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Old 07-13-2009, 09:03 PM
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Talking 158 gr hard cast / 357 loads

I'm a soon to be owner of a 686 with 8-3/8" barrrel. The check is in the mail. I'm thinking about starting with some 158 gr LSWC from Missouri Bullet. He claims about 18 bhn that should be good for magnum velocity. I'm not really shure what the limits are, but 1200 fps sounds reasonable. I've used his 12 bhn, 158 gr lswc in .38 special at around 800 fps without any problems in a M15.

I'd like to hear some opinions on an accurate target load for the 686.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:52 PM
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Congrats on the new gun!

I don't have anything longer than 6" barrels in my arsenal but my M19's like 5.3 grains Universal and a Fed GMM Mag primer under a 158 gr LSWC. The chrono data I've got on that load is using a 6" barrel- 994 fps. Out of 8 3/8" barrel that would probably go up to 1050+. It's a pleasure to shoot not a lot of recoil.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:36 PM
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I shoot a Mod.686 4" tuned by Bob Dunlap. I've been using 2400 for years with Elmer Keiths recommened load of 13.5 grs & a hard cast 158 gr. keith bullet. Never had a problem.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:05 AM
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I use 12.2grs of AA#9, 13.0grs of 2400, 6.7grs of Unique with 158gr SWC commercial cast. The AA#9 and 2400 load runs 1,250 +/- a few FPS from a 4" M66, the Unique load runs about 1,100 fps from the same gun.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:19 AM
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It's good to see others shooting lead. I just haven't found a GREAT way to clean the copper out of my barrels after shooting jacketed bullets. A brush wrapped with copper choreboy make clean-up after shooting lead a snap. Thanks for the load tips.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:35 AM
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one more question........

I saw on handloads.com, load data for 2400 / 158 gr lswc that was supposed to have come from alliant. I went to Alliant's website and 2400 was not listed under 158 gr lswc bullet data. I just wonder why they've taken that data off the website?
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckloads View Post
one more question........

I saw on handloads.com, load data for 2400 / 158 gr lswc that was supposed to have come from alliant. I went to Alliant's website and 2400 was not listed under 158 gr lswc bullet data. I just wonder why they've taken that data off the website?
JMO but I dislike their web site. They do not list much of anything. I think they are ascared of someone hurting themself.

Just like they "hide" the do not use 125 gr bullets with Blue Dot. It's on the site but you need to hunt for it. Should be on the main page.

I have e mailed them in the past and they have responded with some load data.

Lee Modern lists for Herc 2400 (if this is indeed the same powder of today??) for 158 cast 13.9 start 1487 fps to 15.3 for 1620 fps. Use at your own risk. So out of a 8" "rifle" I have no idea what it may be
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Last edited by Rule3; 07-14-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:44 PM
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I have a hard copy Alliant load data 2005 edition and the latest edition and don't see any loads for 2400 and 158 gr lswc in either one. The latest edition seems to list nothing but Speer bullets and when I called them and asked why the max charge for Unique went down so much from the 2005 edition they told me that the Speer bullets, which is all that they're listing now are swaged and IIRC he said that because of that they're softer and will lead at lower velocities.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:34 PM
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Steve C's AA#9 load is exceptional(I go to 12.5gr, probably an insignificant difference as velocity run is about the same). For magnum performance I have not used anything but AA#9 for years.
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:12 PM
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I can't wait to try Accurate #9 in both my 158 gr LSWC's and XTP's however I'm calling every local place within 75 miles a couple of times a week and it can't be found. All I have on hand is Unique and a very little bit of Accurate #5.
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:31 PM
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As I recall, I cast that bullet and load it with a standard primer and either 14g 2400 or more often 15g W296.

In either case, this is a hot load, so work up to it as I did.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:44 PM
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If you can buy in bulk or have some friends to order with you try Powder Valley or Widener's. One or the other usually has AA powder tho I have to admit I have not checked for awhile.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:53 PM
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Wideners has Accurate#9 8lb in stock right now,along with Wolf Primers.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:24 PM
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I don't attempt to shoot cast bullets that fast. What few rounds I want to shoot that fast I use jacketed bullets.

As far as getting copper fouling out of your barrel --- You should only get the tiniest amount at typical handgun velocities and Sweets 7.62 solvent will remove it easily.

Last edited by Emerson; 07-14-2009 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
Lee Modern lists for Herc 2400 (if this is indeed the same powder of today??) for 158 cast 13.9 start 1487 fps to 15.3 for 1620 fps. Use at your own risk. So out of a 8" "rifle" I have no idea what it may be
My "everyday" .357 load is a 158 LSWC over 14.5 grains of 2400. Gives me 1350 out of my 5 inch model 27, if my memory is correct. Tried 15 grains, but returns did not justify the costs.
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson View Post
I don't attempt to shoot cast bullets that fast. What few rounds I want to shoot that fast I use jacketed bullets.

As far as getting copper fouling out of your barrel --- You should only get the tiniest amount at typical handgun velocities and Sweets 7.62 solvent will remove it easily.
I've used Sweets extensively on rifles, but never handguns. Have you had any experience with Sweets damaging a nickel or polished blue finish?
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:13 AM
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For velocities above ca 800-900 fps I only use jacketed bullets to prevent leading. I have never been able to successfully drive lead bullets at ca. 1000 fps or above without expereincing leading.
For mild loads with lead bullets my favorite powder is Trail Boss. As a plus it is virtually impossible to double charge a case with Trail Boss. The Hodgdon website has excellent data for both starting and maximum loads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckloads View Post
I'm a soon to be owner of a 686 with 8-3/8" barrrel. The check is in the mail. I'm thinking about starting with some 158 gr LSWC from Missouri Bullet. He claims about 18 bhn that should be good for magnum velocity. I'm not really shure what the limits are, but 1200 fps sounds reasonable. I've used his 12 bhn, 158 gr lswc in .38 special at around 800 fps without any problems in a M15.

I'd like to hear some opinions on an accurate target load for the 686.

Last edited by TSQUARED; 07-15-2009 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:17 AM
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I've used Sweets extensively on rifles, but never handguns. Have you had any experience with Sweets damaging a nickel or polished blue finish?
Any cleaner with ammonia it will tend to destroy Nickel. You need to be carefully with the stronger ones like Sweets and only use it in the barrel and not drip it all over the finish. I have no nickle guns but if I did, I would coat the finish with either a wax or Teflon cleaner (Break Free CLP) let dry and then clean the barrel.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:26 AM
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I use two of the same loads as Steve C described above: 13.0 of 2400 and 6.7 of Unique. Sometimes I load a little less Unique (6.0) depending on the mood, and I just started loading Berry's 158 grain plated bullets over the 2400 charge. It's all good. I have used 13.5 grains of 2400 with both hard-cast lead and plated with no problems, but settled in on the slightly lesser charge. Duckbill: congratulations to both of us on new no-dash 686s with the long barrel and adjustable front sights. I just bought one off a forum member and have had it out to the range twice so far. Lots of fun, although I haven't started to fool around with the adjustable sights. I hope you're as satisfied with yours as I am with mine.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:39 AM
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"I have never been able to successfully drive lead bullets at ca. 1000 fps or above without expereincing leading."


Just switch to a harder bullet alloy. I use straight Linotype with or without a gas check for handgun bullets that I want to shoot at magnum velocities. It also works well in rifle loads up to at least 2,200 fps if used with a gas check.
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
I've used Sweets extensively on rifles, but never handguns. Have you had any experience with Sweets damaging a nickel or polished blue finish?
I have never used it on any gun with a nickle finish, but I have never had a problem losing any finish on a blued gun. I've used Sweets for at least 25 years with no complaints.
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:31 PM
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Thanks for the conversation. The gun and hard cast bullets are "in the mail". Now to find brass. I've got over a pound of 2400, but my stash of Unique is mighty slim.

It will be a good weekend to get to the range. A cool front is moving in. The 686 won't be in yet but some 100 yard shooting with the 460 XVR is in order.

Be safe.
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Old 07-16-2009, 11:06 AM
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Just switch to a harder bullet alloy. I use straight Linotype with or without a gas check for handgun bullets that I want to shoot at magnum velocities. It also works well in rifle loads up to at least 2,200 fps if used with a gas check.
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Where can you buy bullets cast with linotype that are affordable? I have had no luck with any commercial 158 gr SWC at velocity getting close to 1000 fps. All I get is leading and poor accuracy. I have used bullets from many commercial casters and have tried multiple powders in five different 357 magnum Smith and Wesons with no luck.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:15 PM
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Stout load of 2400, 158 gr hard cast or JSP/JHP, std primer. Superb accuracy.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:41 PM
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10 grains of Acc#7, 158 gr LSWC gives,

4" 686__1,175 fps
6" Ruger Security Six__1,292 fps
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Old 08-06-2009, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSQUARED View Post
For velocities above ca 800-900 fps I only use jacketed bullets to prevent leading. I have never been able to successfully drive lead bullets at ca. 1000 fps or above without expereincing leading.
For mild loads with lead bullets my favorite powder is Trail Boss. As a plus it is virtually impossible to double charge a case with Trail Boss. The Hodgdon website has excellent data for both starting and maximum loads.
It doesn't have to be hard to not lead.. We cast our own .44 and .357 bullets out of water dropped straight wheelweights (soft) and push the 175 grain .357 SWCs to 1300 FPS with absolutely no leading whatsoever. The 255 Keith .44 bullets have gone over 1400 with no leading. My suspicion is that lube and proper sizing make more of a difference than anything.I'm using 50/50 white grease and candle wax for lube and it works awesome other than being a little thinner than I'd like, but that is easily remedied by adding a little more wax. Have you tried Tennessee Valley? I've pushed their 158 SWC's around 1500 FPS in my 6'' 586 with no problems.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
For velocities above ca 800-900 fps I only use jacketed bullets to prevent leading. I have never been able to successfully drive lead bullets at ca. 1000 fps or above without experiencing leading.
Mercy. I was running some TVB LSWCs this weekend from a 4" GP-100 at 1400 fps (got to love Lil' Gun! ) without a hint of leading. OTOH, I've also leaded the heck out of guns at just over 900 fps using the same bullet and Green Dot. Even Hornady swaged lead bullets have gotten up over 1200 fps for me w/o leading.

Lots of variables, of course, but you should not have any problem with cast bullets at much higher velocities than this.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSQUARED View Post
For velocities above ca 800-900 fps I only use jacketed bullets to prevent leading. I have never been able to successfully drive lead bullets at ca. 1000 fps or above without expereincing leading.
I need to send you some bullets dude!

I have some H&G #290BB that I drive 1580fps from a Marlin 1894 with no leading at all! There have been others that have driven my bullets above the levels that you post and they haven't experienced leading either.

Probably what has happened is that you purchase your lead bullets and they come in only one size and one hardness. Commercial casters like TVB make them differently than most, you can get harder/softer and bigger/smaller to try in your firearm. With me casting my own, I can do the same thing, hence, I don't have the problems you mentioned with developed loads/bullet combinations.

Did I have to work at it? Yep! Without being able to cast your own, you are always at someone else's mercy. I don't like that idea so I got set up to cast. You may want to do the same. Maybe you don't shoot enough to justify the equipment. That is understandable, buy from Jessie. He will help you develop a load that will work and be cheaper than jacketed.
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357 magnum, 586, 686, commercial, fouling, hornady, m19, m66, model 15, model 19, model 27, primer, ruger, sig arms, solvent, universal

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