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  #51  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:36 PM
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Hello once more.

The site that this link goes to really does not show any useful information about technical data on the .380" Mk.I Cartridge (200 grain lead version of the .380" revolver cartridge), or the later .380" Mk.IIz (178 grain ball (aka Full Metal Jacket) version) for that matter. But it does show an original .380" Mk.I Cartridge and photo of the .380" Mk.I headstamp. I don't think I have ever seen an original .380" Mk.I cartridge in "real life" LOL. Anyway, thought this might be interesting to look at.

As for the later .380" Mk.IIz cartridge, I think I read somewhere on the internet that Fiocchi makes a .38 S&W Cartridge with a 178 grain metal jacketed bullet?, has anyone here heard about that? I looked a bit online and could not find anywhere that actually sold this cartridge, if indeed they actually do make it?

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Mark
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  #52  
Old 04-17-2010, 06:24 PM
LouisianaMan LouisianaMan is offline
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I looked at Fiocchi USA and they make a 145 or 146g FMJ, as well as a lead bullet of the same weight. Nothing bigger, though.
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  #53  
Old 05-27-2010, 10:44 AM
solvability solvability is offline
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Default 38 SW - Webley Mk IV

I just received 200gr Lead at .360 and want to load to safe specs.

If I understand I should be ok with these two.

2.5 Unique with 200g Lead

3.0 W231 with 200g Lead

Is this about right - as top breaks go the Webley is fairly strong.

I am really looking to find a regulated load for the factory sights.

Thanks very much - excellent thread.
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  #54  
Old 05-31-2010, 05:23 PM
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Default .38 S&W Bullet Diameter

Several years ago, I got a sack with a hundred or so rounds of loose ancient .38 S&W ammo at a gun show for a couple of bucks. In it were all sorts of old headstamps, including UMC, USCCo, REM-UMC, WRACo, and Peters. I fired some and got a high percentage of duds. A few that did fire had been loaded with black powder (no mistaking them). Some had significant click-bang hangfires. I pulled the lead bullets from the duds with an inertia puller, and miked their diameters. I found that, contrary to published data, they were not .360", but rather .356" to .358". To me, this indicates that the typical .356" to .357" diameter bullets as used in the .38 Special should be fine for loading the .38 S&W.

Most, but not all, of the old cases had balloon heads. Primer pockets in some of those were a little smaller in diameter than modern small pistol primers, as they could not be seated in the balloon head pockets.

While I have a .38 S&W DA 4th model, I do not shoot it often as it is in near-mint condition. I do have an H&R Defender breaktop of relatively recent (1964) manufacture with a 4" barrel, which is like new, and is a really fun gun to shoot. It groups well at 15 yards. My pet (and only) load uses a 125 grain cast .358" diameter lead bullet with a sort-of truncated cone nose. I seat the bullet to the base of the cone. I use 3.5 grains of Unique. This load shoots very well in the H&R, well enough that I see no benefit in spending the time and effort to optimize further, as the H&R is not a match revolver (but not bad in the accuracy department).

I do not have a .38 S&W die set. I use a .38 Super carbide sizing die and 9mm Luger neck expanding and seating dies. I do not crimp bullets, and have encountered no problems with bullets backing out under recoil with my loads.

Last edited by DWalt; 05-31-2010 at 05:41 PM. Reason: Misspelling
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  #55  
Old 05-31-2010, 08:46 PM
LouisianaMan LouisianaMan is offline
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Solvability,
I'm no ballistician, but your 3.0g of Win231 with 200g bullet seems a bit warm to me. My load (see post #31) is 2.7g, which gives 639fps over my chrono. In fact, I've gone down to 2.6g, with very little reduction in vel but perhaps a slightly cooler pressure. Brit specs were somewhere in the 600-650fps range, so my loads are right in that range.

I've read that Win231 may vary significantly from lot to lot, but if you don't have a chrono to verify vels, I'd recommend you stick with 2.5g - 2.6g. ****NOTE: even my loads are above published max loads!**** Lyman 49th calls for a min of 1.6g and max of 1.8g; the latter gives 550fps from a 5 1/4" universal test receiver. The pressure quoted was about 11,300 (PSI, I think, rather than CUP). That seems to be intentionally mild, in light of the weaker top breaks still in circulation. Perhaps you can start with 2.0g, then work up a bit until it's shooting to your sights.

DWalt,
Enjoyed your discussion of the old cartridges! Your results with bullet diameters reflect what I've read in some other threads. In Speer 13, they specifically stated that they used .38SPL bullets @ .358, and noted they got "acceptable accuracy." Don't know what that means, but I presume it's adequate for plinking and defense, i.e. it basically hits where it's aimed, but isn't a target load.

Do you happen to have any of those old loads still around? I'd especially be interested in discussing any of the old Super Police 200g bullet loads, if you have any. I presume most are 145-146g bullets? This summer I'm writing up my .38 S&W "tests," and would love to be able to include a photo identifying your old loads--of course I would attribute it to you, if you're willing to lend a photo.

I wish S&W would make a "Classic" version of the "New Departure" lemon-squeezer, with modern steels & tolerances and perhaps a slightly beefier lock. Especially if we could get a 200g lead flatpoint load to shoot from it, it would be a very concealable pistol with mild report, mild recoil, but the ability to smash a decent-sized hole thru a BG.
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  #56  
Old 06-01-2010, 01:56 PM
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Default .38 S&W Bullets

I do still have some of the old .38 S&W cartridges I kept as specimens. As is to be suspected, they are grungy-looking, but not corroded. All of the bullets I pulled were, as I remember, 146 grains. Incidentally, I loaded and fired those pulled bullets in .38 Super cases (light load), so I no longer have them. The cases from the cartridges that fired, I reloaded with my 3.5 grain Unique/125 grain bullet combination (after cleaning), except for those that had balloon heads. They reload fine. What type of pictures do you want?

If you're into odd S&W ammunition, a year or so ago I found at a gun show some new primed .38 S&W empty cases from Western, packed in full boxes of 50 that indicated, from the label, manufacture in the immediate Post-WWII era (Western Division of Olin Industries). Not so unusual maybe, but the cases were very reddish coppery looking, not at all like the color of brass. I didn't buy any, as the guy wanted too much for them (I think $20/box). I've not seen any modern ammo with copper cases.

Last edited by DWalt; 06-01-2010 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Misspelling
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  #57  
Old 07-31-2010, 03:46 PM
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Default resurrecting the thread

I was fortunate to obtain a 200 grain .362 diameter 6 cavity Lee mold that had been ordered ,I suspect,from a Cast Boolits group buy

I originally bought it to load for my Enfield No2..My first loads were good,no signs of pressure..using Herco..range listed was 3.0 to 3.3 grains.the ammunition shot to point of aim at 15 yards,which was nice

I didn't have enough crimp,and have increased this..

I have since acquired a S&W regulation police in 38 S&W, and have a Victory model in 38 S&W as well on the way...
I'm going to drop back on the powder load for these, and will
publish chrono results when I have them...

No problem seating the 200 grain to correct OAL

results to follow..
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  #58  
Old 07-31-2010, 08:56 PM
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Swabbie,
Thanks for the resurrection!

I got a nice Victory Model .38 S&W recently but haven't fired it yet. I expect the 193-200g bullets will shoot well in it. Although I think it could probably deal with higher vels than I've developed heretofore in my J frames, I'll stick with the same loads to avoid mix-ups.

At some point I plan to write up all my results, but this summer has worked out far different than anticipated :-)
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  #59  
Old 02-10-2011, 03:55 PM
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Default any one use a 95 gr boolet

i got a box of .359 95 gr lead boolets was concedering useing in H&R 38 S&W
any one got a smokless recipe for light boolets
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  #60  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Mike Bloh Mike Bloh is offline
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Thanks to all contributors to this thread.
I recently acquired a Webley Mark III in .38SW.
First test with Remmington .38 SW 148 gr LRN.
Target at 7 meters, group was approximately 3 inches.
But this was my first time with this revolver.
I've purchased the Lee die set and will probably purchase a .361 mold from Lyman (358156) 150gr/.361.
Reloaded a few cases with a 158grLRN/3gr Unique/CCI. Results pending.
I too will be on the lookout for other pieces in this caliber. This Webley is well used.
Best wishes.

Last edited by Mike Bloh; 02-24-2011 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Added comment
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  #61  
Old 02-26-2011, 01:54 AM
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All I've ever seen in 358156 have probably been a little small in diameter for what you're wanting. It might be better, and less costly, to look at the Lee 365-95-1R, which is a Makarov bullet, even if it is just half the weight you're looking for.


That 358156 is also going to use a gas check, which increases cost and may not even grab the rifling.

Another option would be to use a Lee in .357" and lap it to what size you need. If you mess it up, it didn't cost much and you can go another direction. Aluminum is a lot easier to work than harder metals, but a pitted iron mold could maybe clean up to the size you want.
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  #62  
Old 02-26-2011, 08:21 AM
LouisianaMan LouisianaMan is offline
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Default "Beagle" your mold, if necessary

Mike,

Let me add an option to what Paul has just said. If you need to increase cast bullet diameter by a few thousandths of an inch, simply "beagle" the mold. Check out Cast Boolits website for tons of info on the subject, but here's the gist: cut tiny strips of aluminum foil and place them between and below the cavities in your mold. This will increase diameter and the very slight out-of-roundness is not a problem. Play with it a little, and occasionally you'll have to fiddle with getting a piece of foil back in place, but it works. Simple, fast, effective.

As for bullet weights, I suggest you consider something in the 180-200g range, which is these British service revolvers were designed for. Lyman's 358430 is widely used in this application, as it has the right weight and a blunt, round nose similar to the original .38/200. Generally speaking, lighter bullets will shoot lower. In my modern S&W Mods. 32-1 and 33-1, which were regulated for 145-46g bullets, I find that 158's still shoot very close to the sights, and that 200's are noticeably higher. I've never tried light bullets, as I'm generally a fan of the "heavy/slow" approach. I find they have less blast & flash, plus they penetrate very nicely. Felt recoil is more of a shove than a snap. I'm shooting my new-to-me Enfield and my newly-returned S&W Victory for the first time later today or tomorrow. Wish me luck! :-)

Last edited by LouisianaMan; 02-26-2011 at 08:25 AM.
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  #63  
Old 02-26-2011, 10:06 AM
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Use some aluminum foil tape for A/C joints that has glue on one side to beagle. It used to be available from Harbor Freight in a much larger roll than you'll need to use to beagle, but it has lots of other uses. I sent some to Chunkum (RIP) for that purpose and it worked to perfection.
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  #64  
Old 02-26-2011, 12:26 PM
LouisianaMan LouisianaMan is offline
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Thanks, Paul, for providing the crucial part that I was forgetting--the adhesive-backed tape! Brain glitched on that, and I was just remembering how I had to fiddle around with the stuff after the adhesive gave up the ghost.

And yes, this kind of tape is available at your hardware store.

Thanks to all, and happy casting!
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  #65  
Old 07-05-2013, 04:33 AM
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The Lyman 45th Edition Reloading Handbook lists some very heavy loads for the .38S&W. None over 158gr in weight. I am very surprised by the Unique loads for the 150gr 358430.
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