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  #1  
Old 01-31-2010, 10:59 PM
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Default Model No 1 First issue Tip Up first type

Hi new member here. I have a very old Smith and Wesson Model No 1 First issue Tip Up first type in really good shape (only 200 made). Serial number 149. The people who had it kept it for home defense.

It has brass frame and some engraveing. Short barrel and 7 shot cylinder. Has ivory grips. only writing is pat numbers on cylinder. I want to sell this gun and want to know how to find buyers.

Thanks for your help.

jim

PS I do collect Smiths but not this old.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:55 AM
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Hi and Welcome to the Forum. Nice these are the first Smith's made. I'm sure if you put it for sale in the Classified section of this forum someone will jump on it Good Luck...

Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:58 AM
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Would I have better luck on gunbroker in getting what the gun is worth?

jim
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:03 AM
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That gun might be worth $5000 to $15000 depending on condition so do some research before you sell it is all..

Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:19 AM
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Just Jim, if your gun is really a S&W Model one, 1st issue, 1st type, it's a super rare gun. Known examples can be counted on one hand. One of them, in average condition, just sold at the Las Vegas winter antique gun show for $40,000. Condition affects value, however in the case of these super rare guns, there are buyers for any condition. I suggest you have an expert examine your gun to be sure what is original & what may have been replaced, before placing it on the market, so you are sure what your are selling is the real item. Good luck, Ed #15
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:53 AM
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The No.1,1st,1st is one S&W I have never seen.
I noticed that JJ said the only markings were the patent numbers (date?) on the cylinder. According to Jinks & Neal the earliest ones were marked "White PATENT Apr. 3, 1855" then changed to "PATENTED Apr. 1855". The patent date June 15, 1858 was added at about serial number 4,353.
Did these guns have S&W or Smith & Wesson marked anywhere on them??

(Any chance at pictures??)
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:16 AM
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If you could post a few pictures you may be able to get more accurate answers. What ever you do, don't list for sale until you verify exactly what you have, and determine it's worth. This may be an item for one of the "Big" auctions. I'd about bet there are some on this Forum that may give you just what it's worth.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:29 PM
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The only writing is on the cylinder

Patented April 3 1855,july5 ,1859&dec 18,1860

Gun has brass frame but has some nickle left on the birds head type grip. Serial number is on bottom of grip and reads 149. Grips are ivory old and very yellowed and in good shape, screws look original.

Gun works 100% and has residue in barrel from haveing been shot. Barrel is a hair over 1 and a half inches. Under the barrel is the spent case rod that pushes out the empty case and is part of the barrel.

front sight is brass and fits a slot Rear sight held by small screw and looks just like original. Brass frame has some nickle but also a black look to it. Backstrap has some engraveing.

I will get some pictures made of this and get them posted. It may take me a day or two.

I really thankyou for your input and I know this is a great find and very rare.

jim

Last edited by just jim; 02-01-2010 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Just Jim, if your gun is really a S&W Model one, 1st issue, 1st type, it's a super rare gun. Known examples can be counted on one hand. One of them, in average condition, just sold at the Las Vegas winter antique gun show for $40,000. Condition affects value, however in the case of these super rare guns, there are buyers for any condition. I suggest you have an expert examine your gun to be sure what is original & what may have been replaced, before placing it on the market, so you are sure what your are selling is the real item. Good luck, Ed #15
Does anyone have the name and the way to get hold of an expert?

jj
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just jim View Post
Does anyone have the name and the way to get hold of an expert?

jj
Jim;

May I recommend you obtain a factory historical letter? The link on the S & W website is here:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...ectionId=10504

Roy Jinks, the factory Historian, can verify its ship date and configuration (blue, nickel, barrel length, etc.) He would not be able to quote a value, but confirming your gun is original and as shipped would no doubt increase its value. Be sure to include hi-res photos of the gun and all details such as stampings, engraving, etc.
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  #11  
Old 02-01-2010, 10:02 PM
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upon further examination there is writing behind the front site but the only letter I can make out is a W

jj
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:36 PM
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Hi that gun now that you are giving us a little more info on is The Model 1 3rd issue cause of the patent numbers and the bird eye style butt grips and yes they had a serial 149 the range is from serial 1-131163 they made them from 1868-1881 and if its got only a 1 1/2 " barrel then it was modified at one time.Yours was made in 1868 therebouts probly worth $150 to $250 at the most i,m sure others would have a better idea what its worth. Go ahead and put it up for sale either in here or Gunbrokers if you choose Good Luck selling this gun ...


Rick

Last edited by Rigmover; 02-01-2010 at 10:48 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigmover View Post
Hi that gun now that you are giving us a little more info on is The Model 1 3rd issue cause of the patent numbers and the bird eye style butt grips and yes they had a serial 149 the range is from serial 1-131163 if its got only a 1 1/2 " barrel then it was modified at one time. Go ahead and put it up for sale either in here or Gunbrokers if you choose Good Luck selling this gun ...


Rick

According to the book I am reading the 3rds serial numbers started around 1130 to 3000

Also if it has been cut then they did a hecka of a job because it's got a little crown and the site cut is perfect.

Last edited by just jim; 02-01-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:56 PM
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Hi JJ if its got the rounded style birds eye grips its the 3rd Issue they came out in 1868 because also from the patent dates you're giving too i,m possitive thats what you have pics would be most needed to be 100% sure...

Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:56 PM
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That is just an S W behind the site
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:59 PM
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JJ what youre reading probly is the serial number range for the Model 1 1st issue type 3 because there were at least 6 types of 1st issue Model Ones ...

Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:02 PM
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JJ not sure what the SW behind the sight is. I know forsure that the Model 1 1st and 2nd Issues revolvers don't have the bird eye grips. they came out on the 3rd Issue Model 1's...

Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:07 PM
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Well I better make sure and send a letter to Jinks first before I sell it. Thanks for the help.

jj
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:11 PM
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JJ give me a couple of minutes and i will post a couple of pics in here then you tell me which looks the closest to your gun ok..
Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:15 PM
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Ok with me
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:18 PM
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JJ does it look like this one







the one on top is a Model 1 3rd Issue 1868-1881 and the one on the bottom is a Model 1 2nd Issue 1860-1868 one more thing does your gun have a fluted cylinder that wasn't mentioned in the earliet post if its fluted then you have the 3rd Issue .... Rick
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:30 PM
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The differences between mine and the top one are

Mine is 22 caliber and seven shot

mine is none flute cylinder

mine has brass frame

mine has ivory grips

mine has short barrel

mine has no knurling on the latch
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:33 PM
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mine has octagon barrel
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:46 PM
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We really need some pictures. What you are describing may not even be a S&W. (Or possibly a hybrid)
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:48 PM
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JJ you have the rounded style grips Thats what they call the birds eye grips like the first photo but yours are ivory right the only thing that puzzles me what you said in the earlier post about the patent dates maybe someone put this gun together using a 3rd Issue frame with a non fluted cylinder and barrel off a 1st or 2nd Issue pics would solve the mystery here though...

Rick
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:04 AM
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Just Jim, Roy Jinks can advise you on the originality of the gun, if you can send him pictures of the gun, from all angles and close up pictures of all markings and stampings. These guns were not made by Smith & Wesson, but by various contractors that supplied the parts, and S&W assembled them for shipment to distributors. Shipping records are somewhat vague, especially as to configuration, etc. The known serial numbers of these 1st, 1st,1st variations are ( info from my data base)5,11,21,22,25,39,43,81,97, 197,202 and 213. Your # 149 wold be a new addition, if it's real. There are a couple others that are only parts, or have non S&W parts. These guns have some distinguishing characteristics: Oval brass frame with round side plate, a two-piece hammer, the moveable top of which operates the cylinder stop spring, a flat spring type barrel catch, and there is a flat circular plate behind, but separate, from the cylinder. This plate revolves with the cylinder and was designed to stop fired cartridge cases from rubbing on the recoil shield and jamming the gun. There are five variations of this plate. The top of the barrel rib should have the standard Smith & Wesson , Springfield, Mass stamp. The stocks may. or may, not be numbered inside the right panel with the serial number of the gun. If all parts are original, an assembly number , or symbol, will be stamped on the grip frame, back of the barrel and on the cylinder. On early guns, these marks may be missing. Serial # 149 was made around April, 1858. and probably shipped to J.W.Storrs, NYC, S&W's sole agent. Therefore, if your cylinder has the patent dates you mention, the cylinder is a replacement, as obviously an 1858 gun cannot have an 1860 patent date. Also, if your gun has a bird's head type rounded butt, it cannot be a S&W 1st,1st,1st variation, as they were all square butt revolvers. Ed #15

Last edited by opoefc; 02-02-2010 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:20 AM
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i pulled the grips off and they have 149 on them same as the gun
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:23 AM
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I printed out the sheet and will send Roy the pictures tomorrow. Thanks again guys but I work ten hours a day and need the sleep so see you later. I will try to get pictures up tomorrow.

jj
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:09 AM
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Jim, it takes Roy about 6 weeks or so to research and write the history letter, just an FYI. Ed (opoefc) knows quite a bit about these. Looking forward to seeing those photos!
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:38 AM
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I thought the bird head grip was 3rd issue.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:37 PM
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hmont, You're right. Round butt S&W Model Ones are the third issue, therefore Just Jim's gun cannot be a 1st issue. Just Jim, Send Roy Jinks pictures of the gun, with all markings shown and ask him if he thinks the gun is a S&W, etc. If it's a round butt and the serial number is 149, Roy will not be able to letter the gun as that serial number does not compute for a round butt Model One S&W. I suspect you have a Model One copy or a gun made up from parts using a Manhattan or American Arms Co. frame, with a S&W cylinder, etc. Pictures will solve the mystery, I think. Ed #15
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:13 AM
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Here's the gun...
sn 007.jpg

sn 003.jpg



JJ
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:23 AM
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Got any ideas. I could put up some more pictures but the quality of my camera is wanting.

jj

Last edited by just jim; 02-03-2010 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:39 AM
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More pictures

sn 004.jpg

sn 006.jpg

jj
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:51 AM
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Last picture, hope you can see the engraveing

sn 002.jpg

jj
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:25 AM
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So is this a copy or should I send a letter to Jinks?

jj
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:50 AM
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Hi, given the birds-head grip frame and the low SN, plus the short barrel, it is not an early Model 1. Ed or someone else might know the maker. A neat little gun in any case.
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:27 AM
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Hi JJ cool little boot pistol but its not a Smith its a copy of some sort i,m sure someone will identify it for you there were quite a few gun makers trying to copy Smiths guns during that era...

Rick
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:41 PM
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My guess it is either a gun maker's prototype or that it's a gunsmith made "one off" pocket revolver made from various parts (S&W Model One, 2nd issue cylinder). There's no good match to it in Flayderman's catalog of early American cartridge revolvers, but it doesn't have the appearance of a foreign copy, nor does it have foreign proofs. . The barrel appears hand made. It's a neat little gun but not a S&W product. Save your money, don't send anything to Roy Jinks. Ed #15
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:31 PM
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Any guesss on how I can identifie the maker? Or could someone help me establish a value for this gun? Thoughts?

jj

Last edited by just jim; 02-03-2010 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 02-04-2010, 12:19 AM
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I was looking in a 3rd edition of Flaydermans pages 184 and 185 and the S&W No 1 Second issue had the right manufacture dates. Also noted the frame is the same but the grip is wrong. Could the barrel and grip have been special order? Can a birdshead grip be put on the seconds frame? Did smith do any special orders?

jj
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:41 AM
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Those dates are not manufacture dates, they are patent dates. Your gun has a genuine S&W Model One, 2nd issue cylinder. The frame is not the same as a S&W Model One, 2nd issue, as the sideplate is too large, the trigger sheath is too big, etc. Yes, a good gunsmith can put a birds head grip on anything, but what for? There were plenty of guns on the market at the time that already had a birdshead grip, which you could buy cheaper than to pay a gun smith to make you one. S&W did not do special orders. Like I said before, you have a gun somebody made up. It's an oddity. It's unique, but not worth a lot of money. Ed #15
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:30 AM
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What would it be worth in your mind??

jj
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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Well guys I have exhausted all my resources trying to find out what make of gun this is, can anyone help me??

jj
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:58 PM
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jj,
I'm afraid that if it's as most speculate, a one-off, a prototype or "frankengun" by some gunsmith, you will probably never be able to track down who made it.
Being that it is a neat curiosity, but that's about all. With no manufacturing provenance it's worth whatever someone will be willing to pay for it. (Probably not a whole lot.)
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