Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

Mike,

Happy belated birthday!

I have been mulling over this data for a while now. In that mulling, I went back to the image of the fired brass and noticed a couple of things.

TSBL_primers.jpg


The only signs of cratering appear to be the 5th round of 4756, #1, #3 and #5 of Longshot and N340. There's also a flattened primer, #2, with HS-6 that just about fills the primer pocket. None of this would be a concern to me, due to how minor most of it is, except the HS-6 load where there is a lesser degree of flattening on the remaining cartridges.

Since I have sold my only 2", I don't have the means to try any of these loads in anything less than a 4" barrel. :(
 
Thank you, Paul.

Another sign of increasing pressure that I was talking about is impression of the breach face. At this velocity you can see it on almost all primers. Minor point - primer #2 in HS-6 series may not be as flat as it seems. Some of the cases in my S&B lot have no bevel on the primer pocket; this is one of them. Without a bevel primers look flatter then they are.

Agree with you that all these signs ain't terribly impressive. I suppose it's a good thing. :)

Mike
 
Yep, now that you pointed it out I can see what was making it look so flattened. ;) I thought something was out of the ordinary, but I didn't look at the bevel on the primer pocket. :)

Those HS-6 loads have flattened the primers somewhat, but that may be due to having to use magnum primers instead of Rem 1 1/2s, i.e. the cup material may be the actual difference.

As I reflect further, I don't even have a 4" .38 Special anymore. I gave my 1949 M&P to my daughter, so I only have a 6" M14 now. :(
 
Hi, I haven't been on the forum in a while so have been browsing through some of the interesting threads. While I do not have a suitible camera to post a detail pic, a side by side exam of PowerPistol and 4756 looks like a match to your pics of BB's powder and 4756-All of which proves naught since BB says that it is non canister grade and therefore may differ in burning rate from what we buy........but I have found PP a great performing powder in.38 special at the current low levels of SAAMI pressure handbook loads.
 
I hate to say it, but SAAMI has as much credibility as a certain high level politician on the scene right now. :(
 
Hoptob said:
Great points as always, Tony. I should have mentioned in my report that this project builds up on excellent FBI load development work that you, Jim and others have done and posted before.

In fact my favorite powder for this application is same as yours - HS6. First of, it's old, tried and true powder. When you use it, you don't expect unpleasant surprises such as unexpected pressure spikes, excessive temperature sensitivity, etc. There is a lot to be said for using same powder as generations of reloaders used before you.

Based on my pressure calculations HS6 reaches BB velocities at the lowest pressure point among the powders I tested. Of course, calculations are just that - calculations. They could prove inaccurate but that's the best I've got. With 160 gr. soft RB bullet and 2-1/4" SP101 (fast gun with slightly longer barrel than 2" you used) I got following numbers:

6.3 gr. HS6.....843 fps....16,200 CUP (Hodgdon max charge and pressure)
7.0 gr. HS6.....928 fps....19,900 CUP
7.5 gr. HS6.....986 fps....22,800 CUP
8.0 gr. HS6....1042 fps....25,900 CUP

Note that even though BB round is charged with 7.5 gr. of a powder, it is a different powder than HS6. It took 8.0 gr. HS6 to replicate BB velocity. I sent some additional information to your yahoo email address.

Another interesting connection here is that 8.0 gr. HS6 under 158 gr. lead bullet is... That's right, it's the maximum load recommendation for 38 special from Speer #8. ;)

Mike
Click to expand...
Mike,
Thanks, I did get the additional information you sent...

Now that is very interesting, Speer #8 listed 8.0gr HS-6, wow... I'm glad to see my working load of 7.0gr HS-6 is actually under 20,000 PSI as I thought. That is my favorite .38 Special +P round to date. Thanks again for all the info...
 
Mike, do you have any 2400 to compare next to the BB powder?

Also, if you are trying to experiment outside SAAMI specs, do you happen to have a copy of Lyman/Ideal Handbook #39? They have data for heavy framed .38 specials and moderate .357s that might be of use to you.

And please be careful.
 
Since this thread has come back I might as well chime in again. Like the above posts I've been wondering if Power Pistol (or a variant of) might be the powder used in the BB ammo.
 
Like the above posts I've been wondering if Power Pistol (or a variant of) might be the powder used in the BB ammo.
Click to expand...

I doubt it, Tony: I've run max +P loads with Power Pistol in the .38, and I don't quite get the velocities that the BB stuff delivers. Get lots of flash, though! :D
 
So then... How well does a soft 158 gr. SWCHP actually penetrate at 1050 FPS? Is it really any better than a hard SWC? I have my doubts.

If I could find a 147 gr. cast HP bullet for the 9mm, I believe I can get 1100 FPS out of my 2" 940. And it's amazing how many people think 147 gr. bullets are a terrible choice in the 9mm.

Dave Sinko
 
Lyman makes, or used to make, a 147 gr cast HP that only gets 1061 fps out of a 4" barrel, according to Lyman 49th edition. That's 368 ft lbs of energy from a 4" barrel.

OTOH, I have clocked 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel with .38 Specials using a 158 gr bullet for 425 ft lbs of energy.

How much that extra 58 ft pounds means on a target is unknown to me, but if I had my druthers, I'd druther have it. ;)
 
Hoptob, have you thought about Ramshot's Silhouette? It's a duplicate of WAP, and the Ramshot load data lists (from a 7.75" barrel) a 158 gr SWC getting 1046fps over 5.6gr at 16,720psi. It's also flash suppressed. It's right below HS-6 on Ramshot's burn rate chart, too.

Great photo essay and test! Thank you!
 
A most interesting thread indeed. I am always on the lookout for warm .38 loads. However, I am also something of a cautious creature whenever I see really warm or speedy loads (yes, pressure worries me!). I am interested in trying some of these loads in some of my own revolvers (mostly k-frame .357s...but with a 686 and a Highway Patrolman thrown in for good measure). Has anyone else attempted to duplicate these loads in other guns...and with what results?
 
FWIW..........

ddixie884 said:
Would I be close, if I were to assume that the TFBI load charge of Unique has two 5s in it?
Click to expand...

My Lyman 45th shows 5.4gr. Unique(Max.) under a 158gr. cast(.358), from a 6" mod. 14 S&W @ 1002fps.
Rem 1-1/2 primer
Rem cases
 
Just a hunch(probably wrong! LOL)

Though I have never opened up a BB shell to see the powder, I always suspected it just might be Lil-Gun inside, Lil-Gun REALLY turns on with heavy for caliber bullets, driving them at the highest velocities, usually with FAR less pressure than any other powder, As I said, I have never seen the BB powder.
And IIRC BB came on the scene just about the time Lil-Gun did.
And I know for a fact that in 180gr. 357's Lil-Gun will duplicate the 180gr. BB loading to a "T"! Without any signs of excess pressure.
Food for thought:)
 
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Glad to see old thread coming back from oblivion.

I have not tried to duplicate BB load with other powders. It's unlikely that they use 2400 or Lil'gun just because there was only 7.5 gr. of a powder in the case. It would probably take a lot more of a slow powder to get to this kind of velocities. A member of this forum JFH has a lot of experience with Ramshot powders. I know that he likes them and I trust his opinion and experience. Unique is a possibility but I don't think two 5's wouldn't cut it. According to Alliant manual (link) 5.2 gr. Unique only gets you 919 fps from a 6-incher. I'd expect that it takes 6.5-7.0 gr. Unique to get 1000+ fps from a 2" bbl.

Thanks for nice comments :) I am working on and off on a new project "Speer 135 grain load on steroids". Will eventually finish it off and post the results.

Cheers,

Mike
 
Last edited:
Thanks for nice comments :) I am working on and off on a new project "Speer 135 grain load on steroids". Will eventually finish it off and post the results.
Click to expand...
Mike,
May I suggest using a 140gr Hornady XTP bullet for your load development. Those 135gr Gold Dots are very expensive compared to the Hornady bullets. When I was working on replicating the 135gr Short Barrel .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum rounds that's what I did. (I was very lucky to get 3 boxes of 100 for only $12/100) Even at retail prices they are still much cheaper.
 
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