Convert 44 Russian for 44 Special

[rhmc24]

Ballistics of the two are similar so I don't expect any problems. I like the .44 DA break tops. I took the best of my .44 Russ 'shooters' and reamed the chambers in the cylinder deeper to take a .44 Special. I have shot it quite a bit and like it. Are other people doing this or am I alone?

[mxbob]

I wouldn't do it to a high condition "Collector" but for a shooter I suppose it is OK. With the current availablity of ammo and brass in 44 Russian I don't think I would do it.
Bob Ray

[opoefc]

Sounds to me like you are going backwards here. The .44 Special is nowheres the target cartridge the .44 Russian is - just look at all the years top scores were held by .44 Russians. Sure, you can get more powder in the larger cases of the .44 Special, but more powder doesn't equal more accuracy in most situations. Where's the advantage of doing such a conversion? If you want to shoot .44 Specials, get a gun chambered for that round or chambered for a .44 Magnum. Ed.

[Ballarat]

Sorry to have to say this, but its almost an act of vandalism. The 44 S&W Russian cartridge is full of history, second only to the 44 S&W American cartridge, the U.S. first centrefire cartridge. I go with Ed.

[handejector]

Nobody ever made HOT loads for the 44 Russian.

Down the road, when you are gone, what happens when someone drops some very hot Cor-Bon 44 Special ammo in that gun, and says "it must be right- it fits" ????

[rhmc24]

Thanks for your interesting observations. It is a shooter about 10% remaining nickel, but this one is my best candidate with 6" bbl, VG bore and near perfect mechanically. As for accuracy most any cartridge is more accurate than I can hold. The .44 Spec is more available than the Russ. I expect to continue what some may call vandalism. I will strip the nickel, restore the mirror finish, engrave it and install a pair of ivory grips. Probably re-nickel but not fully decided. I do my own work making heirlooms & have rescued a Colt SAA and a tired S&W TL the same way few years ago. The issue about hot loads falls into the same category as damascus shotgun barrels.

Sorry if I pushed people's buttons with this and surprised about the advice and judgmental comments it raised. I have and shoot my S&W SA & DA shooters in .44Spec, .44Russ, 44WCF plus my K22 still like new that I bought new in 1949. I'm happy to learn but don't feel I'm in need of advice. I had heard that cowboy shooters were doing what I did and maybe there might be some info to exchange.

[deadin]

I do my own work making heirlooms

Now that is an interesting statement
How long does it take for something to become an "heirloom"? I didn't know one could be "made". I thought only time and being passed down for several generations was what did it.

[rhmc24]

To be accurate I probably would better have said "making future heirlooms". My collections and my 'works' will be left to my heirs. If they keep them and they pass thru generations, they will probably in time become true heirlooms. As for "how long does it take?", I would be interested in that answer. Thanks RHM

[cgt4570]

I see no problem with it. Like you said, balistically, they are the same. No one but a true collector or expert would ever notice. It's just like the many well-used pre-war .38 Heavy Duties that got reamed out to .357. I wouldn't pass one up for a shooter.

[opoefc]

Lee has a good point, maybe down the time line, this "Future Heirloom" gets a hot load and a descendent winds up needing a seeing eye dog. .44 Russian ammo is not that hard to find and simple to reload. Unless you do some major sight reworking on the NM#3, it's not going to be an accurate shooter in .44 Special, anyway. Get a gun that has modern target sights, like a Model 29, and shoot .44 Specials in that. Otherwise it sounds like a "Lipstick on a Pig" project to me! Ed.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by cgt4570

No one but a true collector or expert would ever notice.

We would hope everybody would know!
BUT.............
Picture this- some years down the road, the heirs don't care about guns, and sell them. Gun gets traded a few times. New guy, that is NOT an expert or collector tries to figure out what caliber it is.
Is he MORE likely to find 44 Russ or 44 Spec ammo to try in it? Even if he tries both, he will assume it is/always has been 44 Spec, cause they now FIT.

"Gimme some o' those hot Cor-Bons over there. We're gonna have some fun!"

........................(everybody else please duck)

[rhmc24]

The scenario about some unaware/uncaring person shooting anything that fits is possible. When I was a kid we shot anything we could get. Shot heavy smokeless in my damascus double. I had a Colt SAA 38-40 and got some ammo that had heavy recoil and made your ears ring for hours.

The fears of someone shooting hot ammo in my 44Spec conversion set me to thinking. There are old DA S&Ws in 44-40 that are probably at risk if same cal hot rifle ammo is shot in them. Maybe there is some info about that because there are a lot of old 44-40s out there.

Did anyone ever see an old revolver blown up by overload? I have.

[tops]

It is your gun so do what you want with it. As for somebody shooting too hot a shell, I will say that is their problem. You can't be responsible for everybody. As for messing up an antique, it is still your gun. Larry

[deadin]

You are going to mark it as "Modified by RHM" aren't you?

I figure that sometime way down the road it could show up at a gunshow, auction or on-line sale listed as "Rare S&W Special Order Experimental Custom Engraved 44 Special DA Revolver!!"
Now we all know it wouldn't pass the test of a factory letter, but there are a lot of folks out there with more money than brains that could be suckered in.
I know, "it's their problem", but I still don't like to see things like that happen as it gives a bad name to gun collecting.

[rhmc24]

As a matter of fact I do mark my work, engravings, modifications and major restorations with my logo - a stylized RHM - which is a registered trade mark.

[handejector]

It is your gun so do what you want with it.

I agree with this part- up to a point. I can do what I want to with my gun. I could leave it on a playground for children to find. I could give it to a gang banger. I could lay it down in the mall and walk away.
I would not do these things because I am morally obligated NOT to.
Likewise, I won't create a hand grenade, that does NOT obviously appear to be a hand grenade, for some future generation to unwittingly be harmed by..

Originally Posted by tops

As for somebody shooting too hot a shell, I will say that is their problem. You can't be responsible for everybody.

Exactly.

With the cost of African trips now, I'm thinking of rechambering the beater Trap Doors that I can buy cheap to 458 Win. I can market them low enough to save a guy several dollars compared to Kimbers and other high dollar big game rifles.
If there's a problem, they'll be too far away to bother me.....

They should shoot good.
Once.

[RonC]

rhmc24, I'd say you found the value of submitting something such as this here. It is your .44, and you can do with it as you wish, whether any of the rest of us agree with you or not. Even the "great" Elmer Keith himself blew up an otherwise fine old Colt SAA using, shall we say, "non-standard" loads. And Lee, aren't your comments a little over-the-top here..i.e., "leaving it on the playground for children to find", etc? I realize we can express opinions here, but aren't we supposed to be civil when doing so?

Regards,
Ron

[deadin]

He must be planning to shoot full wadcutters in it. Otherwise that cylinder isn't long enough to take a regular .44 Special.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by RonC

And Lee, aren't your comments a little over-the-top here..i.e., "leaving it on the playground for children to find", etc? I realize we can express opinions here, but aren't we supposed to be civil when doing so?

Regards,
Ron

Yes, we are supposed to be civil. My remark does not have any particular degree of incivility because it is directed at the issue, and at no individual specifically.
The remark about the playground is merely used to illustrate irresponsibility, and does not remotely imply that anyone here would do such a thing.

Look back through the posts, and see which post is specifically quoted before my remark. I deliberately did NOT use the name on the quote to be less confrontational, but the idea presented was "I am not my brother's keeper." This is always true to some degree, but we are always responsible for what we do. If one does rechamber a gun to a cartridge that could potentially cause a problem, even if decades down the road, then one is still responsible for that problem, even if long dead. I am responsible for the land mine I plant, whether you step on it, or your great-great grandchild does.


Interesting that you are concerned about civility more than the possible catastrophe being discussed. Perhaps you missed the point.
The next time you take me to task, have a better grasp of the situation. ( that is just advice, not incivility)

[rhmc24]

Note to deadin --- It takes the standard off the shelf .44 Specials. I have shot plenty of them. This model S&W top break DA was made with two different lengths of cylinder. The longer one came in mid 1880s when the ..38WCF and 44WCFs were made. Few were made/sold in 38WCF but the 44WCF and 44Russian are common. Apparently later production standardized on the longer cylinder because I have guns chambered in 44Russ and 44WCF with long cylinders. I'm something of a specialist in these and in pre-1911 Colt autos.

[deadin]

The two cylinder lengths in question are 1 7/16th (1.4375") and 1 9/16ths (1.5625"). The max overall length for .44 Special in the manuals is listed as 1.62" (1.592" for 44/40).I will agree that this is close and as long as you stay away from max length you will get away with it in the longer cylinder.

Interesting fact. I just measured some of my 44/40 rounds at 1.597" and they fit my Frontier DA with no problems. I guess there is a certain amount of "slop" built into the specs.

[twaits]

Originally Posted by tops

It is your gun so do what you want with it. As for somebody shooting too hot a shell, I will say that is their problem. You can't be responsible for everybody. As for messing up an antique, it is still your gun. Larry

I tend to agree with this. In the end it's still his gun. It's not something I would personally do to my gun but he was just asking if anyone else had done this conversion.

[twaits]

rhmc24,

What kind of .44 spl loads do you shoot in your gun? I have only shot my .44-40 DA Frontier about 12 times (shots) but I shot it with black powder ammo. I don't trust these old timers to hold up with smokeless. However, If you do shoot it with smokeless I'm interested in what kind of wear, if any, you are experiencing with the gun. I've heard smokeless will shoot these old topbreaks loose or worse, blow them up. But it sounds like you've been around guns for a while. I'm interested in your observations. Thanks!

Incidentally, here's mine:

[rhmc24]

I have shot .44 Special 'cowboy', mostly I have shot 'off the shelf' Winchester .44 Spl. These day one shoots what is available and I haven't seen any cowboy lately. I haven't shot enough of either to detect any difference in the gun. The ballistics (my recall) is almost the same for the two rounds listed in the Winchester handout. The cowboy makes less noise and is more dirty to clean. I only shot one box of cowboy and one box of 44Spl plus a batch of loose rounds laying around for years. From what I read the indicator of ammo overload is increased cyl-bbl gap. I have a 44-40 which I haven't fired with about .025 gap. Gun is great otherwise and I plan to fix that. Sorry I don't have much specific info otherwise.

[rhmc24]

To clear up any mis-info about cylinder length, I measured my top break .44 Spl cylinder against my .44 Spl Triple Lock -- they are the same length.

[flagman1776]

Excuse me for coming late to the party. I get it that 44Special is much more available than 44 Russian. But why turn a brass problem into a chamber problem? Why not just trim the brass & solve the problem that way? Sure, the brass ends up with a wrong headstamp... It's tedious... Nothing worth doing is easy. Just seems to me.

[rhmc24]

You're right if you reload, which I don't. Took me little over an hour to make a reamer and do 6 chambers for a permanent fix. Now I shoot 44Specials and can shoot Russians if I get any.