I purchased some LSWC bullets, 200 gr, and tried loading some for my 1911. This is my first attempt at non-jacketed bullets. I used the Speer reloading manual and the recommended OAL is 1.185". When I seat the bullet to this length the rim of the bullet is below the rim of the brass leaving an edge. The bullets will not load consistently, about every third one hangs up and crinkles the brass on the leading edge. My brain says to leave the bullets longer to eliminate the rim, but not sure what the results will be. The bullets that cycled and fired were very accurate, so I believe I'm onto something good here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1251072611

The three on the left are unfired, the three on the right show where the brass jammed.

Thanks for any advice or opinions.

Terry

Attached Images

032.JPG (101.2 KB, 2079 views)

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

I have never loaded any LSWCs, but that doesn't even look right! I will be watching to see what the more experienced have to say about this myself.

Sir, your brain is telling you right--seat 'em out farther. A common OAL is 1.25" or so. Thing is, SWC designs differ in nose shape and length, so OAL isn't a hard-and-fast rule.

FWIW, I seat mine so the leading edge of the bullet's forward band is about flush with the case mouth or just a bit proud. So long as they'll still fit and feed through the magazine, this seems to work well.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Here are some pictures of the ones I load. I cast and lube my own. You will notice there are two profiles. That is because one is from a Lee mold and the other from an original H&G.

I still think there is something we are missing in this discussion though. An empty case SHOULD feed in a 1911 if everything is right. Can you give a few more details about your firearm please?

Thats how I load mine.. You can run em a bit longer, say a 1/16th" of the shoulder stickin out.


Keep in mind though, this is all assuming your not running a max load with these. That would change the whole game.

Not very often...

Have you tried it in yours?

+1 I have been in a number of discussions about this. First it will not feed. Second it’s dangerous. You are drastically reducing the free space in the case sending pressures skyward.

.45 acp 200gr LSWC bullets come in many nose shapes so the seating depth is controlled by taper crimping on the first driving band. Most of us like to see about .030-.040’ of lead on the driving band showing when finished. The ones in your photo look like the long nose variety, seat them so a little lead from the driving band is showing. You can also run a test take 10 unprimed cases, size, and prepare them as dummys, seat your bullets, then check them through your pistol..

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I have one of those piece of junk (I don't feel this way, it's just what others say about them) Taurus PT1911s. It cost me $450 brand new and came with two magazines.

The question would better be answered like this: "With which MILSURP 7round magazine do you want me to do it with?" It will do it with all magazines!

Some folks have spent hundreds of dollars on their C**ts and they still won't do it! My lowly Taurus does it right out of the box, no problemo!

As noted, your COAL seems far too short.

Your photo also shows damaged case mouths, however. I see chips in the mouth of at least two of your cartridges; the flare may also not have been eliminated by a crimp.

I suggest you find someone with reloading experience to help you set up your dies.

I taper crimp and leave approximately .030/.045 inch of the shoulder exposed past the lip of the case. Not all magazines feed nor do all pistols chamber SWC configuration bullets consistently. As for cambering an empty case the exercise is somewhat meaningless. The case with a bullet is what I want to chamber each and every time. None the less it’s a nice trick if nothing else.

Unless you’re going to change out the recoil spring rate which the standard is #16 then I’d stay away from minimal powder charge weights. If by chance W231 is being employed 5.7grs would be a good starting point.

Thanks to you all for the feedback. I'm using Unique powder at 5.0 gr. I'll knock these apart and seat them a bit longer. Will the additional dead space in the case cause any problems?

Thanks again for the prompt feedback.

Terry

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

The additional space won't cause any problems.

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NRA Pistol Instructor

I would seat them out to where a little lead is showing on the sides as others have mentioned. That looks like the 200grain swc H&G 68 type mould. Some auto's have trouble with them. You also don't want them to long either. A solution is to remove the barrel from the semiauto and stick one in the barrel and see if they line up properly.
I generally haven't had any problems with this bullet in the 1911 type pistols, but have had some issues in a sig220 and the springfield xd won't accept them in my pistol

5.0 grains of Unique is on the low side. I’d up the charge weight but I’m not you. We each have to do what we feel is best.

For the most part, 200 gr. LSWC .45's are either Hensley and Gibbs#68 design, or a reasonable fascimile thereof. With the true H&G 68, an OAL of about 1.250 works pretty well for most. I am using a lee mold that has a slightly longer nose and I have to seat it at 1.260. Either way, a fingernail's worth of lead above the case mouth is a good place to start.

The bullets I'm using are D&J 200 gr LSWC. I've checked and they measure .650" in length. The Speers manual says 4.9-5.4 gr of Unique and 1.185" OAL. The book qualifies the recommended power charge as being at the low end of things. I'll try a little more powder and seat them above the case as everyone has recommended.

I was sure when I made the first ones they didn't look right, but I'm wasn't sure that they wouldn't work like that. I haven't been at this long enough and don't shoot well enough yet to really start playing with different variations or powder, bullet, etc. I really appreciate all the information and guidance from you all.

Terry

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

as mentioned....the "dead space" left by seating out just a bit further is going to prevent dangerous pressure build up....keep at it..looks like you are well on your way to a great,money saving hobby

OAL is not the criteria with a 200 or 185 LSWC. Shoulder exposure is the criteria. You want about .040" (a thumbnail thickness) exposed on your loaded rounds as a starter. See if it feeds properly in your gun and you might expose the shoulder a little more, as in some of the pix. Crimp should measure .468"-.470" a the edge of the case by the shoulder.

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NCY in the PR of NJ

I agree with all that has been said about loading with about .040 of shoulder above the case neck. I also agree with Skip and believe that an empty case should chamber pretty reliably. Your experience leads me to wonder if the case has been belled too much and/or not crimped enough. I load Oregon Trail or Missouri Bullet 200 gr. LCSWC to an OAL of 1.25 and crimp to .467 to .468. If you do not crimp the case and you are using a "short" bullet you will most likely experience feeding issues.

I hope that helps,

Frank

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sona si latine loqueris .

The point about the empty case is that bullet shape doesn't/shouldn't matter IF your 1911 can repeatably chamber one.

That's the only point other than having an empty case inserted by someone else as a training aid on how to clear a firearm when it "don't go bang."

The ONLY time I have had problems with a 1911 chambering lead bullets is when I have either made them too soft or purchased some that were.

The bullet will hit the inside top of the chamber and because it is too soft will "dent" rather than slide past that point. Then the slide tries to drag the case head end out of the magazine and viola, you have a jamb.

The bullets need to be hard enough to not cause this problem and soft enough to obturate at the lower pressures.

I too think that it could be a combination of problems. Are you sure that this isn't happening when you seat the bullet during the loading cycle rather than when it chambers?

Can you set a bullet on top of your case after it is belled and have it stay there without holding it? If not, you aren't belling enough for the lead bullets and it MAY be causing the problem even before it goes in a gun.

Are the cases all the same brand? Maybe you have some thicker, thinner, shorter or longer cases and every once in a while you have this problem when the bullet is seated.

Listen, most of us have a scrap bin/box/jug where our mistakes end up. And while some won't own up to it, they have done something similar to what I have described at least once, if not more!

There was a time when I reduced the charge and set the driving band flush with the case. This was done to make the finished product look better!!! Looked really good, wouldn't feed period dot com.

I knocked apart the previous batch. I loaded a couple of dozen this afternoon at 5.4 gr (Unique) with an OAL of 1.250". I turned the crimp die down a couple of flats. These look much better with just a slight rim of lead showing above the case, and a better crimp I believe. I'll take these to the range tomorrow and check my progress. Can't help but be better I think.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Terry

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

was there only one other that noticed the three right hand cases in the OP's orriginal post had chewed up case mouths.
Somebody needs to suggest he get with an experienced reloader before he hurts himself.

Not being critical, cause I made mistakes when I started. Expecially when I didn't know the pic was jacketed not lead in the spear manual. And even though I backed off 10% it was still double the load.

Please get with someone, if your are a novice at reloading. Nothing personal and don't take this as an attack. It's a matter of your own safety.

I did.

Right after noting the damaged case mouths.

I’m going to disagree with the empty case chambering be a good indicator that all is right in the world in regards to chambering. I have more than my fair share of semiautomatic pistols in 45ACP. Some chamber an empty case and others don’t. Those that do chamber an empty case may only do it with a certain brand of magazine. I have a Colt and Springfield that both do not chamber empty cases all the time but feed 185Gr thru 230Gr bullet weights flawlessly.

225Gr truncated being loaded on a Dillon 550RL. The case flare is about what you want.

One may zoom in on the picture and see that the cases are mixed head stamps. I haven’t had a problem in that regard. I run cases by batch lots and know the number of firings that each case as be subjected to.

Dummy me, I thought that was what he was doing here on the forum!

How deep you seat a bullet for the .45 ACP depends upon the bullet and your chamber. Once you discover what the gun will accept, regulate the powder charge accordingly. There is a place in this world for round nose and truncated cone bullets and that is in the .45 ACP. No leading shoulder of lead to hit the rifling and hold the slide out of battery. Any thing other than this is an invitation to malfunction and disaster.

Dennis;
Not one of my 1911 style pistols will chamber an empty case. In fact I can make a nice jammed up case like the OPs photo by trying.
It’s hard to see what’s going on in there because if you release the slide slowly the round nosedives and a stoppage occurs. A couple of them with ramped barrels feed somewhat better slowly and you see the bullets ogive hitting the ramp and riding up. If going slowly they tend to go high and hit the top of the barrel.
1911s are not feed problem free, I have not had problems with 3rd gen S&W, but I think that is because I have sorted out the 1911 problems.
That is why I suggested he load a few dummies and dry feed them.
Roger

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I load a 200 swc H&G 68 hard cast bullet from Keade out of Dallas. His bullets are very weight consistant at about 197.5 gr. Loaded with 4.2 of Titegroup at a length of 1.250 they are both very accurate and reliable. They feed perfectly in a kart barrel. And will shoot 10 shot groups at 7/8" at 25 yards from a ransom rest. You can go up to 4.8 gr if you like a stiffer load, but 4.2 works best for my gun. Good luck and be careful..
P.S. Get yourself a rim sizeing die and use it as a first step after cleaning and before the loading process begins. You might also invest in a case gage. your loaded rounds should drop in and freely fall out when turned over.

Yep, all 5 of my 1911s will feed empties. As to the OP, yes, your bullets are far too short. Somewhere between 1.240"-1.260" willl work in most 45s.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Just one more thing I forgot to mention. Be careful picking up brass found at the range. Hi pressure defense loads fired from a Glock can be unsafe to reload as Glock barrels do not fully support the base of the case. The case may bulge or belly just above the rim. This weakens the brass and even after it is re sized it is still weak. If you were to reload another high pressure load and fire it in a Glock again you may experience a case failure which could explode the grip frame and cause severe injury to the person firing the pistol. Remember better safe than sorry when reloading. If you have any doubt about the quality of your brass , just discard it. TonyR

I think the suggestion was meant ON-SITE assistance, to see exactly what the OP was doing as he reloaded.

Several have mentioned the three damaged cases on the right in my picture in the original post... those were the FTF that brought me here in the first place. I realize that they were damaged and just included them to prove the point. I'm pretty sure they were damaged when they hung in the pistol, not when I loaded them.

Of 24 or so rounds attempted that day all but three cycled and fired OK. The three damaged cases have been thrown away. After I knocked the others apart, all were checked for similar damage and none found. The new reloads were also inspected for similar damage and none found.

I appreciate and thank you all for your concern.

My brother thought that possibly the lower leading edge of the barrel needed to be polished or slightly rounded to help eliminate the problem, but these were the only rounds to date that that I had any problem with, factory or reloads. I anticipate that loading the bullets a little longer and eliminating the case mouth sticking up beyond the bullet that the problem will be solved. I hope to shoot these modified ones this afternoon and will report back.

Thanks again.

Terry

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

Here goes controversy, IMO the feed ramp of your barrel should not be polished, that job should be left to experts.
Especially do not let anyone who does not have lots of experience near it with their handy Dremel Tool, changing the ramp angle can really screw up a self feeder.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Getting started in reloading for a semi-auto with lead bullets is like raising teenagers -- you are glad when its over. I am referring only to the getting started part of reloading. You never get over teenagers.

You have received excellent advice. LSWC bullets are like pickup trucks -- same name but not the same. Nose length varies, overall cartridge length varies, and chamber pressure varies. You really only learn by reading, ALWAYS MORE THAN ONE DATA SOURCE, judging results, and carefully comparing performance. I have 45s that successfully feed and fire anything put in the magazine (that is a safe load) with acceptable accuracy, and match 45s that feed only H&G #68 style (long nosed LSWC) or RN bullets flawlessly with incredible accuracy.

That's why we call it a hobby. Be careful, ask others, and keep trying. My next challenge is to load jacketed 185 grain match SWC, with 2,000 in the box I will get a lot of practice getting it right.

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S&WHF 366

I agree. I got the "Smith & Wesson Shop Manual" for $25 that ended up costing me the price of a new hammer and trigger, well over $130!

Leave the smithing to the experts.

You shouldn't need to fool with it though. That firearm should feed those bullets. I have had a S&W 1911 and it took everything I could feed it!

There isn't anything wrong with it.

+1 smithc, Those bullets appear to me to be H&G 68, style. It is a very rare self-loader which will not feed them.
They were designed to contact the 1911 feed ramp at the same point as a 230 FMJ, John Browning would smile.
My only problem ever with them was seating them just a bit long for the SIG magazines. They were well within specs. But the nose shape together with the magazine design, required me to seat about .020” lower than had been my habit.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I shoot SWC of different configurations and weights. They’ll work some times its more art than science. I’m not into powder puff loads.

I took a couple of dozen of the corrected rounds to the range this afternoon. I loaded and fired 24 rounds, no FTF, all fired without incident. The extra length and more importantly eliminating the leading edge or the case made a big difference.

I had no intention of getting after the gun with a dremel tool. I paid good money for this pistol and can't soon afford another one. I wasn't convinced the feed ramp was the problem anyway as everything else I had tried loaded and fired fine.

I bought 1000 of these bullets so time to get busy. Now that the big bugs are out I can start fine tuning my skills loading and shooting.

I appreciate all the feedback and support.

Terry

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

Sir, good on ya. Glad you got it sorted out.

Semper Fi,

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

For Smith Crazy

I like the looks of the SWC in the picture. The middle one loaded in an AR case. What design is it?

Thanks,
Skids

Skids,
The one smack dab in the middle of the picture is from an H&G #502 mold. It weighs in at just a tad over 240gr with my alloy. It is a Keith design and he has some real stout load for it in Sixguns.

The one next to it on the right is the Lyman bullet that is designed to be 250gr. Not sure of the number of the mold as it is Paul5388's.

Hope this helps.

Terry,
In loading LSWC's I have found that the base to shoulder dimension is the relavant issue. Your 200 gr. SWC has a profile similar to the old Star 185 gr. LSWCHP for which a 0.935" base to shoulder length provided excellent functioning. That being said if you have a barrel which has not been relived for SWC's you will not obtain reliable functioning.
Tony

I just checked the LSWC I have, using an over-all length of 1.250 results in a base to shoulder length of .930". I've loaded about 700 at that OAL, and fired around 250 rounds. A couple of FTF, but overall happy with the rounds, and they're very accurate. When I load next time I'll leave them a snicker longer.

Thanks for the input.

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Terry, SW1911DK, SW625JM

"The one next to it on the right is the Lyman bullet that is designed to be 250gr. Not sure of the number of the mold as it is Paul5388's."

It looks like the Lyman 454424. They may have renumbered it to something else. I like the bullet and cast and shoot a lot of them. I used to size them to both .454" and .452" for guns with different size cylinder throats, but have just sized them all to .454" for years now and they shoot well in everything.

Terry,
I landed on the 0.935" base to shoulder length after some experimentation using the 185 gr. Star LSWCHP. You can experiment and see which dimension provides the best accuracy and reliability with your bullet.
tony

I have always see such explanations of "set your taper crimp die until the ctimp is just right". Where is "just right"? First of all, set your seat die high enough so that when you seat the bullet to desired depth (for your gun) there is no roll crimp applied. Make sure you have purchased a taper crimp die and use it after the seating step. Before starting your loading sequence, measure the case thickness ot the casr mouth. If yoy reload you most surely gave a caliper maybe even a tubing thickness micrometer. Use the knife edge tip portion of the caliper and measure the case mouth thickness. Multiply that by 2 and add to the measured bullet diameter. That is the basic uncrimped case mouth size. If you chamber this round you may exprtience bullet set back. At your taper crimp die make sure it is initially set high enough as to not mske contact with case when ramis raised. Start screwing die down until contact. Now with caliper, you are goingto alternately remove cartridge, measure case mouth dismeter at bulleg case junction and screw die down until you see about .002 decrease in case mouth diameter. This is your crimp setting. May need more or less based on what you see. (Setback etc.).
All of this is predicated on sorting your brass for case length similarity. Once sorted, you dont have to do it again as they will generally change equally within a group. If cases vary considerably in length, the taper crimp will vary as well. I sort into groups that are within .003 to -.004 of each other. If you change case groups you change crimp die setting. If you dont sort, guess what, this is inconsistency which means unexplained flyers, group size variations and maybe even feed issues. Reloading is a precise process, take the time to do it justice. If you just want to blast and make noise you can get by with doing less. Or maybe just buy some fire crackers.

+1 on post #38;

The SWC design needs to fit the mag. and feed up the ramp.
A lot more problems than the old RN Ball ammo, in working right.

As for measurements on bullet cylinder (body) stick out, from the case,
you can use the height of a Dime for starters.

A lot of Pistols need the correct OAL and FPS to work.
I gave up trying them in my 9mm but the RN coated worked well.
Just that the WC makes a nice hole in targets that can be seen
and scored easier.

He probably came to his senses since 2009.