Folks,
Curious thing happened last night. Was helping a couple friends do some .223 loading, using some "once fired" Federal .223 brass recently purchased, ostensibly from law enforcement training use.
After loading a couple hundred, we noticed that the bullets would move around in the case neck, even after crimping. They were crimped in the crimp groove, but we could still move them fore and aft, but not out of the groove.
Now, after playing with the crimper and sorting through all of other trouble shooting steps we could muster up, we discovered that the cases were all about .020" shorter than book "minimums", and as compared to military brass and some other new brass on hand. This was universal throughout the 4k rounds in this batch of once fired brass.
Anyone ever heard of "short" brass used in any recent manufacturing production runs?
The Dillon crimp die was adjusted all the way down (touching the shell plate) and it we still didn't get a tight enough crimp to keep the movement from happening. Wierd.
Thoughts, suggestions, directions.... punt on the brass?

Thanks in advance.

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.............SmithNut

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.............SmithNut

SmithNut,

I know you know this but that isn't what is supposed to hold those bullets by design. Neck tension is. If you take a case and size it properly there should be a .001" press fit. Normally this would keep the bullet from moving by hand. It won't in a "tube fed' situation, but then again, the 223 isn't found in that platform usually. Bullet selection might be different than the normal pointy types!

I would check to see if you got some small bullets too. Some that measure .222 or .223". They should be .224".

I can tell you this too. The 223 has been the most challenging bullet for me since beginning to reload. Stuck cases and all manner of other frustrating happenings!

If I had to make a guess without see them, I'd have to guess undersized bullets.
Like Skip above said bullets must be .224 to work right.

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John

I would agree with the thought that the bullets are small but, what about the cases being .020 short? I assume they are short before sizing which might mean an over size chamber such as in a SAW.

Skip, I agree the .223 is one of the more challenging rounds to load.

Frank

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sona si latine loqueris .

Short cases will only make a difference in the crimping of the bullet. If the resizing die is set properly, all the say to the shell plate, then the neck size is controlled by it.

I suppose there is another possibility. If there was too much crimp then you might have re-enlarged the case by doing it.

As a suggestionI am assuming something here) Remove the de-capping pin and collet from the sizing die. Take a loaded round and reinsert it into the station with that die. VERY CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY move the ram up into that die. With the pin removed you shouldn't feel any resistance until you get the round all of the way up into the die. At that point the bottom of the die should be touching the shell plate. If for some reason the case won't go that far, guess what, you have a bunch of bullets to pull!

All of this can be ignored if you have a case gauge. Simply insert the case into that and if it meets with resistance as the neck enters it's area, then the crimp may be too much making the bullet loose while capturing it in the cannalure.

Does that make sense?

Try sizing a case without the expander plug and then seat a bullet. It may be your expander may be oversize if so the bullet will seat snuggly. Put a set of micrometers to the expander ball. They are easy to dress down if not carbide. I agree with SmithCrazy and would mike the bullets as well. Bullets should not wobble, crimp or no crimp.

Interesting problem! I assume you have loaded .223 ammo before using the die set in question and that the brass is "once fired" and not previously reloaded?

Thanks for the comments folks.
I have loaded .223 before, been some years though. I can tell you, however, that the other gents I was helping have been loading continuously for the past couple years. Never had a problem like this, until we (one of the others, and I) ended up with this "once fired" lot of cases.
The bullets are Winchester 55 grain SPBT, and we did measure them to confirm that they are .224" all new in 100 rd bags (not a bulk purchase).
The dies are Dillon Machine dies that came with the 650 press we were using. The wierd part is that the case mouths looked like they were definately getting some crimp, it's just that they were not securely held in place. With finger pressure we could move the bullets in the cannelure groove fore and aft.
I'll mention to them that we try without the expander die, that's a good idea.
The last time I loaded .223 was many years ago, before I transistioned to the progressive type loaders, never had an issue with my old Rock Chucker with RCBS dies.
So, like FrankD45 asked, why the short cases? I've seen cases grow, but never shrink? The assumption here was that they started short, is it possible to shrink due to an oversized chamber? I do not know the department that shot this stuff, only that it's probably here in the NW, nor do I know what type of AR (again, assuming it's an AR platform).
I can see an individual gun or two having an oversized chamber, but all this brass was consistently measuring short, is there a type of AR that is manufactured with an oversized chamber, and will this case brass to shrink?
Wierd, still perplexed. Thanks for the comments so far.
smith crazy, interesting angle, we did use a case guage on the brass when setting up the press to ensure we were sizing correctly, but don't remember if we used it to check a loaded round. Your comment about over crimping makes sense. We were focused on not enough crimp due to the short case and the crimp die bottoming out. Maybe it's just the opposite.

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.............SmithNut

My son was having a similar problem when he was loading the .223. When I went to visit him I loaded some dummy rounds. I was using all the same equipment without a problem. My conclusion was he was over crimping. It doesn't take much on that short neck to cause a problem.

I once had some bullets which I believe were 53gr hps Winchester. Same problem. The bullets were loose after crimping. I finally figured out the the bullet ogive was very long. This made crimping to magazine length impossible as the neck was trying to crimp on the ogive. My solution for that was to borrow a canneluring tool. Bruce

Excessive roll crimp pushes the neck walls away
from the bullet, leaving it loose...been there myself...hopefully you've got a collet type puller, "re-resize" the necks...for some applications like loading for 223, I like the Lee factory crimp dies...they work slick and eliminate the possibility of this problem... Jack

Sounds like this is an area to investigate. I called my buddy and he said he was sure we used the case guage on the completed cartridges... but I don't remember.

Thanks again all, we'll look into this...

I'm still kinda bewildered by the short cases....

Regards

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.............SmithNut

If you check some cases from manufactured ammunition you will see they are all on the short side. It seems to be another cost saving thing. It would seem that the shorter cases over the thousands of them produced would make a smart marketing move.

Thats an interesting angle Skip. I just looked at 10 pieces of Lake City brass out of a pack of 100. 8 of the 10 measured 1.753 - 1.754. The other two were 1.755 and 1.756. I gave up trying to figure out the .223. I trim them to 1.750, load them light, and expect three loads each. If the cases hold up beyond that, I consider myself ahead of the game.

Frank

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sona si latine loqueris .

FWIW I never use the expander ball in any calibers. Just don't see a need for it, and within reason the more friction in the case neck area, the better.

I load a fair amount of .223 with new or pulled FMJ 55 or 62 gr bullets. I did have a batch of brass that gave me less grip on the bullet and never could quite figure out why. I thought perhaps that I had tumbled them too long for that nice shiny finish and reduced the external case neck dimensions, but never did figure it out. With a little fiddling and careful attention to crimping (single stage press) I was able to get enough case neck tension for practical purposes. I relegated them to practice only ammo in my AR and never had a bit of a problem with them.

.223s can be quirky rounds. I trim on a Dillon case trimmer which gives me an exact case length and check every round with a case length gauge. The only ammunition-related malfunctions I have had in my 3K rounds through an M4gery have been either extractor-related or from one faulty. Easy fixes and no recurrences.

I have a Dillon 450 set up for .223 that was given to me still in the box. I would rather do batch processing on my old C press. I'm just not in a hurry.

Something is amiss but it definitly is'nt case length.

Could need annealing.. Neck to hard and springs back too far?

Something I found helpful was to take my decapping stem and expander ball out, mic the expander ball for reference, and then chuck it up in a cordless drill and polish it good with some 600 grit. If memory serves, I went to .2225", that provides good neck tension and hasn't caused any problems loading. I have a 550 with Dillon dies, and I don't need too much on the crimp to hold the bullet firm. When I was setting up I'd test by loading a dummy and, without crimping, put the tip against the bench and see if I could push it in with a fair amount of force. You don't want to chance bullet set back, could have some bad consequences pressure-wise. hth

ETA: if you're using cases marked "FC", you might just want to get rid of them. By all accounts they aren't worth the problems. Plenty of info on the Brian Enos and ar15 forums. Good Luck!

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