A Shootable .38 Safety/Fourth

DCWilson · #1 05-29-2010, 03:22 PM

At last! I finally have reason to begin a thread in the Antiques forum.

I thought it was time to familiarize myself with the top-break models, so I picked up this .38 Safety at auction a few days ago. The latch and pinned front sight tell me it is a fourth model. The serial number is 208327, which I think puts it around 1906 or so. I'll correct that later if I find out I am wrong. [NOW KNOW ACTUAL SHIP DATE: FEBRUARY 1908]

This is just an ordinary lemon squeezer of no particular distinction and with an aging surface.

The hard rubber stocks are in good shape, and number to the gun.

Bore and chambers are in much better shape than the outside.

The blue is barely there, but a familiar patina is developing.

I figured the gun would need a good interior cleaning when I bought it, but I was surprised also to find an intermittent trigger jam problem when I picked it up. Once home, I took the sideplate off, soaked the lockwork in solvent, then blew it mostly dry a couple of times. During the cleaning I found a loose piece of metal that I will post in its own thread over in the Gunsmithing forum. The gun seems to be functioning smoothly without it, but I still need to find out what it is and why it was there. It isn't anything I recognize from an exploded diagram of a Safety Hammerless.

From the marks on the recoil shield, the gun was regularly shot at some point in its life. Once I score some appropriate ammo, I will start shooting it again.

TACC1 · #2 05-29-2010, 04:00 PM

It looks just fine to me, too. Sure would like to know what that extra piece is from. A range report would be a bonus.
TACC1

twaits · #3 05-29-2010, 08:07 PM

That is a strange looking piece of metal. Is it a safety block for the hammer perhaps?

rayj101 · #4 05-29-2010, 10:01 PM

Hi David, Could the broken piece in question be the remains of a broken hand spring? These parts are small! I would think it is possible that, during replacement, the small broken part was "lost" in the weapon. The only other explanation is a piece of a broken tool that was being used to "fish" around in the gun's innards. But, hey, the weapon works! Regards, Ray

DCWilson · #5 05-30-2010, 02:00 AM

It wouldn't be a hammer block because there is no need for one; the gun has no exposed hammer and thus cannot be fired accidentally by striking, or dropping the gun on, its hammer. It can't be the hand spring because the hand currently operates under spring tension when the gun is in any spatial orientation. (That is, the hand works always, not just on those occasions when gravity pulls it in the direction it needs to go in order to function.)

There is a certain resemblance, but not clear identity, between the broken piece and a portion of something called a "split spring." I do not understand the function of this part, but it seems to fit on a pin in the bar that drives the cylinder stop. I will have to disassemble my gun further to see whether the split spring in my gun is intact.

mmaher94087 · #6 05-30-2010, 07:59 PM

David, your mystery part appears to be one-half of the "Split Spring" that you identified in your last post. As the hammer draws to the rear, a wedge shaped projection on the hammer hits and lowers the split spring actuating and unlocking the cylinder stop. Upon firing, the wedge projection on the hammer slides through the split spring leaving the cylinder stop in place and keeps the cylinder locked in battery.
The split spring is a hard part to find, and usually pricy for their size. Mike #283

DCWilson · #7 05-30-2010, 09:27 PM

Mike, thank you. I am kind of drifting in the direction of that interpretation, but my inexperience with these revolvers keeps me from embracing it automatically. I am still puzzled how the cylinder stop can seemingly function as designed if the split spring is broken. As far as I can tell, the stop currently has spring tension at every proper stage of the rest, carry-up, hammer release, and trigger rebound cycle. Could that happen if a portion of the split spring were still in place?

I wonder if the split spring was replaced at some time in the past, but a portion of the old spring stayed behind unobserved? That seems preposterous to me, but I guess it could happen.

I need to take that trigger assembly apart and see what is in there where the split spring goes. That requires me to figure out how to release the trigger guard, which I couldn't do when I was in this gun two days ago. Can you help with that?

gerald mcdonald · #8 05-31-2010, 12:35 AM

Did I read here a few days ago that the front of trigger guard has a small lip on the inside and you push the whole guard to the rear towards the grip then pull down?

DCWilson · #9 05-31-2010, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerald mcdonald

Did I read here a few days ago that the front of trigger guard has a small lip on the inside and you push the whole guard to the rear towards the grip then pull down?

I know the trigger guard is essentially a huge spring, but I have been unable to budge it in a way that would make it pop loose. I'm afraid to put too much force into it. Is there a pin or internal piece that needs to be removed first?

Dave Chicoine's instruction manual says it is the rear of the trigger guard that pops loose. I'm just not sure how I am supposed to rap the back of it with the frame in the way.

mmaher94087 · #10 05-31-2010, 10:23 AM

"I am still puzzled how the cylinder stop can seemingly function as designed if the split spring is broken." Think of a wishbone where one end is joined solidly and the other two ends pinch together but are not solid. The solid end attaches to the cylinder stop and the pinched ends are first cammed down to release the cylinder stop, then "split" by the wedge on the hammer during firing. The broken split spring will continue to function for some time even if one-half of the wishbone is missing. Eventually, the wear on the remaining half of the split spring will cause the revolver to "lock up" as the "hand" can't turn the cylinder because the cylinder wouldn't unlock.

I believe this was the Achillies heel for the one hundred U.S. Army Test Revolvers sent to the Springfield Armory in 1888 for test and evaluation. After reading the test procedures that they were subjected to I'm surprised that any of the 100 survived.

As for the triggerguard, Gerald is correct. Rap the front to upset the grime and dried grease, then squeeze towards the grip while pulling down. Mike #283

DCWilson · #11 05-31-2010, 10:51 AM

Mike, thank you. That helps my understanding a lot.

I read that ordnance report the other day. Holy cow! Just reading about the rust test put my teeth on edge.

Interesting that the Smiths were more accurate than the Colts.

mmaher94087 · #12 05-31-2010, 11:20 AM

That rust test was brutal!! Of the one hundred revolvers returned to the factory after the test, only a handfull were in decent enough shape to be sold. And then sold only to employees of the factory, if I understand correctly. If the rusting was not stopped entirely it would continue to eat away at the innerds undetected until something failed. The most likely candidate would be the relatively thin split spring. The split spring failed on my first Test Revolver and needed replacing. What a rusty mess that spring was.

Please let us (me) know the outcome of your project. Mike #283

cflier · #13 05-31-2010, 01:05 PM

Hi Mike & David,
Sorry to drag the topic further away but if you are right Mike I'm going to have to change some of the information in my display for the S&WCA meeting this summer. In Volume 12, Number 1 - Spring 1980 of the S&WCA Journal Charlie Pate wrote that the guns were sold at Auction by the US Gov at the Springfield Arsenal on May 28 1901 to a Mr. Charles Godfrey of NY. If you have other information please let me know so that I can change the wording in that section of my display.

Mark

Dosgatos · #14 05-31-2010, 01:07 PM

Hello David - if you need parts I may be able to help you. I bought some early hand ejector parts along with some top-break parts on fleaBay a while back.

Peter

mmaher94087 · #15 05-31-2010, 04:17 PM

Mark,
With my memory, like Smith & Wesson, all things are possible. Trust Charlie. I wonder where I got "sold only to employees.."? I'll need to scan my notes and reference material. I would have bet money on it. Mike #283

DCWilson · #16 06-01-2010, 02:08 PM

Well, I finally worked up the courage to pull the pins and disassemble the gun completely. To my astonishment, I found that the cylinder stop was mated to an intact and functioning split spring, as shown in the photo below. So the piece of scrap metal I found inside the gun was a piece of the predecessor split spring that was simply left there after an earlier repair.

I flattened the no-longer-a-mystery piece a bit so you can see that it is indeed part of the split spring, which is the shape on top of the cylinder stop bar.

Putting the gun back together was an experience. I am fascinated with the compact design, but I would hate to have to repair one of these on the fly if it went wrong and needed a fix in the field.

I may want more of these guns.