148 Grain HBWC Defense Load

[jimmyj]

Hi:
In the present era "Ammo Shortage" I recalled in the 1960-1970 era a 148 grain HBWC was loaded HB out for defense in a 2" barrel.
Does anyone recall the powder and charge used ?
Thanks,
Jimmy

[silentflyer]

Speer # 8 list 2.2 to 2.7 of Bullseye for .38 special, and 3 to 3.5 for .357, we used to load them "backwards" like a big hollow point made a quarter size mushroom when shot in to a wet phone book.

[11e40]

2.7 -2.8 - 3.0 grs. bullseye seated flush with the case mouth normally works well also . hth.

[loc n load]

Used to load them inverted for my 2" 49.....2.7-2.8 bullseye, with the bullet skirt protruding a bit.....also had a 2400 load for them ( did not load that for j frames), am hesitant to post that, but it worked just fine also in 2" K frames.....and they do expand considerably...as noted above.....have several recovered from wet paper pulp.....

[Nevada Ed]

In my M49 snub, 3.1grs of Bullseye with a f-100 primer gives me 693 fps and 158 ft/lbs of energy.

3.3grs of RedDot with a cci primer gives me 775 fps with 197 ft/lbs, the maximum that I have shot the 148gr bullet at, so far.
This load has more energy than the Winchester 110gr Silver-Tip standard load at snuby speeds of 875 fps, that I got with 4.9grs of RedDot
in my snub nose.

If you want 850 fps you might need to load with Unique powder ? I never used Unique with this light of a lead bullet but some state it is the cats meyow for maximum SD loadings.

[OKFC05]

I have tried increasing the load under HBWC and going to slower powders, and I attest you will start blowing the front half off the HBWC, and risk leaving the skirt in the barrel. It becomes a safety hazard if you go far enough.

If you want to push the speed use a DEWC and cast it harder than usual, and that will prevent blowing the bullet apart or smearing lead down the barrel.

[moxie]

Guys,

With the 148 HBWC, pointed either way, with about 3.0 grs. BE, you're going to get only about 700fps, if that. Out of a snubbie it's probably in the 600s. Hardly, a good defense load.

And remember, HBWCs are swaged soft lead and may, as noted above, blow out.

If you must use wadcutters, get some cast DEWCs, and load to a decent speed. RNLs would be fine.

[ozo]

I have been loading them backwards for quite awhile. I have had excellent accuracy results.
Berry's came out with a plated HBWC for the .32 and the .38
some time ago. One thing that caught my immediate attention, on Berry's website, concerning the .38 HBWC, was a warning to load them for an 800fps minimum application.
Anyway, whichever 'direction' I load them, I use the same data for that weight wadcutter and the same OAL. That being said, I very, very rarely seat my wadcutters all the way flush with the case mouth.....usually approx 1/8" to 3/16" out.

[ozo]

P.S. As far as speed goes in the .32 H&R magnum, using 3.5gr W231 in a 4" GP100 it's slightly above 900fps using an inexpensive Competition Electronics ProChrono chronograph, and I don't have the numbers handy for the .327 FedMag with 5.0gr W231 but it is considerably MUCH faster.....all without any separation or abnormal deformity whatsoever. I also have excellent results from a S&W 2" model 632 and a 3" model 632 and killer results from a 5.5" Ruger Blackhawk, 10" T/C barrel, and 17" T/C barrel, although I run the heat way up on the .327 in the rifle barrel. My 67-5 F-Comp PC shoots the 148gr Berry's like the PRO that it is, and without any handy numbers I would guess around 1000fps in +P range. Still, no deformities. Wet phone books, water jugs, water barrels, gelatin, etc.
This has been my experience anyway. I have no qualms about either of these for SD....other than maybe a penetration factor thru heavy denim/wool clothing, but I still would never want to be shot by one.

edit: As we speak, I am also working on some .38/.357 loads [Berry's 148gr HBWC, 125gr Montana Gold HP, Berry's 125gr plated HP, an Elmer Keith heavy lead, etc] for the sweet little Ruger model 77/357 that just came in from Bud's yesterday afternoon.......and it is tearing me up not to walk out on the porch and shoot 'something' thru it !!!!!!! I just don't have a round optimized for an 18.5" barrel laying around since I used up what I had yesterday in the levers......anticipating the 'new arrival'....life is rough !

[358156hp]

It appears to be time for this to resurface again:
Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter | Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting | GrantCunningham.com

I wouldn't go out of my way to locate HBWCs if regular wadcutters are readily available to you. Also consider doing a search on this board for "wadcutters". We discuss this topic every couple of weeks or so. There's a lot of information here.

[Nevada Ed]

I had a picture of what a "Backwards" 148 wcHB looked like when it hit a body and also bone............. but it can't be located..........must have lost it when the old PC died last year........... Bummer.
Another Guns & Ammo test ( Dynamite ) had 38 +P test and the author tossed in his 148 "HP" load but it did not turn out as well as he had hoped.

From what I have seen and read over the years, I would go with the wcBB, for any fps I could load and not have to worry about loosing my skirt in public.

They also tumble but at short SA distances...no big deal. Inside 25 feet, right?

[John P.]

Hotter loadings loosing the skirt in the barrel always concerned me with the HBWC's loaded backwards. Midway has boxes of 500 Speer 158 grain SWCHP's for about $42. I have lubed these with Lee Alox, and loaded them working up to 5.4 grains of Unique. The load duplicates the FBI load.

If I were to use a WC for defense, I would use a DEWC, lube with Alox and load it hot. Many of the older Detectives I have know loaded their J frames with standard WC loads.

Good luck

[358156hp]

I wouldn't worry much about reverse loaded HBWCs losing their skirts. This only happens when they're overloaded in the conventional orientation, and the skirt expands against the bore causing drag, while the heavier nose gets tired of waiting for the skirt to keep up and takes off on its own.

[hotrod150]

I don't think losing the skirt would be an issue with reverse-loaded HBWC's. BTW I started a thread in this forum not long ago about an old gun magazine article I read about a reversed HBWC load using a lead BB in the cavity, which improved bullet stability. I just went back & bumped it to the top in case anyone wants to review it. The lonked Ed Harris article is a good one if you're interested in wadcutters.
I warmly handoad the Speer swaged SWC-HP as both a practice and self-defense load. I like the way Speer lubes them all over with a waxy sort of coating- I'm curious why it would be advantageous to lube them again with Alox? I also warmly handload hardcast 148 gr DEWC's for the same use.

[gwpercle]

Terry Wieland has done a nice story on this very subject , Self-Defense Loads in a Time of Drought, Aug. 2013 issue Handloader Magazine. Tested 38 special , inverted hollow base wadcutter, in a J-frame S&W , 2 inch barrel, velocities were chronographed as fired from the 2 in. barrel, bullets were fired into a box of packed newsprint ( not stated if paper was wet or dry ) assuming dry newsprint, at 5 yards.

Results, all loads using Bullseye powder and 148 hbwc ( no brand given )
3.2 grs. 724 fps -no expansion
3.3 grs. 740 fps - slight expansion
3.4 grs 767 fps - expanded to 5/8 inch dia.
3.5 fps 801 fps -good mushroom, .715 inch dia. retained weight 144 grains....THE WINNER

No mention was made of accuracy but he shot them all into a bullet box at 5 yards. no mention of keyholing either.
I was glad to see this article, I wanted to try this and after reading all my books and etc. , I came to the assumption that 2.8 grs. of Bullseye would give me 810 fps, and it might in a 6 inch barrel, but this information proves 3.5 grains is what is needed. At least I had the 800 fps velocity right.

I got Bullseye now the HBWC quest is on. I been looking on local dealer's shelves, but no luck so far.

Gary

[hotrod150]

I researched this kind of load online a little. I discovered that Magtech makes a promising HBWC and sells it as a component. It is hollow-based but the hollow is not as cylindrical as the normal HBWC, more of a cone-shaped cavity. Maybe not as good for expansion but it might be less inclined to yaw as often reported with reversed wadcutter loads. Right side up, they also have some promise for loading up pretty warm without having the skirts blow off. Unfortunatelythey're pretty spendy- like $25 for a bag of 100. And like most other handloading components (and for that matter, ammo) they're currently pretty much unavailable.

[Nevada Ed]

I ran across some old 1974 data of loads being used by the LE back then and here are the results of the bullets energy that they fired into a gel pack using a model 15 4" K frame.

158 LRN ........ 760 +/- ....... 75 ft/lbs of energy
200 LRN ........ Factory ........85
158 Hi-Vel ....................... 135
148 Full Load 850fps ........ 145
110 +P+ ........................... 260

Interesting that the 148 had more energy than the 158 Hi-vel loading. They stated the 158 LRN had minimal energy due to it not expanding and "Zipping" through the gel with a lot of its velocity still intact.
Looking at the data, I would hope the Hi-Vel was of some type of swc design but I can't confirm this. As for the +P+, it was probably the "Old style" SJhp design with the lead tip, which probably gave a heck of a mushroom, back in those days.
This sheds a lot of light on why a lot of BG's were shot with 148 "Target ammo" , since a few forgot to empty their guns and replace it with the "Widow makers"..........that was standard issue.

[hotrod150]

I don't think the bullet energy figures havdanything to do with how much energy went into the gel (or not). Energy figures are a calculation using weight and velocity which makes light fast bullets look better than heavy slow bullets. Old-timers favored "knock-down power" or momentum calcs which make the heavy bullets come out much better compared to lightweights.
weight x velocity squared = energy
weight x velocity= momentum
The last is what is used to figure "power factor" for the various shooting sports which have a minimum power requirement.

[hotrod150]

Speaking of wadcutter loads, I had the idea a while back to load up some full-power swaged wadcutters. A full-power soft wadcutter ought to give the penetration & striking power of a hardcast one (like Buffalo Bore's 150 gr), but also give at least the possibility of some expansion to- the best of both worlds. Unfortunately HBWC's aren't suitable for full power loads due to the danger of blowing the skirts off, and soft solid wadcutters are unavailable or at least hard to come by since Speer quit producing their 148 gr BBWC. So for me it's still either the 158 gr LSWC-HP or the 148 gr hardcast WC.

[Nevada Ed]

Keeping the 148gr Lhbwc under 850 and maybe 800 fps to be on the safe side, no matter how you flip the bullet, I would think that a SLOW lead 158 SWC standard or HP would at least give you deep penetration, where the 148gr might stop at the breast bone or minimal penetration if a rib is hit.
The human skin, muscle and tendons will slow a light bullet down faster than a heavy bullet and the large bearing surface of the bullet also slows the bullet down faster than a pointed bullet.
Any one that shoots steel pellets at ducks or geese, knows what surface area of a pellet can mean to penetration. Size and velocity work hand in hand to get things right.

It still boils down to .................
can you hit the target with two QUICK shots at eight feet?
Well, can you ?

[LoboGunLeather]

Back in the 1970's we used remanufactured ammo (factory reloads) for range qualifications. 148-grain HBWC at modest velocities. Occasionally there would be a few rounds found with the hollow base loaded forward. No problems noted and accuracy was good at 50 feet (indoor range).

One of our plainclothes officers kept his Model 36 loaded with those rounds and was engaged in a shoot out with an armed bad guy at pointblank range. Medical examiner (very experienced with gunshot wounds) said it was the most devastating handgun wound he'd ever seen. Lower abdomen hit, massive internal damage, suspect dropped and died almost immediately.

I experimented with these loads in .38 Special quite a bit. Bullseye charges of about 2.8 grains seemed to work quite well. Very controllable, good accuracy at shorter ranges (never tried any longer ranges, as this was intended as a close range defensive load for short-barreled revolvers). Never attempted any magnum loads, or hotrod .38 Special loads, because these soft swaged lead bullets will cause serious leading when subjected to intense heat and pressure.

At one point I had my machinist nephew turn out a die for my lubri-sizer machine that would turn the hollow base into a semi-round nose, which made it much easier to load from speedstrips or speedloaders.

There are much better defensive loads available, more so now than 30 years ago. I still like the Federal .38 Spl. +P 158-grain SWC-HP (so-called "FBI load"). A good 125-grain to 140-grain JHP in .38 Spl. +P also looks like a good choice for close range personal defense. Speer Gold Dot ammo has impressed me in just about every caliber I've tried, with excellent accuracy and good "paper ballistics" (I haven't gotten into chronographs or ballistic gel testing).

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to carry some good hard cast SWC 150-160 grain loads. Probably won't expand much, if at all, but the bullets can be counted on to stay in one piece and penetrate well in just about anything. Since it looks like we will all have to get back into handloading seriously if we want to have ammo supplies, this is probably how I will proceed for .38 Specials.

[hotrod150]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

....I would think that a SLOW lead 158 SWC standard or HP would at least give you deep penetration, where the 148gr might stop at the breast bone or minimal penetration if a rib is hit.....

Do you really think there's gonna be that much difference between the 158 & the 148? That's only about 7% lighter. I do think the lack of penetration might be an issue with the lighter faster 125 & 135 gr JHP ammo that's so popular now-- lighter weight plus maybe too violently expanding (and possible fragmenting) might result in a lack of penetration.
I like a heavier bullet, 148-158 gr seems about right. The soft 158 SWC-HP (FBI load) is a good one, but it seems like in spite of the sharp shoulder the pointy nose on the SWC might tend to slip in like a round-nose bullet instead of punch in like a flat-nose. I keep thinking that a soft solid full WC driven at about 850 would give good penetration AND maybe some moderate expansion too- the best of both worlds. Unfortunately Speer discontinued their BBWC so I'm about SOL, other than maybe a soft cast WC. I don't cast my own "boolits" (who came up with THAT? ) so I'm stuck with what is available commercially.
BTW I really like the waxy lube coating that Speer puts on their SWC-HP-- very clean to work with and it seems like it would be a lot more effective than just solid lube in a grease groove(s).

[hotrod150]

I recently loaded up some 158 gr Speer swaged SWC-HP's over 5.0 gr W231. I'm sure it's safe but I got to thinking that it might be a bit too much for my j-frames (esp my old airweight Chief), so I thought I'd try an experiment by cutting them down to full wadcutters. Couldn't set up my buddy's lathe to properly hold them due to the case rim, so using a clothespin clamped in a vise I hacksawed off the noses then squared them up with a file. Crude, I know, but they came out pretty good and I think the base is more critical than the nose as far as accuracy. I weighed one unloaded bullet I so modified and it came in at about 133 grains, so I figure these oughta go out of my snubbies at between 950 & 1000 fps. Lighter than I like but the non-HP design ought to give sufficient penetration, and between the velocity and the flat nose they ought to do some damage. They might even expand a bit! I haven't shot them yet. I might make up some wetpack & see how they look after shooting.

[Forrest r]

Hands down the most versatile hbwc is a bonded core jacketed hbwc. They are extremely easy to make, can weigh anything from 75gr to 200gr & are flat out mid-evil on whatever they get a hold of.

They are just as accurate as their swagged or cast lead counterparts but can easily do warp speed. Some 148gr jacketed hbwc's for the 38spl/357.




Some 38spl & 44spl jacketed hbwc's that were turned around to make huge hp's & shot out of 2" bbl'd snub nosed revolvers (3 38spl's on left & 4 44spl's on right).

[hotrod150]

Nevada Ed asked me to post a photo of my 133 gr sawed-off wadcutters. Here's one of (left to right) a modified bullet, a loaded "hacksaw" round, and another round loaded with a hardcast 148 gr DEWC for comparison. I would have included an unloaded DEWC for comparison too but I don't have any unloaded ones left.

[troutman]

Forrest r: How did you make those?

[Nevada Ed]

Very nice job.............
almost look like factory bullets.

Those turned out a lot better than I pictured in my mind.