I have been relaoding pistol and revolver ammo from .380 to 44 mag. Never any bottleneck cases. Unless you count 30 carbine which has a slight taper which I belive headspaces on the mouth??. The 223 on the shoulder??

I want to start loading 223. Before I start loading for a semi auto AR15 I figured it was wise to load for by bolt action first. That way I can neck size and do not have to full length size them.

My question is on headspace. If I measure my empty fire formed brass and keep it trimmed to specified length and then keep my overall loaded length at or a little less than spec, do I need to worry or do any other measurements?
I have looked at guages such as the Wilson

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=456614

But do not see what that does that I do not do with my calipers?

I have read many articles on headspace and the more I read, the more I get confused.

Perhaps to much "headspace" in the 60's

Any pointers , links, advice appreciated.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I have been relaoding pistol and revolver ammo from .380 to 44 mag. Never any bottleneck cases. Unless you count 30 carbine which has a slight taper which I belive headspaces on the mouth??. The 223 on the shoulder??

I want to start loading 223. Before I start loading for a semi auto AR15 I figured it was wise to load for by bolt action first. That way I can neck size and do not have to full length size them.

My question is on headspace. If I measure my empty fire formed brass and keep it trimmed to specified length and then keep my overall loaded length at or a little less than spec, do I need to worry or do any other measurements?
I have looked at guages such as the Wilson

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=456614

But do not see what that does that I do not do with my calipers?

I have read many articles on headspace and the more I read, the more I get confused.

Perhaps to much "headspace" in the 60's

Any pointers , links, advice appreciated.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Headspace is defined as that dimension from the casehead to the point on the chamber that stops case movement. For rimmed cases, it is the chamber dimension from chamber mouth to bolt face. For cases that headspace on the mouth, it is caselength. Headspace for bottlenecked cartridges is measured from the head to a reference point on the case shoulder. That is why you can not measure headspace on the case using calipers. You need a case gauge (Wilson and Midway sell them).

On the rifle end of things, "excess headspace" is what you are mostly concerned with, and it can be caused by a bad chamber or improperly over-resized case shoulder. You need gages for that as well, or at the least, some way of measuring the amount of freeplay casehead support with the bolt in locked position.

I forgot to mention that your first question is about case length, not headspace. The .223 is one of those calibers that "grows" a lot during firing cycles. I gauge and trim each and every time I reload this caliber. Years ago, I had the displeasure of loading and firing some reloads that were not properly trimmed in a .223 Mini-14. The extracted cases showed excessive pressure primers and had 1" long brass strips extruded from the case mouth into the chambers!

Case length is a dimension you should use your calipers for. Bottlenecked case headspace you can not.

Every round of .223 that I load is always full length sized. I make sure that the shellholder touches the bottom of the sizing die when there is a case in the shellholder. I have never had any chambering problems in the DPMS M4 clone. I have never experienced any signs of casehead separation and some of my brass is going on six loadings. I also use a lot of the softer FC brass that so many shooters love to hate and have never had any problems with that either. But I use only CCI primers and never Federal.

Loading .223 is much easier than I had expected it to be, but you need to make sure that the cases are not too long or you will experience some serious problems. As long as you full length size and trim when necessary you'll find it is an easy cartridge to load.

Dave Sinko

Thanks for the replies. If I am loading for a bolt action I was told that there is no need to full size and only neck size? I have both dies one for necksizing and the other full sizeing die.
If only neck sized and only used in the same bolt action gun than is triming and OAL then enough. I do not understand what the guage does? If you put the brass in it and it is a "no go" then what? Fully resize and then it's OK?

I was in the shop when a guy brough in a completly KABoom/destroyed SW AR15 due to handloads that's why I want to know what I am doing before moving on to gas operated rifles.

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Still Running Against the Wind

OCD1, your situation is exactly where I was last November. Up until November I had only reloaded handgun ammunition, but went out and bought a CZ 527 in .223 Remington with the 1:12 twist. In the short time I've been loading this round, here's what I learned.

Buy the Lee collet sizing die set. It has both a full length and neck sizing die, as well as the seating die. I also bought a Forster micrometer seating die, mostly because I like gadgets. I mostly neck size, but only because I had to lube cases.

OAL measuring will drive you nuts if you measure from the bullet tip, especially if you use soft tipped bullets. I bought a Davidson bullet comparator from Sinclair International that measures from the bullet ogive. Much easier to get the OAL right with this tool and a digital caliper. The rifle is much more sensitive in terms of accuracy to the cartridge OAL and how far the bullet is from the lands.

I have best results with the Sierra 52 grain MatchKing and the Sierra 40 grain BlitzKing using H322 so far, but am now trying out Benchmark.

Oh yeah, after all those years of using carbide sizing dies, buy yourself a stuck case remover. Don't ask me how I know...

Anyway, this has been a real lot of fun so far, but there are a lot more variables to master to get the one-hole groups at 100 yards my rifle and this cartridge in capable of.

OCD1,

For reloading for your AR-type semi auto rifle go with full-length resizing. Don't even think about neck-sizing only for the AR. The real value of a case inspection gauge is in detecting over or under-sized cases and thereby preventing headspace issues. Remember, the range of acceptable versus excessive headspace is only 0.005" of so. Too small to detect by eyeball, but enough to detect by touch across the casehead when in a gauge.

Bolt actions can get by using neck-sizing only because they have a lot of mechanical advantage (cams) in forcing a bolt closed on a slightly oversized case. AR rifles do not.

Many, if not all, of the AR kah-BOOM! incidents involve cartridges that are undercharged (squib loads) that leave a bore obstruction and the following full-charge load destroys the rifle. The military has studied kah-BOOM incidents using the M16 series service rifles and squad automatic weapons and and have rarely found ammunition-caused failures. What they have found show that many gun blowups are caused by operator error: attempting to chamber and fire bent cartridges, dented cartridges, loose bullets, extremely dirty chambers, etc that cause firing out of battery.

You can avoid most of these problems simply by maintaining high inspection standards and paying absolute attention to the reloading process. I, and many of my shooting friends, avoid high-volume production progressive machines for this reason. We have seen too many instances of under-charged and over-charged cartridges that have come from using progressive reloaders.

This cartridge by far is the biggest pain in the rump to load that I have ever done!

Stuck cases? I could write a book about removing them with out a special tool!

Use a pad and RCBS II for the best results. Imperial wax works good, you just have to make sure you use the right amount, not too much not too little. Neither works better just the pad is easier to use. I have an old Lyman cloth one that works much better than the new RCBS.

I load for an AR. It has 1 in 9 and shoots the heavy bullets wonderfully. I get MOA groups from that platform. I don't think I will go to a bolt action anytime soon!

I use Varget for those types of loads and make less than 100 at a time. Sierra Match King HPBT 69gr.

For mass production type of ammo I use a 55gr FMJBT over Hodgdon's BLC-(2).

None of them are trimmed. All of them are in range brass that has needed the primer pockets swaged. That is another pain! I got the Dillon tool and it works real well. Just another step. I guess I should stop complaining, I get my brass pretty cheap. I buy it by the 5gal buckets. Of course, it isn't all 223!

Another caution OCD, the loads you develop for your bolt action may not cycle an AR. You need a powder that was designed to operate a gas system. I'm thinking of those that are military powders or replacements are best.

Hope this helps.

It’s not that difficult. The major difference between a bolt gun and a gas gun is the over all length aka (OAL). The gas gun OAL is constrained to fit the magazine unless single loading. The bolt gun allows longer OAL if properly set up. As for barrel rate of twist 1-8” is what I employ on my bolt gun for the Sierra 77gr HPBT, 75gr A-Max (Hornady), and Sierra 80gr HPBT. As for powder I prefer RX15. Even if you have not loaded centerfire rifle there’s nothing magic here. A good manual we’ll walk you thru the steps. One may obtain a cartridge case gauge to check the case for proper dimensional fit.

My bolt guns are no longer state of the art but then neither am I. On a good day I can live up to the accuracy potential of the gun and the gun shoots right with the latest/greatest platforms being used today.

Oh yes the bolt gun on the bottom is .223.

Wow, Dennis. Great looking rifles. What are they and type of target shooting are they used for??

The rifles are intended for NRA highpower across the course shooting competition 200yd – 300yd – 500/600yd. Their behind the curve technology wise now and so am I at this point.

The top rifle is a Remington 40X in 7.62Nato-(.308Win) with RPA rear sight and the front sight is a RPA ladder sight. In theory the ladder sight allows one to shoot long range with out an adjustable cheek piece on the stock. The rear sight doesn’t have to be elevated as the front sight may be depressed for long distance shooting. This allows constant head/eye position what is referred to as spot weld on the stock.

The bottom rifle is a much modified Remington 700 in .223Rem. Modifications clip-slot, notched receiver ring, receiver drilled&tapped rear sight mount, new barrel 8”twist, hand rail, adjustable butt plate and bedded stock.

This is basically my short course rifle shot at 200yds with reduced target to replicate 300yd and 500/600yd lines.

I’ve shot the .223 at several long range matches 1000yd. It’s a learning experience. Modified the stock with an improvised cheek piece held on by 100-MPH tape it worked for the occasion. This isn’t for the faint of heart.

I have both of the Lee dies, neck (collet) and full length die. I am only going to load on a single stage one at a time and only for the bolt action for right now.

Anyone have a picture of the guage with a case in it? You are saying the guage is more accurate than a caliper in checking the length of the empty brass?

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Still Running Against the Wind

I don't have a picture, but operation of the Wilson case gauge is simple. It is a steel cylinder with a chamber cut in it. At the head end there is a step across the opening.
Full length size a case and drop it in. The head of the case should fall between the high and low sides of the step. If not, the cartridge headspace is off. If it drops in below the bottom side, back out the sizing die; if it stands above the high side, screw it in deeper. Fractions of a turn will be all the adjustment needed.

The gauge is the maximum case length. If any neck sticks out at the other end, trim it off.

There are all manner of adjustable gauges but they can be tedious to use, my Stoney Point headspace gauge seldom gets out of the box. I have never had any trouble out of cases sized to pass the Wilson gauge.


I don't gauge neck sized cases for a bolt action. They came out, they go back in. If the bolt closes hard it is time to full length size. A collet or bushing neck die doesn't stretch brass much but check with calipers to see if they need trimming.

Thanks. So the gauge is not just determining length, it is also telling you if the formation of the shoulder/begining of the neck is good or bad also?

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Still Running Against the Wind

Rifle magazine No.243 March 2009 issue as an extensive article on Handloading the 223 Remington authored by Brain Pearce. If not on sale in your area your area point of contact: www.riflemagazine.com

Measure your cases and trim them if over-length, full-length resize them, and choose your loads carefully as you must be concerned with port pressure with an AR15 as with any semi-auto rifle. You should be fine, then. Excess port pressure will be unduly hard on your rifle. I learned this the hard way, fortunately quickly, years ago when I tried reloading for mine. I wondered why my cases were ejecting into the next county and why they were whacking the ejection port edge. No damage to the rifle, happily enough, except some slight peening of the edge of the port at the point the brass was hitting.

I see lots of good info here! One of the things I haven't seen talked about is; there will be differences in fire formed brass from one gun to the next. So if you are using brass fired in another gun you will need to Full Length size the brass before shooting in your bolt gun. I have one intelligence impaired friend who tried shooting neck size 77 grain long OAL bolt action loads in a AR-15. We are very surprised the bolt closed. After firing the bolt was severally stuck and had to be beat open, Then he fired a second shot. The bolt was again severally stuck and while beating it open the second time, the charging handle was broken and the dust guard hinge (receiver side) was broke off. There is no problem with having ammo dedicated to different rifles, the problem comes when you use them in the wrong gun. The simple solution is to full length size and use a standard OAL for all 223 ammo. Or be sure to carefully mark all the information on your boxes of ammo. By the way on bolt guns, many people have found increased accuracy by seating the bullet longer than "Max" OAL. this is often .000 to .025 short of touching the rifling lands. My 1000 yard bolt gun ammo won't begin to fit in an AR magazine by about a half inch. My 500 yard bolt gun 223 the rounds are .290 over "max" OAL. It will very from rifle to rifle! and from one style of bullet to another style.

The Sierra loading manual has separate loading data for bolt guns and semi-autos. If their "Accuracy" load data shoots so-so in your bolt gun, I recommend you play with the OAL. I went from 1.2" to .014" groups just by adjusting the OAL. with the same load otherwise. In AR's you are locked into the OAL because of magazine length and accuracy adjustments are made in changing the type or amount of gunpowder, primers, or bullet style. Have fun learning what your guns like. Ivan

This is one of the better threads I've ever read on handloading a cartridge. One thing that I'd like to add is that I use a RCBS X-Die to resize my .223's because I hate trimming.

I always full length size and set up my die so the press cams over during the reloading cycle because a cartridge that is not sized to minimum specs may stick in the chamber like Ivan stated.

Even though the OAL is limited to the magazine length in an AR, you can still play with bullet seating because nothing says you can't load to less than max.

Don't worry about case life with an AR. They beat up the brass badly enough that they simply will not last anywhere near as long as they would in a bolt gun.

If you neck size for your bolt gun, you will still need to full length size after 3-4 loadings because the brass will start to lose it's elasticity and become hard to chamber.

For an AR, you want full length sized cases, even small base dies are a nice insurance policy. Save the neck dies for the bolt gun. A case gage is not needed for the bolt gun, you can easily check case fit by just chambering a round. In an AR, a case gage will help you setup your dies more easily. If a sized case fits the gage, 99% of the time it will fit the chamber. Use the calipers to check OAL but use the gage to check proper headspace/di setup. Then there is COAL (cartridge OAL), again use the calipers but in the AR, it must fit the mag, in a bolt gun, it must fit the mag & can be loaded closer to the rifling in many guns.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I reload for an AR. I full length resize. I use mostly military 5.56 which is a pain to get ready. I check all brass for OAL and cut as needed. You have to lube the outside of the case. I use a lubed pad and lube every 4th round. I rub the case on the pad and use my fingers to wipe most of the lube onto the next case. NEVER get lube into the neck or you will bridge the powder. I have reloaded many thousands of cases with few problems. If you need help P.M. me and I will give you some pointers.

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

Wilson case gauge. Get one. I have one for every caliber I load. Not cheap, but I believe, a required piece of equipment. Can be used to check many parameters. More importantly, it is much safer than dropping a reloaded round into a firearm to see if it will chamber.

I have the RCBS small base dies for the AR and never have a problem.

This thread should be good . . . it's been nearly 5 years in development

EXACTLY... If the OP hasn't figured it out by now i'm sure by now he gave up!!! Another thread brought back from the Abyss...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Since the bottle neck rimless cartridge headspaces on the shoulder it is pretty impossible to measure with a caliper as there is no flat surface to measure to. Do the plunk test in your barrel or buy a gauge. I bought a gauge for my 30-06 and it's a lot handier than trying to use the gun and cycling the cases in and out with the bolt. It was a good purchase.

OK, a few things here. I've been loading .223/5/56mm, both bolt and semi, for over 30 years and have picked up a few things.

1. Skip the small base dies. They overwork the brass to no advantage.

2. Carbide neck expander buttons are worth the money, they reduce case neck stretch and reduce effort.

3. You definately need to trim brass regularly. How often depends upon the chamber(s) in your individual rifle(s) and your loads. Failing to do so can cause excessive pressures. I don't care if you neck size or full length, you're gonna need to trim at some point.

4. The case gauge is a good idea to check loaded ammo dimensions and headspace. You definately need to verify that your die/press setup produces cases within the headspace tolerances. DO NOT bet your rifle/life and limb on the manufacturers instructions on sizing die setup.

5. Based upon experience with 7.62, if I was starting fresh with .223, I'd buy Dillon dies. You get a full length size die (needs the case gauge to properly set), seating die, taper crimp die and a spare carbide expander/decapper. Keep your .223 shell holder with the dies to prevent confusing it with a 9mm and disturbing your settings.