turn of the case and I never had any problems with the caliber. Only one I ever had any problem with has been the 38/357 rounds. I even used a file trim die on 41 44 45 Colt cases so that is why I reamed the cases. Even back then I found Winchester cases in those calibers to not be consistent. 38/357 was just too much bother to do the trim/ream. I never loaded much heavy loads in the smaller caliber to need to ream. I started loading pistol rounds using hand tools...mostly Tong tools. The file trim die for 44 was a RCBS that you just held and filed. Still got that sucker too.

Thanks. This is very good explanation.

I tried reaming some cases and that alone was not enough. It may be that your flaring die is different than the one on an SDB. The Dillon powder funnels have an extended neck below the flaring section. It is a rather tight fit on the case ID. It is the neck where the deposits build up, not on the flare. I assume Dillon's design is to round the ID after sizing. It also has the effect of delivering the powder below where the bullet goes for the most part. You can see the logic of this when folks claim they don't like lube because powder sticks near the mouth. With the Dillon design that issue is minimized. I was watching for this when I started using lube last week.

How would this result in evenly spaced vertical lines? In my experience, it builds up over time. Each ridged case would have to be precisely lined up on the expander funnel when processed. I don't see how that can happen as each case is expanded. Perhaps I'm missing something . . . .

You aren't missing anything. The build up is from metal to metal contact. Even though the funnel is harder than the case brass is still abrasive... Rubs off...and continues to do so round after round. Do an experiment..clean the funnel take the wet tumbled brass and run it in a dry tumbler with corn cob media with polish in it...just a 1/2 hour or 45 mins. I think you will find most of the buildup on the funnel won't happen as it has been. I do it..in fact that's all I use corn cob media for to be honest. I typically use lizard litter for most dry tumbling... Cheap but gets blackened pretty quickly

Just happened to remember... Way back when I started shotshell reloading the wad fingers on the Mec loaders were brass yeah I'm old but I remember the metal powder/shot drop tube got buildups on it all the time. Left streaks on it. Wore the wad fingers out fairly quickly
.

I apply a light daub of case lube to the powder funnel, every 25 to 50, rounds when it seems to stiffen on the backside of the stroke. It's mostly a problem with new brass. With a semi-auto pistol, there doesn't seem to be much old brass.

Try a new powder funnel from Dillon . Never had that problem with the 10 or so I have even with new brass

Chuck it up in a drill press and polish it. That's what I do for mine.

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Yeah, I have three powder funnels. I was mostly working with my 45ACP one but today I looked at my 9mm and 357Mag powder funnels. Hate to say it but the finish on then as they come from Dillon isn't that great. OK, I do have a stereo microscope to look at these things but the parts have very obvious machining grooves. I guess it's all about cost but if you ask Dillon about this problem, they tell you to polish the ends. If this part needs to be polished to function normally, then maybe Dillon should supply them polished.

I am getting better at this polishing business but I have had to buy a fair amount of stuff. The machining grooves need to be removed with sandpaper. Then one can polish them.

The focus has been on Dillon powder funnels. I've also seen this on some of the expander plugs on some of my other brand die sets. Not to implicate RCBS, but that what most of mine are. It shows up on 44 Special and 45 ACP plugs.

I note there circumferential machining ridges on the plugs most affected. One can easily feel the brass ridges as they develop. I remove the brass ridges with steel wool and Hoppe's only to have them re-appear. I have not polished the affected expander plugs.

As for the mechanism, I can only guess that the machining marks scrape off brass and it migrates to a brass ridge. The ridge itself can't scrape off more brass, but the clear "furrows" can because they're bare steel. The debris from the scraped off areas lands on the ridges where is can't be scraped off. This causes the increasing buildup. Again, this is mere guesswork on my part.

Yes I am pretty sure I have felt the galling on my various manual dies. In fact, I posted a thread about it some time ago. I don't think anyone mentioned galling at that time but I have definitely felt resistance with cases coming out out my manual dies. I can't say which ones at the moment but no doubt its the same thing. They need polishing and lube also.

I think the bigger calibers (like 45ACP) are just more noticeable because there is more surface area involved.

I know I started this thread to see if there was a good physical explanation for why the deposit form equally spaced vertical line but at this point, I am more focused on the most efficient way to get them polished. I tried the compound bars yesterday and they are rather messy. You pretty much need to use a spinning tool (buffing wheel) to use the industrial polishing bars and the wheel tends to throw bits of the compound around. The retail polishing products in tubes like Blue Magic and Flitz, work fairly well if you spin the part and apply the polish with a stationary pad. The bar compound need a spinning tool to apply and I think its good to spin the part as well (double spinning). At this point I have a mini lathe and a drill press that can both spin the part. I have been using a Dremel to spin various polishing applicators (mostly foam type so far).

I polish stuff with my lathe using fine steel Wool with polshing compound. I used to use the old DuPont auto polish.. But haven't looked for it for years.When done I use a little wax on it too. Won't last long but still helps. Same thing happens to the expander plug on RCBS and other dies. Most of us don't notice on Single Stage presses

I got my microscope camera running. I think my setup is literally 10 years old but I found the CD with the software and it actually runs on my modern day computer. This photo is my 9mm funnel. It is so shiny, that it was difficult to light it. The bright oval is the reflection of an LED ring-light on the scope. The metal on the far right is what it looked like before polishing. With the light turned up like this, you can see the degree of scratches still remaining. It is a mirror finish but far from perfect.

I used this process. I spun the part in a drill press. I removed the machining marks with 400,600, and then 800 emery paper. Then I used Osborn compound bars: Black (400 micron), White(2mircon) and then Green (1micron). The micron grit sizes are from the McMaster Catalog. The companies that make these compounds do not post the grit sizes and there websites so the micron numbers are not verified yet. Emails asking for more detailed info have so far been unanswered. The compounds I applied with felt wheels on a Dremel. I tried Flitz after the Green compound and that seemed to be less shiny. That makes sense because folks online seem to thing Flitz is about 4 microns. I am trying to get an even finer compound. We'll see how that goes.

Just FYI, 400,600, 800 emery, followed by Blue Magic and then Flitz looks pretty good to the naked eye and probably just fine for actual use. The Blue magic and Flitz, I simply put on a microfiber pad and held that against the spinning funnel. The compounds are a lot messier because they tend to fling off the Dremel felt wheel.

Yes, I kind of got obsessive about this polishing business.

Attached Images

Dillon 9mm funnel polished #3.jpg (65.5 KB, 108 views)

I am assuming you guys have a chuck larger than 1/2"? These funnels won't fit in my drill press or mini lathe.

Rosewood

My lathes will handle 10 inch stock. Chuck a small felt wheel in your mini lathe. Polish with it

I use a combination of 90% isopropyl alcohol (it is actually a gasoline additive) and 10% pure lanolin. It mixes very well and stays in solution. I put it in a glass spray bottle. It works as well as Lyman spray on lube and is far, far less expensive.

I used yo polish small items with felt wheels on my Unimat lathe. made firing pins and small items with it too. Handy little tools. I have also made lube. Can be cheap...but just easier to get a bottle or can of spray lube. I use it on pistol brass and a can or bottle lasts a long time. I use Imperial Die wax on rifle stuff. BTW I have at least 3 bottles of Dillon spray lube and Hornady I got t yard/estate sales...for next to free...

Yes I ran into this issue right away as the funnels are like .550 dia. There are a range of solutions.

Uniquetek makes an adapter just for this issue. I bought one and have it on hand but have not tried yet. So I don't know how true it will spin the funnel or if the set screw will gouge the part.
https://uniquetek.com/product/T1758

My first idea was to find a chuck that would adapt down. This turned out to be harder than I thought. Most 5/8" chucks have taper shanks of one kind or another. Like a lot of things these days, I found something on Amazon.

I used this in my handheld Makita. It worked but had a fair amount of wobble. I complained to the maker and they sent me another one. I have not tried the new one it to see if it runs truer.

Ultimately, I bought myself a drill press. I've wanted one for a long time and this kicked me over the edge. I bought the WEN model that is very popular on Amazon and the clincher was that they also offer a chuck upgrade that is keyless and goes to 5/8". So this is my current setup:
and

The chuck has a JT33 taper so if you already have a drill press with a JT33 taper, you can just buy the chuck. However, getting your old JT33 chuck off may not be so easy. The right way to do it is with a pair of tapers like these:
Thankfully, my WEN press came without the stock, 1/2" chuck not mounted. So I just installed the bigger chuck from the start.

Finally, a lathe is a go way to go because I like the horizontal orientation of the part. The Proxxon mini-lathe chucks up to 2.5 inches (but is a bit pricey). The funnel doesn't go through the center-hole in the chuck but it spins very nicely with the amount it does grab. You could use the live center to hold the other end if you wanted to press harder.

yes HEET (red bottle)
https://www.autozone.com/fuel-and-en...2oz/136368_0_0

I have ways of polishing, just couldn't use my mill or press. I typically just polish with straight fine sand paper and or dremel with polishing wheel. Mill or press just gives you an even polish, takes the unsteady hand out of the equation.

Rosewood

My polishing obsession continues. I got a hold of some diamond polishing compound: 50,000 grit (.5 micron) and 100,000 grit (.25micron). $13 bucks each for a 5 gram syringe on Amazon. Both funnels in the photos I had already polished down to Osborn Green which is supposed to be 1micron. The lower funnel I polished for a about 1 minute each with the .5micron and then the .25micron. Both of these look very mirror-like to the naked eye but under the microscope you can see various degrees of scratching. Just about anything that looks like a scratch is gone when you get down to .25 micron. At .5 micron, I could still see scratches but they were much lighter than the upper funnel. I found the best way to see the surface defects was to put the funnels at a slight angle. If you leave them flat, you just see a reflection of the light source like in my previous post.

Attached Images

diamon polish comparison 2.jpg (17.8 KB, 77 views)

rhodesengr
You have gone far, far beyond any polishing that I have done on my SDB powder/flare drops.
Fantastic work!
Now, do they work by not leaving the brass deposit lines?

My eyes are bleeding!!!!

I have never seen brass or a funnel that shiny in my life, and I'm fairly old lol...
Amazing you got it that smooth.

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SWCA #3437

Thanks. You of course asked the key question. How good does the surface need to be? I have no idea but when I first called Dillion, they said to polish the funnel and use lube. I just got interested in the whole polishing thing and its highly likely that all you really need is lube. I get into these things because I learn something.

Part of me wonders if polishing is even a good idea in the first place because galling is from two metal surfaces interacting and if you polish the surface, you increase the contact surface area. Even highly polished surfaces are far from smooth. I have experience with this doing very high current contact joints with my work stuff.

But I ran into something else with the polishing stuff. Some of the vendors are not transparent about grit size. Polishing is grit, grit, and nothing but grit. If you go to buy sandpaper, every company simply prints on the back of the paper what the grit size is. It turns out the it's very different situation when you start looking at polishing compounds. Almost none of them say what grit size is in their compounds. This is true in the automotive polishing world, and industrial metal polishing. They just go by the color of their bars. I get pissed off by this and it makes me dig until I find what I want. I started using the Osborn bars because McMaster listed the grit size. I emailed Osborn to confirm the grit sizes and did get a reply back asking which exact products I have. I have not heard back from them yet. One company that has a lot of internet presence is Maverick Abrasives. They have a Youtube video showing polishing steel. I emailed them also to ask about grit size and they were particularly rude about not providing any grit size info. They just want to sell their "purple" bar which according to my tests, didn't look any better than the Osborn green bar.

I wanted to see if I could do better than the Osborn Green (allegedly 1 micron). The diamond polishing compounds on Amazon are from this company
About Us - TechDiamondTools - Silicon Valley based manufacturer
They are actually located in Silicon Valley and they are 100% transparent about grit size.

There are a lot of retail polishing products out for general use (Blue Magic, Flitz, etc) and the gun world also has "gun specific" polishes but none of these are transparent about grit size.

Now that I've been through all this, I think one could use 400 and 600 emery paper followed by the diamond compounds starting at 40 micron and going down as low as you think you need to go. I am at .25micron now and have the .1 micron stuff on order. How far down do you really need to go? I have no idea. I am going down to .1micron and over the next few months, I will see if this actually seems to work better or still transfers brass.

As far as how to apply these compounds, I think the Dremel type felt wheels are as good as anything. Amazon has lots of low cost assortments from various vendors. I think it is better to spin the funnel also but with Dremel wheels, you can probably get by without spinning the funnel.

I worry that you have gone off the deep end. I think you long ago passed the point of diminishing returns. Like you said, your polishing has simply increased the contact area. While you were on the UniqueTek page you could have just bought their funnels and called it a day. That being said, I am fascinated to see how much further you will take this project.

Maybe but I wonder what their initial surface looks like compared to what I am getting. But what about after some use? It will no doubt get some brass transfer and then need cleaning and repolishing.

I am still waiting on my .1 micron stuff. Its supposed to come tomorrow. But this evening I tried the .25micron stuff with different application methods. It really makes a difference how you apply it. My best result has been with a microfiber cloth and a very light touch. The same cloth with more pressure gives a more scratched surface. I also tried Dremel felt pads spun with the Dremel and a red foam pad not spun. Both of these looked worse than the light touch MF cloth.

Seriously...just give the darn thing a wipe every now and then with 4/0 steel wool. A little spray lube may help. You have visited the end of polish were there is no extra gain. At least for all purpose anyway. Got to admit...nice polish though. Now go load! lol

Can you please tell us how much better ammo produced by polished funnel performs vs. that of the unpolished funnel.

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Ruggy