So on Saturday, I saw a friend of mine was selling a first model of 1891 single shot at a gun show. I got all excited because of the rarity. It was a 22, but still rare. So I bought it. Its a 6 in and nickel. Stock is gorgeous, finish has only about 50% left.

Well today, I was going to post it on here to share with you all when I became concerned. The gun has 4 characteristics which have me concerned about its authenticity:

1) The SN is not on the front strap. Every reference I had including pics of other 1891 single shot 1st models have the SN on the front strap. On my gun, it is on the bottom of the butt, like any other S&W revolver.

2) The grips are not SN'd at all. Almost as if they were ordered as factory extras....

3) The barrel is not numbered in the usual spot. Its not numbered at all. Could it be a later add on?

4) The latch is not numbered, at all. Added on?

The SN is 10XXX. I suppose the saying "never say never with S&W" holds some merit here but I really suspect this to be be a 3rd model 38 SA with a later S&W 22 LR SS barrel. What say you guys? Is the SN early enough for this to be a rare early variation?

I think you are correct in believing this is NOT an original First Model Single Shot, for all the reasons you mentioned with the serial numbers missing form the barrel and on the butt and not the front grip strap.

In the Neal and Jinks book, they mention, and I quote:

"Although a total of 3, 198 single shot barrels were made, only 1,251 were originally made up as single shots. The remaining 1,947 were sold either by supplying single shot barrels for 38 Single Action Third Models on request of prior purchase, or by supplying extra single shot barrels in different calibers for people already owning single shots, or by finishing up complete guns from frams and barrels left in stock. Of the 1,251 originally made, 862 were 22 caliber, 229 were 32 caliber and 160 were 38 caliber."

Even though it's probably not an original single shot, I bet it would still be fun to shoot and accurate too.

I dug out my letter because of some discrepancies with my first model. Somewhere down the line I think the latch was replaced on mine. According to my letter the SN is located on the forestrap of the grip. I also have the original black checkered grips which are in excellent condition and there is no number on them. I have fired it with subsonic .22 ammo but the mainspring is worn out and it had a hard time with light hammer strikes on the modern ammo. Regards, Chef

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Alabama Hunter Ed Instructor

Is the gun an antique?

I would think so myself because even if was a real single shot, 10XXX is relatively early. The 1891 revolver debuted in 1891 while the single shot debuted in 1893, IIRC. So its probably an antique, right?

The other thing that I guess proves its a 1891 revolver aka 3rd model 38 SA, is that the mechanism does in fact have a hand to rotate a cylinder. If the gun was originally made as a single shot, it would not have a hand? (I read that in my Neal and Jinks book last night).

Moral of the story - always check barrel and latch SNs. I did not, assuming that the owner did and he did not. We talked about it and I'm getting a free 38 SA 2nd model which is nice of him.

I was under the impression that because the 1st Model Single Shots shared the same frame with the 3rd Model .38 Single Action, they all had the hand to rotate the cylinder. Anyone else care to chime in?

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1891SingleShot

Well even so, if the SN is on the butt, its probably not correct? Or is there a chance its right?

\

Probably not.

Never say never with S&W. But the chances are slim to none..

The serial number is not on the list in Jinks & Neal. In fact there are no numbers in the 10,xxx series shown as being assigned to the Single Shots, but the list is acknowledged as not being complete. A $50 factory letter probably will show that the gun left the factory as a revolver, but then again....... (Or it will show as "open" and you will be no better off in your question.)

The serial placement and the lack of numbers on the barrel and latch pretty much point to an after market assembly.

In any case I would still consider it as collectible as the assembly was probably done a long time ago. (Just not quite as good as an original.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I know of only one other 1891 Single Shot in 22 LR, in the 10,000 range, # 10,019, it has a 10 inch barrel and is Blue.
H. M. Pope

Gorings S&W
The wear looks the same on your barrel and frame. Somewhere out there is a revolver barrel and cylinder with your frame number on it. Since the serial number is located on the butt, showing in may have been an 1891 Revolver with standard grip, then the barrel should have std. sights on it also. If it were a part of a combo set, it should have all been numbered the same. The earliest set shown in the book is serial number 1489 in .22, 6035 in .32, and 2776 in .38.

The target grips, from what I have seen, have no numbers on most.
The barrel most likely was added years ago, ordered as an after thought and would have no numbers on it or the latch.

H.M.Pope

There was a 10,382 sold at auction recently and it was a blued 10 inch with G.B.N engraved on the left side. Also RIA sold a 99% nickel 10 inch with the early 10,190 serial number that was listed in the book of incomplete numbers.

Both of these guns had the S&W Trademark on the right of frame. There is one other noted that way in the 8,500 range. The remainder of the trade marked guns start around 15,200.

So, if its a 38 SA 3rd model revolver aka 1891 model, or possibly (1% chance) a real 1891 single shot, is it an antique at 105XX?

That serial, chronologically, falls right about at the breaking point between antique and not antique, so only a factory letter will tell.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Here's some numbers and the dates shipped that I had years ago.
# 14478 Shipped, 12-1894.
# 16274 Shipped, 6-1896.
# 17877 Shipped, 6-1897.

I think it would be safe to say that a First Model SS with a serial number in the 10500 range would have been made before 1898 and fall into the antique range.
H. M. Pope

The model of 91 3rd Model .38 SA with serial number 11876 was shipped 8-22-1893.

My Model of 91 First Model, Serial Number 134XX shipped on March 21, 1893 according to my factory letter. Hope this helps. Regards, Chef

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Alabama Hunter Ed Instructor

I have been told that the frames for the 1st Model Single Shot and the 3rd Model .38 SA, were all made pre-1898. All 28,128 that were used for these two configurations. Maybe someone in the know can help us here.

Serial numbers of other 1st Model Single Shots and shipping dates:
15417 5-25-1894
15635 11-15-1895
15878 2-20-1896
19075 2-4-1901
21667 5-28-1904

I still think all 1st models are antiques! or are they?

Terry

Some seem to think that the born on date is when the frame has a serial number, is assembled, test fired, and ready to be sold. Others seem to think that the gun is not born till it is sold and shipped. I don't think we can have it both ways just to please us. I think ATF says that anything "made" before 1898 is an antique and has nothing to do when it is shipped. That could be a good thing for us even if some don't agree with it. I know that a lot of First Model 1891 were shipped long after 1898.


Can anyone tell me why some use those X's, instead of the full serial number.
I know a lot of guys do that but don't know why.
H. M. Pope

I know that the books say that all .44 DA Top-Break frames were made pre 1899 even though they were cataloged up to 1913 and all are considered as antique.
I haven't heard that the .38 SA 3rd was the same, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially after seeing some of the serials posted here that shipped in the 1890's.

As for "having it both ways". S&W did not or does not have records of when a piece was actually "made" so the accepted way (including the ATF) of dating a Smith has been by the shipping date. (For which records do exist.)
Apparently in some cases (The .44 DA) some kind of records exist that show all actually made prior to 1899.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Like most things there are exceptions, I still go with the idea that when the frame has a serial number, is assembled, it's test fired, put in a box, and is ready to be sold it is born and "alive" and is a real firearm no matter when it is sold, It's my opinion that some First Model 1891's were made and sold after 1898.

Many times the gun is sold years after it is made, some just don't sell as fast as others, I know the accepted way of dating a S&W has been by the shipping date but does that mean it is correct for all S&W's, I think not.

One good example is a bunch of "new" never sold before S&W M-1940 Light Rifles I had bought in the 1970's, just because they were sold in the 1970's and may letter as being shipped in the 1970's most know that they were not made in the 1970's.

This is not just with S&W's, it happens with most large Manufacturers, very few if any make guns in numerical order and sell them in numerical order in the year they were made.
H. M. Pope

Hello to all,

Bringing up this old thread due to new information on this subject.

Did the factory ever stamp a serial number on the butt of a Single Shot and ship it that way?
YES... Serial number 13934 is a First Model Single Shot with a six inch barrel and letters as being shipped that way on 12-3-1892. The serial number is located on the butt, under the target grips. All numbers match.

Did the factory ever ship a Single Shot without a number on the barrel?
YES... Serial number 19988 is a First Model Single Shot Blued, 10 inch barrel .38 S&W , Letters as being shipped on 11-23-1901 as a blued, 10 inch barrel .38 S&W caliber. All the other numbers match but missing the barrel number.

I have noticed a great number after serial number 21,000 that do not have barrel numbers and do not always have a matching latch numbers.
An even greater number of Target Extended Grips were not marked with the serial number.

It has been said before, never say never!!

Terry Wagner

The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ, published by James Wesley, which is the best source for antique serial number ranges, classifies both the S&W 32 & 38 Single Action revolvers as antiques.

All S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899
All S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Just to add to this thread :
I own Model 1891 caliber .22, 8 inch barreled SS with a s/n of 8039, which appears on Neal & Jinks list as one of the original 862.
It is serial numbered on the butt under the target extension grips. The latch and barrel also carry the same number. The grips are not numbered.
Kind of ironic, as in the paragraph before the list, the authors state "An original Single Shot pistol can be identified by the fact that the serial number is located on the grip strap."
The pistol also has British proof marks, and no hand to rotate the cylinder. I guess I should get this one lettered.

WB

If it has no hand to rotate a cylinder wouldn't it be 2nd model? The original poster was lucky to have had a 6" barrel, which was the least produced. On my gun, which is a 3rd model, it has an 8" barrel, but a non matching number 2nd model barrel. When I spoke to Roy about it he commented, target shooters then and now alter their equipment to get any shooting advantage. I could just about picture a couple fellows at a gun club and swapping barrels because the 8" was just a little lighter and "felt" better and improved his shooting.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I have a first model with no cylinder finger, of course, pistol heavily modified for competitive shooting by owner & re-barreled by HM POPE. Wonder if serial number is listed in Jink's book, 19872, could someone look who has it or list?

Attached Images

DSCF2588.jpg (70.0 KB, 51 views)

The highest number .22 (in N&J) is 16785 (for a single gun)-----highest number .22 as part of a combination set is 18873. Highest number .32 is 15979------highest .38 is 15435.

I suspect (but do not know) these numbers mark the end of what I will call "regular production"-------defined as production for which (production) records exist. I suspect further that all numbers higher than these came into being in response to special orders. I suspect also that these special order were a mix of single gun and multiple gun orders. I suspect all this because it makes sense.

To wit: "Regular production" stopped when the powers that be decided they had made enough guns for the market (as it was perceived at the time). (All these guns were textbook guns----which is to say they were produced in batches, all had serial numbers on the front strap, and each of the several components were numbered.)

When they found out (via receipt of a special order) they had not produced enough guns for the market, they produced more. I deem it likely any/all special orders for single guns were produced by the Service Department. Given they were producing only one gun, there was no need to number anything (other than the frame) because there would be no problem getting the barrel and latch back together with their frame after finishing. Likewise, if they produced three guns (a 6", an 8", a 10"), the frames and latches would be numbered---and the barrels would not be numbered. And so it goes with all sorts of combinations I can envision to explain why some stuff is numbered, and some isn't.

And then there are the so-called "transitional models"-----guns which appear to be 2nd Models, but are 1st Model frames, and are numbered as first models---and are also numbered as 2nd Models. These make perfect sense right up until you find such a gun carrying a three or four digit 2nd Model number. Then you have to make up a new explanation. Mine goes like this: "Hey, I found this old frame in the bottom of a box----what should I do with it?" "You should make it into a gun, and sell it!" There are other explanations, but they're complicated; and they don't make a whole lot of sense. But that's alright, because NOBODY can prove you're wrong!!

Ralph Tremaine

It should be noted anybody can make up a story/reason to explain why a certain gun is "right" (even if it isn't). Conversely, anybody can make up a reason why a certain gun is "wrong" (even if it isn't). I have an 8" .32. The number is 14272. I say the gun is right. Jinks says the gun is right---after holding it in his hands and sitting and staring. N&J says it's a .22. The letter says it's a 10" .22. Now, make up a story.

The single shot pistol was shipped in 1903 directly to Dr. R H Sayre, so was likely a special order. It has all matching numbers on parts.

Hi fella's, I figured I would give you another serial # to add to your folders. A couple of years ago I found a model of 91 at a local auction. A letter from Mr. Jinks states that it is a S&W .38 Single Action Third Model
(Model of 1891). Serial # 6719 was shipped May 8th, 1893 and delivered to Meacham Firearms CO, St. LOUIS, MO. It shipped with a 3.25 inch barrel, blue finish and checkered black hard rubber qrips. Sometime after that, the owner ordered a set of pearl grips for it. It could also be ordered with an inserted spur trigger at which time it was called the Single Action Mexican Model.
Serial #'s match on latch, cylinder and bottom of butt strap. I can't find a # on the barrel.
I would like to find a pair of the black hard rubber grips, but the pearls look great on the pistol. The action works great for a 126 year old gun.

Sorry, but I have to ask. Given you cannot find a number on the barrel, is it because there is no number or because you don't know where to look? If the latter, the number (if any) will be found in the cavity where the latch lives-------almost always on the right hand side---on the portion of the barrel facing to the rear. If there is no number there, odds are the barrel left Springfield by way of the Parts Department--------as a spare,or as an accessory item-----and almost certainly not on a (new) gun.

The number (if any) is best viewed by lifting (and holding) the latch up. Good light is a must---magnification doesn't hurt.

Ralph Tremaine

Hi Ralph, thanks for the info.I held the latch open and cleaned 126 years of build up off of the inside of the latch and low and behold I found the serial number. All four numbers are matching. I have a complete model of 91 except for the hard rubber grips. I will post some pics if I figure out how to do it. Thanks again.

olde-dawg ....... Tom

As Robert Stack would say on Unsolved Mysteries - UPDATE! Before we get into that, thanks to everyone who posted the great info in this thread - it was very helpful, and I have learned much since 2010 due in part to members of this forum sharing good info, such as in this thread

Since the original mystery which I posted this thread about in 2010, there have been some developments First, the friend of mine I bought this 1891 from gave me a S&W 38 2nd model SA revolver for free to make up for the gun's identity being misrepresented. I don't believe he did this misrepresentation intentionally, and so I took the free bonus revolver and thanked him. He is actually a Stevens Arms, derringer and curiosa/cane gun collector, so he is far from an expert on S&Ws. I later sold the bonus 38 SA 2nd revolver to make up for the cost of the 1891 vs its actual value, in its current configuration.

I have lettered many of my revolvers, for one reason or another, and I decided to letter this one just for the heck of it. I ended up getting an interesting letter...



So needless to say, things worked out in the end. I wish I had the original cylinder assembly, but hey, I can't get lucky all the time

Here is the 1891 "revolver" with its 1st and 2nd model 38 SA brethren.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

So that's where my other barrel went, huh?!!

I came upon an 8" .32 caliber 1st Model Single Shot not all that long ago. I looked in N&J to see if the number (14272) was listed. There it was---------in the .22 caliber section.(???!!!!!!!!!!!!) This is an entirely kosher gun, so I decided it shipped as a .22---with an extra .32 caliber barrel----makes sense---right? Then the letter arrives. It says my 8" .32 is a 10" .22-----and they left out the part about it being shipped with an extra .32 caliber barrel.

I figure Granny Goodcook, the nice little old lady in Final Assembly, matched up my gun with its grips, wrote the serial number on the box, stuffed the gun in the box, and sent it off to the vault-------only she wrote MY number on, and stuffed MY gun in a 10" .22 box. So there it sits. Then along comes the picker, grabs that 10" .22 box, and takes it to Shipping. They did their thing. The receiving guy at the distributor says, "Hey-----they sent the wrong gun to us---we ordered a .22---they sent a .32----what should I do?" The boss said, "No problem---we can sell it---put it in stock." And he did---and they sold it-----and----------------------------THE END!!!!!!!!!

Ralph Tremaine